http://www.worktruckonline.com/News/Story/2008/05/Port-of-Los-Angeles-SCAQMD-Roll-Out-Heavy-Duty-Electric-Truck.aspx?interstitial=1

shorthaul yes, but the "truck" problem is getting worked on too

2/26/2009 11:53:22 PM

Quote :

"Yes, but they are mini-plants. Afterall, China is a new energy market. After a few decades things will settle down and the engineers figure out where everything is going to go, most of those 40% efficiency coal fired plants will be driven out of business by a few gigantic 65% efficiency coal-fired power plants, which are even more efficient still because they will be set up to recycle the waste heat to other uses."

it's china, they don't have to wait on anything; they're expanding, upgrading and consolidating concurrently:

http://www.cleantech.com/news/4126/china-close-31gw-coal-power-plants

[Edited on February 27, 2009 at 12:07 AM. Reason : and of course better efficiency doesn't make the coal any cleaner]

2/27/2009 12:04:20 AM

haha, the Southpark hybrid car episode is on right now.

2/27/2009 12:16:08 AM

hybrids are only a band-aid fix.

2/27/2009 12:18:26 AM

the increase in sites is a lovely sight to behold.

2/27/2009 3:35:06 AM

Quote :

"If I'd asked people what they wanted, they would have said 'a faster horse'"

loosely attributed to Henry Ford

these stations aren't the last place we'll all be filling our cars at; but they'll be a step to getting us there

2/27/2009 3:44:35 AM

Quote :

"do different hybrids not get different mileage? how are they going to charge you per mile if his car gets 5 miles per volt or whatever and hers gets 10?"

This guy obviously is not an engineer/physics major.

The unit you are looking for is amp/hours

Technically though your voltage is decreasing non-linerally as your battery drains. Thus to maintain the same power output to accomplish the same work (think Horsepower) as the battery depletes you are required to use more amps thus draining the battery faster.

2/27/2009 10:48:11 AM

1. i am not a guy

2. i graduated with a degree in ANIMAL SCIENCE

3. i said "volt or whatever" did you miss that part?

4. i was asking a question. people ask questions generally to LEARN something, not to get an answer for something they already know. why is that so difficult to understand? were you born knowing everything?

thanks for an explanation though.

[Edited on February 27, 2009 at 10:51 AM. Reason : sometimes you people are impossible]

2/27/2009 10:51:10 AM

Quote :

"^you are one stupid mother fucker. even if you were talking about older cars, your point was still a fail. obviously those older cars aren't being made any more. and this: Quote : "I would LOVE to "fill up" for $10 and not have the emissions as my current car." really? do you honestly believe your precious saab has a larger environmental footprint than a plug in or hybrid electric? know anything about nickel mines? power plant emissions? anything except being a moron? it's clear by your comments in here that you are no more informed than any of the other idiots out there blindly following the propaganda. you're only concerned with and focused on the possibility of saving yourself some money and the false feel good of "reducing" tailpipe emissions. in reality, you're prepared to purchase a product that has a very high potential to be on the order of many times worse than anything we've seen with petrol vehicles in terms of overall environmental impact."

LOL at no response from CalliPHISH

2/27/2009 11:04:38 AM

i can't WAIT to have a place to plug my block heater in whenever i'm parked downtown!

[Edited on February 27, 2009 at 11:16 AM. Reason : the power companies are SO much nicer than those meanie oil people! yay!]

2/27/2009 11:13:35 AM

Quote :

""If I'd asked people what they wanted, they would have said 'a faster horse'""

http://members.iif.hu/visontay/ponticulus/britannicus/scientists/einstein-dream.html

2/27/2009 11:36:18 AM

Quote :

"i can't WAIT to have a place to plug my block heater in whenever i'm parked downtown! "

same here.

2/27/2009 1:12:38 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "^you are one stupid mother fucker. even if you were talking about older cars, your point was still a fail. obviously those older cars aren't being made any more. and this: Quote : "I would LOVE to "fill up" for $10 and not have the emissions as my current car." really? do you honestly believe your precious saab has a larger environmental footprint than a plug in or hybrid electric? know anything about nickel mines? power plant emissions? anything except being a moron? it's clear by your comments in here that you are no more informed than any of the other idiots out there blindly following the propaganda. you're only concerned with and focused on the possibility of saving yourself some money and the false feel good of "reducing" tailpipe emissions. in reality, you're prepared to purchase a product that has a very high potential to be on the order of many times worse than anything we've seen with petrol vehicles in terms of overall environmental impact.""

