Well... I mean...



$12,306 and gets 29/36 mpg

versus



$16,330 and gets 25/37 mpg

A better average fuel economy for 25% less price. Plus, a brand associated with reliability.

12/26/2008 4:47:41 PM

Quote :

"40mpg is overkill. "

Thinking like that is part of the reason why American automakers are in the shitter right now.


Even if gas costs 35cents per gallon, in today's market you're going to draw more customers if you're producing a quality product that gets 100mpg vs a shitty one that gets 35mpg.

The longstanding truth of it is that these companies haven't lead their market segments in anything but trucks for going on 30 years now. Now that people are starting to smarten up and realize that you can save money to spend on better things than gas, the one leg they've had to stand on is being swept out from under them.

40mpg is NOT overkill for today's consumer. Any average Joe buying a vehicle at this point is going to look for the one with the best fuel economy, especially when their livelihood depends on it.

12/26/2008 5:11:52 PM

Quote :

"A better average fuel economy for 25% less price. Plus, a brand associated with reliability."

that car looks like a buggy; who would want to purchase such a vehicle. All you need is a soccer mom blabbing on the cell phone swerving in her behemoth Yukon and that car would look like nothing more than a piece of scrap metal on the side of I40

12/26/2008 5:15:33 PM

Not buying the car for the look is fine, but not buying it because "there are other huge cars on the road" is stupid and only creates at chicken and egg scenario. If no one buys smaller cars there will never be smaller cars on the road will there?

12/26/2008 6:20:32 PM

Fine for the looks

12/26/2008 7:21:21 PM

Quote :

"They can't just let the unprofitable/excess ones sort themselves out--there are too many state law protections and contracts with individual dealers. Even if the individual dealer stays afloat, it ends up costing the automaker a lot."

yeah, i understand that. i'm just not okay with telling dealerships they have to close when the free market may be dictating otherwise, no matter how poor performance might be. bankruptcy should ease the financial/contractual/legal obligations to the point that gm can make the changes it needs to while "naturally" allowing a large number of dealers to go under. forcefully closing more dealerships might be neccessary later on, but imo it shouldn't be a first line action.

[Edited on December 26, 2008 at 8:36 PM. Reason : .]

12/26/2008 8:36:13 PM

Okay, people calling for "minimum 40 MPG fleet" need to sit down and do a little math lesson;

If you're out to reduce oil consumption, your best bet on the margin is to improve the fuel economy of the worst performers in the fleet. An example:

For the same driving distance, an improvement from 15 to 20 MPG will yield double the fuel savings than from 30 to 40 MPG. Which means if you're out to improve the fleet, the place to start is by simply raising the floor, rather than by demanding ultra-high performers (where return on the margin is much poorer.)

Thus, despite how lousy of an idea it was for the Big Three to bet the house on the SUV market, it actually meant that looking at the hybrid SUV concept made sense - the marginal improvements in fuel economy meant rather significant savings, despite the meager improvement in the per-gallon mileage.

[Edited on December 26, 2008 at 9:07 PM. Reason : .]

12/26/2008 9:05:36 PM

Quote :

"That whole generation of people who likes Buick here in the US is about to die off and be replaced by an even larger demographic that's used to driving more reliable foreign cars."

Everytime I see a Buick, I cringe. They are by far the ugliest cars on the road today.

Quote :

"never going to happen realistically, at least not for many many decades. i don't think a continuing future in petroleum based cars is a bad thing in addition to exploring other ideas, but we certainly need to at least loosen the death grip oil companies have on the manufacturers and the government. the technology is there do to a lot more, it's just withheld and stamped out. "

I bet that in no more than 10 years, the majority of new cars sold will be hybrids or electrics. There will be gas cars for decades to come, but electric is going to take off big i bet. It would have happened by now if we had better batteries.

12/26/2008 11:58:30 PM

yes, but when the electric grid is 50% coal, what have we gained with electric and hybrid cars?

a whole lot of nasty battery waste

12/27/2008 12:18:46 AM

if subs can have nuclear reactors in them why cant cars?

12/27/2008 1:18:14 AM

$$

12/27/2008 1:35:36 AM

I would offer a buyout for both management/salary employees and union workers on old contract. I would also make drastic cuts to incentives for all tiers of management, but especially upper.

