17.8% of the victims that were white had black killers who were convicted of the death penalty.
5.9% of the victims that were black had white killers who were convicted of the death penalty.

Now what we need to know is what are the percentages of interracial murders.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Quote :

"From 1976 to 2005 -- 86% of white victims were killed by whites 94% of black victims were killed by blacks"

So working backwards, blacks killing whites makes roughly 14%. Whites killing blacks makes up roughly 6%. These numbers are a little fudgy since they don't include other races, but that's the rough estimate.

.178/.059 : .14/.6 = racism?

7/20/2009 4:41:52 PM

or the fact that the justice system doesn't give a shit when a black person is killed (relatively). but that is a mere side point to the rest of what i was saying.

7/20/2009 4:46:20 PM

disco_stu, from your own source:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-penalty-black-and-white-who-lives-who-dies-who-decides

It's a lot of words, but you can skip the rhetoric and read the picture descriptions.

Since numerous studies have been released revealing the racist application of the death penalty, DAs and whatnot have cleaned up their acts somewhat in terms of who they send up for the axe.

But I'd still prefer to be white in the courtroom, and I think most folks feel the same way.

7/20/2009 6:57:41 PM

I question whether the existence of other confounding variables - particularly, poverty and the lack of access to competent counsel - would not work to explain at least some of this disparity. I don't see anything indicating that this variable was controlled for in the analysis.

7/20/2009 7:12:21 PM

^Totally.

A kinda twisted hypothetical: would you rathe be white/poor or black/rich when your life is on the line?

I dunno. It would depend on where I am. And more cynically, just how dark I'd have to be.

I feel crude, but you can't really dress this shit up.

7/20/2009 10:24:18 PM

Quote :

"black/rich when your life is on the line?"

O.J. Simpson.

7/20/2009 11:00:49 PM

In California.

7/20/2009 11:17:01 PM

Simple

Just move ZIG for great justice.

7/21/2009 8:49:01 AM

Quote :

"Since numerous studies have been released revealing the racist application of the death penalty, DAs and whatnot have cleaned up their acts somewhat in terms of who they send up for the axe."

Citation needed. I prefer to look at the facts and draw my own conclusion. I'd love to see the data behind the numerous studies you're referring to since I've seen plenty of "studies" that have claimed that 70% of death row inmates are black. Which is totally horse shit. I'm not saying that the death penalty isn't racist; I simply refuse to accept that as the default and then be forced to prove otherwise.

The numbers show that black people murder more than white people yet there are more white people getting executed and more white people on death row. Overwhelmingly, black people murder white people more than white people murder black people.

I just wonder how one looks at these numbers are calls it racist. Also, calling anything I've said in this thread rhetoric is ridiculous. I'm stating facts.

Oh, and my post at the top of this page, the last number should be .06, not .6

[Edited on July 21, 2009 at 8:54 AM. Reason : decimals]

7/21/2009 8:51:58 AM

Quote :

"disco_stu: Also, calling anything I've said in this thread rhetoric is ridiculous. I'm stating facts."

I know. You seemed like a facty guy. That's why I suggested you skip the rhetoric and just look at the numbers in the article I posted. You clearly skipped the entire article, including the numbers. But I'll go find more for you to not read, alright?

Seriously, I'll be back with more studies for your curious, open-minded ass to dismiss.

7/21/2009 11:06:03 AM

Oh, I looked at the numbers.

"98% of DAs are white". So?

Death Sentence Rate for all cases eligible = .17 For blacks .18. So?

What numbers from that editorial convinced you? Because to me it was flimsy and full of pictures and very little substance.

[Edited on July 21, 2009 at 11:40 AM. Reason : damned numbers]

7/21/2009 11:20:54 AM

A lot of the evidence is manipulated by both sides.