Forgive me.. I have a job, wife and kid and tend to not get too concerned about such things. But, if you want a response.. here goes.

let me start with one of your first statements, and it was very intellectual:

"you are one stupid mother fucker. even if you were talking about older cars, your point was still a fail. obviously those older cars aren't being made any more."

REALLY??? OLD CARS ARENT FUCKING BEING MADE ANYMORE???? They do exist though, there are lots of them, hundreds of thousands I believe is what I stated, twice now. And they had shitty standards when they were made and over time they even got shittier. Never, ever did I mention new cars and increased standards - which still are not high enough.


Also

my Quote :
"I would LOVE to "fill up" for $10 and not have the emissions as my current car."
your response:
really? do you honestly believe your precious saab has a larger environmental footprint than a plug in or hybrid electric? know anything about nickel mines? power plant emissions? anything except being a moron?

Did I say my saab had a larger environmental footprint? NO.... you said that. I said I would love to be able to fill up for $10 vs. near $35. I also said I would not have as much EMISSIONS... big difference but I guess you just want to neglect what was actually said. I'm perfectly aware that an electric car has its shortfalls... but I never spoke on that, you did for me as you called me a fucking moron.

I could easily make shit up for you and call you a moron as well, but you have already shown that you are.

Should I wait a day and go "o snap... no response?"

2/27/2009 4:31:30 PM

I'm no garage guru or automotive expert, but cars are still pretty dirty, and use only a fraction of the amount of energy stored in gasoline. This argument based on cars being nice and clean and efficient now seems to be a little flimsy. Somebody throw up some data that we can analyze from a neutral source (ha!) and then lets talk about it without throwing insults. (Is this how the garage operates?)

2/28/2009 8:59:53 AM

coal plants are even dirtier, and even the newest design haven't reached 50% efficiency yet. After that, the losses on our grid are more than enough to make up for the inefficiency of internal combustion engines.

2/28/2009 3:24:56 PM

^50% efficiency is way higher than any car.

^^ check out how little your car pollutes next time you get the sniffer test (or do they still do that in NC? I'm out of the loop). I looked for some comparisons to old cars, but I didn't see any. I've seen the figures before--it's not even close...I want to say it's something like 90% or 98% reduction.

2/28/2009 4:19:21 PM

the grid will tack on at least another 10% in losses, which brings the number back in line with the 40% efficiency that newer engines are getting. Most coal plants worldwide average around 30-35% efficient, and the average in the US is probably around 40%. When you factor in grid losses from the plant to the plug, the internal combustion engines are more efficient.

[Edited on February 28, 2009 at 4:31 PM. Reason : averages]

2/28/2009 4:29:07 PM

^ you're just pulling those numbers out of your ass!

Quote :

"The efficiency of various heat engines proposed or used today ranges from 3 percent [1](97 percent waste heat) for the OTEC ocean power proposal through 25 percent for most automotive engines, to 45 percent for a supercritical coal plant, to about 60 percent for a steam-cooled combined cycle gas turbine. All of these processes gain their efficiency (or lack thereof) due to the temperature drop across them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine

2/28/2009 4:41:07 PM

my numbers are all correct and well docuemted. this is a forum, so I don't have to back up everything I say with references.

supercritical coal reactors are not as common as the older deisgn in the US, and even then the 45% efficiency does not exceed 50% efficiency, as I stated previously.

but just for shits and giggles, here are some numbers for you to read, just for shits and giggles. Since you like wiki so much:


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_energy_efficiency_of_an_average_coal_powered_plant

Quote :

"According to Hans-Dieter Schilling (Energie-Fakten), the average efficiency of all coal power stations in the world currently stand at around 31%"

you should be able to figure out from this that 45% efficiency is not the norm for coal plants.

http://www.murraymotors.com/media/2008_BMW_EfficientDynamics.pdf

Quote :

"Simply stated, compared to a gasoline engine, a diesel turns a higher percent of the fuel’s chemical energy into mechanical energy. Diesel engines average about a 42% thermal efficiency compared to about 35% for the gasoline engine."

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/2.pdf

The slides at that site show the efficiency of the motor in the Toyota Prius is around 37%.

seems like the few sites that talk about thermal efficiency of select motors instead of lumping them all into some universal statement seem to be much more in line with my previous statements. there are a lot of inefficient large motors that pull the average down, but those motors can't be replaced by electric options anyway.

2/28/2009 5:47:27 PM