12/27/2008 1:59:41 AM

Quote :

"i'm just not okay with telling dealerships they have to close when the free market may be dictating otherwise, no matter how poor performance might be."

I hear you, but it's not the government telling dealerships they have to close. Currently, government is impeding the free market from paring down dealerships to an efficient level. That's not the whole problem, but it is a significant one.

12/27/2008 5:05:33 AM

Quote :

"I bet that in no more than 10 years, the majority of new cars sold will be hybrids or electrics."

In 1991 as a young lad watching back to the future I surely thought we'd have flying cars by 2015!!!

Maybe we just need Mr. Fusion this will solve all our problems...



[Edited on December 27, 2008 at 11:49 AM. Reason : l]

12/27/2008 11:47:23 AM

Quote :

"Thinking like that is part of the reason why American automakers are in the shitter right now. Even if gas costs 35cents per gallon, in today's market you're going to draw more customers if you're producing a quality product that gets 100mpg vs a shitty one that gets 35mpg. The longstanding truth of it is that these companies haven't lead their market segments in anything but trucks for going on 30 years now. Now that people are starting to smarten up and realize that you can save money to spend on better things than gas, the one leg they've had to stand on is being swept out from under them. 40mpg is NOT overkill for today's consumer. Any average Joe buying a vehicle at this point is going to look for the one with the best fuel economy, especially when their livelihood depends on it."

Ok.

wake up out of your dream world. Have you seen the majority of the cars they produce? They dont need to be making 40mpg cars. They need to start working on cars that can compete. The american car companys are NOT in the "shitter" just because they dont produce 40mpg cars. Honda, hyundai, toyota, and subaru produce a total of 2 car models that get 40mpg.

12/27/2008 4:13:55 PM

Get Pontiac back to being the "sporty" brand...I realize they tried to do this with the GTO and the G8 with mixed results but stuff like the G6 and a Pontiac SUV isn't gonna cut it.

Drop Buick, all the people that drive them will be dead in 10 years

Drop GMC, there is not one single vehicle on that nameplate that is different from a Chevy other than adding some luxury. Kill the brand and add a Denali version or something to the Silverados, Trailblazers, etc.

Make a major improvement/redesign to the Impala like they did on the Malibu.

12/27/2008 10:25:10 PM

Quote :

"If you're out to reduce oil consumption, your best bet on the margin is to improve the fuel economy of the worst performers in the fleet."

i, too, understand math

and possibly

i, too, read that article that suggested we start listing things in "gallons per mile" rather than "miles per gallon"

12/28/2008 2:03:40 AM

I I had complete control of GM, I would eliminate GMC, delete buick, shit on saab, make saturns little plastic shitboxes like they should be, and bring back oldsmobile as an all-rwd brand.

12/28/2008 2:17:01 AM

I do know that Buick is successful overseas, so maybe it needs to be exclusively an overseas brand like Opel (although Opels were once sold in the US). Better off making Pontiac the RWD brand than resurrecting Oldsmobile. It would cost too much to bring a brand back.

[Edited on December 28, 2008 at 2:55 AM. Reason : although I can understand an affinity for Oldsmobile]

12/28/2008 2:54:48 AM

It wouldnt cost anything to bring back Olds if they shit-canned Saab and Buick. Opel and too for that matter, all the little econo cars would now fall under Chevrolet, all the way up to the impala. Any big luxury that Buick had gets facelifted or totally replaced with RWD help from Holden division.
Other changes

V8 is offered in the small trucks.

ALL minivans are RWD or AWD.

All 4wd trucks get solid front axles.

Cars that look like cars again and not spaceships.


Fuck it, Saturn gets the axe too, all remaining stock of Saab and Saturn parts goes to eBay, the project is staffed by employees of the former divisions who can either participate or get two weeks pay and walking papers.


GM, moreso than Ford, can flip shit around real quick and shit all over Chrysler. The general never cared about the world before, it was where you went when you needed a car. Now everythings changed, its time to remind american people what car company is loyal to america. USA #1

12/28/2008 3:30:30 AM

i would take a dump

12/28/2008 3:31:35 AM

Quote :

"Ok. wake up out of your dream world. Have you seen the majority of the cars they produce? They dont need to be making 40mpg cars. They need to start working on cars that can compete. The american car companys are NOT in the "shitter" just because they dont produce 40mpg cars. Honda, hyundai, toyota, and subaru produce a total of 2 car models that get 40mpg."

Hold on, bucky.

I never said it was the sole reason, I said it was one of the reasons. I've outlined some of the others in that very same post.

They need to be making SOMETHING that's better than the shit that they're pushing right now.

You're a fool if you think that making your entire fleet 40mpg+ doesn't give you a market edge in today's economy. Their cars NOW can't compete. If you're going to retool the whole fleet to be competitive with the foreigns, then why not build in a value-add like that? It's common sense.

12/28/2008 4:18:52 AM

Do you think engineers sit around and go...."We should just go ahead and make our cobalt line 40mpg capable. Nah man, fuck that. Lets go for 35!" . There isnt a single car maker producing the car that you have decided will help save a brand. Do you know why there isnt one? Because a 2000lb vehicle isnt safe and you cant sell an american a car with 70hp.

12/28/2008 9:52:35 AM

That's because engineers don't drive the business.


If they do, then there's a huge fucking problem. And we go back to the point I made earlier.

Quote :

"Thinking like that is part of the reason why American automakers are in the shitter right now."

Here's more reasons:

You've got to spend money to make money. American firms are notoriously lax at R&D. Why spend money on making something better when you can cut corners and keep selling old shit to old people? That's the American way.

Being in the oil companies' back pocket - how else do you explain wastes like FlexFuel and Ethanol based cars without a sincere investment into electric cars, or even a worthwhile one into hybrids until this point?



This is just a hypothetical anyway, the whole thread's about what you would do as head of GM.

I know if I were head, people who clung to backwards-ass thinking like this would be shut the fuck out of my boardroom and would find their walking papers soon enough.

[Edited on December 28, 2008 at 10:54 AM. Reason : 40mpg is nothing. The company that differentiates itself and tries is the one that survives.]

12/28/2008 10:43:26 AM

Have you ever worked on the development of a product before?

I'm not trying to call you an idiot but I think you are out of touch with the reality in regards to product development. You are given a time frame, an amount you can spend, and specs you must meet. The specs you must meet (mpg in this case) is a direct reflection of the time and money you can spend.

Why don't we improve the interior design, increase reliability, and increase MPG while we are at it!

12/28/2008 10:52:19 AM

I work for a product development firm, so yes. I've put 7 products to market so far, with 4 of them being done from the ground up by the team I'm on.

I'm not out of touch with reality insofar as the spec process goes at all. I think like a designer, because I am one.

If you put enough money into the proper channels, you don't run into these sorts of problems.

40mpg is just a marker. Honda's got cars that will meet it, easy. So why can't GM create something that can? There's absolutely no reason.... unless GM's not willing to put the time or money into proper R&D. Surprise, surprise, that's the issue.

There is a fundamental issue with american engineers leading the way at most companies - they are lazy, they're out of ideas, and they're penny-pinching spendthrifts. Who wants to bother making something new when you can get paid union wages and benefits to chamfer a line? There's an entire culture of complacency.

It goes beyond the auto market - look at all of the companies that have been stalwarts of american industry for the past 100 years that don't have a dynamic, personal approach that is used to listen to the consumer and provide what they need. Ignoring tech companies that have been around for less than 25 years, most of the big players in American industry are hurting bad because they piss all over the consumer and make the same shit year over year.


The difference here is I'm telling you that these sorts of things matter to the consumer based on hard, factual, and scientific data that I myself gathered. I've helped to conduct studies on the appeal of foreign cars vs americans. I sat in cars with 60 different people and talked about what they do and don't like.

You're sitting on the other side of the table telling me the opposite based on your opinion, and based on old data, rooted ultimately in stereotyped thought.

You can't apply a stereotype to everyone all the time, because at some point the way they think about things will change due to some external factors. That is what is happening to the public now. Gas hitting $5 a gallon this summer hit the American public in ways it never suspected. It was like showing fire to a cave man.

[Edited on December 28, 2008 at 11:20 AM. Reason : .]

12/28/2008 11:10:30 AM

bring back GEO

12/28/2008 12:02:13 PM

Quote :

"40mpg is just a marker. Honda's got cars that will meet it, easy. So why can't GM create something that can? There's absolutely no reason.... unless GM's not willing to put the time or money into proper R&D. Surprise, surprise, that's the issue. There is a fundamental issue with american engineers leading the way at most companies - they are lazy,"

Yeah shitty little buggy looking go carts like the honda fit.

Although I do not necessarily blame the engineers for falling behind in product development. Usually projects with specs and shit are the brain fart of some MBA or other business consultant, who knows what the american people "want", and the engineers use find the means to accomplish this vision. So blame the leadership of GM.

12/28/2008 12:02:56 PM

Quote :

"If you put enough money into the proper channels, you don't run into these sorts of problems."

Guess who pays for this R&D?

You want to sell a cobalt for civic prices? I dont blame the engineers at GM one bit for the lopsided product line. Engineers dont make those calls. People like kildjadn do.



[Edited on December 28, 2008 at 12:19 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2008 12:18:56 PM

^^ Fair enough, that is the case. But those engineers don't innovate, when compared to their foreign counterparts. They make the shit and pass the buck, which is just as bad.


^ Apparently no one at GM has been paying for their R&D. That's the point I've been making.

Designers don't make the call as to what hits the market - if they did we'd all be driving around in cars made out of elastic sheets stretched over high tensile wires.

You just don't get it, do you? I'm not trying to be rude, but it sincerely feels like I'm talking over your head.

12/28/2008 12:35:35 PM

the thing about the unions, is that it's not the current union agreements that are the biggest problems. it's the ones from decades ago that are still costing the companies that are the biggest problem. and these can't be fixed without the company going bust and plenty of retired people losing benefits they were depending on. there is no easy solution to these problems. of course a better/cheaper health care system in this country would be really helpful.

12/28/2008 1:02:49 PM

Quote :

"engineers don't innovate, when compared to their foreign counterparts"

you are semi-correct about this but you are digging into a WHOLE new can of worms that is a symptom of a much greater issue within this country far beyond just the auto industry.

Go to an engineering graduation ceremony and what do you see...

3/4 of the PH.D candidates. and 1/2 the Masters grads are from asia, india, or some other part of the world besides teh US......

This has to do with the misplacement of a lot of the labor within this country. Why work your ass off in engineering when you can get a fancy business, marketing or accounting degree to be one of those ritzy wall street tycoons.

12/28/2008 4:56:54 PM

saying "___ mpg" is overkill is the dumbest thing i've ever read.

12/28/2008 5:39:55 PM

Quote :

"you are semi-correct about this but you are digging into a WHOLE new can of worms that is a symptom of a much greater issue within this country far beyond just the auto industry."

oh believe me, I know.

12/28/2008 9:00:01 PM

Quote :

"There isnt a single car maker producing the car that you have decided will help save a brand. Do you know why there isnt one? Because a 2000lb vehicle isnt safe and you cant sell an american a car with 70hp."

Absolutely. I love hearing conspiracy theorists talk about how we've had the technology to make really fuel efficient cars but some boogie man (oil companies, whatever) is stopping them. Nobody wants to drive the tiny, slow, dangerous shitboxes of the late 70s and early 80s. If we had direct injected 1.5 liter engines in 2000 lb crappers I'm sure they'd do 50mpg easy, but nobody wants to drive shit like that. They'd rather have 30-35mpg and have some comfort, safety, and a bit more room.

12/29/2008 12:31:00 AM

i hope there is a "Green Race" that will match the Space Race's impact on science and technology education at the younger ages

because that shit is severely lacking

and i'm sure some of you are going to say "OMG "GREEN" IS FOR FUCKING FOOLS"

and you're the people who are going to ensure some other country owns our car companies in about 12 years

12/29/2008 3:24:46 AM

the problem with our auto manufacturers goes far beyond them not being "green" enough.

get real with it.

While possibly true for the asians car sales; I do not think many of the european brands sold in America rack up their sales figures b.c american love their environmental friendliness.

12/29/2008 7:24:42 AM