"Your" side neglects the race of the victim, the severity of the case, the race of the DA and the jury, etc...when examining the evidence. "My" side manipulates data to make the problem seem more heinous and more sinister than it is (in the study I posted they report the difference between .13 and .18 as blacks being 38 percent more likely to get the death penalty when really it's pretty obvious they are five percent more likely).

But you're manipulating data as well. You can't compare the black rate (.18) to the overall rate (.17) because the overall rate has been raised since it includes blacks. You have to compare the black rate (.18) to the non-black rate (.13). And I suspect you know this. Five percent is a meaningful difference, especially since we're discussing the difference between life and death.

The motives of both sides for their manipulations is kind of important. One side manipulates because they want to stop killing people (possibly innocent people), and the other side manipulates because they want to keep killing people (innocent folks be damned).

The severity of the crime and those cases in the mid-range severity levels are the ones that concern me the most. The high and low ends water down the statistics. A white guy tortures and murders three children in his neighborhood...he's severe...of course, he's going to get the death penalty...a black guy would get the same treatment. But remove those extreme cases, those obvious ones where prejudice would not interfere because the crime is so heinous...and the death rate disparity becomes way more pronounced than the original 5 percent. That is to say, if you torture and murder children, we'll execute you no matter what color your skin is. But as the crime becomes less and less heinous and there is more room for us to sympathize, we tend to sympathize with the non-black guy more.

And we've been starting with eligible cases. We haven't even analyzed what makes a homicide eligible for the death penalty in the first place:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/aggravating-factors-capital-punishment-state

North Carolina's aggravating factors:

Quote :

"North Carolina- (1)The murder was especially heinous, atrocious, cruel or depraved (or involved torture) (2) The capital offense was committed during the commission of, attempt of, or escape from a specified felony (such as robbery, kidnapping, rape, sodomy, arson, oral copulation, train wrecking, carjacking, criminal gang activity, drug dealing, or aircraft piracy) (3)The murder was part of a course of conduct in which the defendant engaged (4) The defendant knowingly created a grave risk of death for one or more persons in addition to the victim of the offense (5) The murder was committed for pecuniary gain or pursuant to an agreement that the defendant would receive something of value (6) The murder was committed to avoid or prevent arrest, to effect an escape, or to conceal the commission of a crime (7) The capital offense was committed to interfere with the lawful exercise of any government function or the enforcement of the laws (8) The defendant has been convicted of, or committed, a prior murder, a felony involving violence, or other serious felony (9) The capital offense was committed by a person who is incarcerated, has escaped, is on probation, is in jail, or is under a sentence of imprisonment (10) The victim was a government employee, including peace officers, police officers, federal agents, firefighters, judges, jurors, defense attorneys, and prosecutors, in the course of his or her duties (11)The murder was committed against a witness against the defendant while engaged in the performance of his official duties"

The whole eligibility bit is just another step in the process where prejudice can slide in. So perhaps we should be starting with all homicides and examining the racial implications of whether or not they were chosen to go to the next level.

7/21/2009 4:17:59 PM

Bridget, seriously, stop the appeals to emotion. You're drawing conclusions about my philosophical views based on the fact that I'm not automatically accepting "your side"'s notion about the racist nature of capital punishment. Obviously I want to kill as many black fuckers as possible and I don't give a shit that innocent people may be killed as well. Yee-haw!

7/21/2009 4:26:08 PM

I didn't even realize I was appealing to emotions.

I pointed out how you manipulated the data to make it seems less convincing: .18 v. .17 instead of .18 v. .13. I also mentioned that the super severe crimes that everybody gets death for water down the data related to racial disparities in the application of our death penalty. As the crime become less severe, and folks have more leeway in terms of whether or not they apply the death penalty, they choose more often to apply it to blacks than whites...and at some levels, we're talking .25 v. .05 in the death rates.

No appeals to emotions.

[Edited on July 21, 2009 at 7:39 PM. Reason : Just facts, right?]

7/21/2009 7:37:31 PM

BridgetSPK -- since this has, for now, become a death penalty thread, I suppose I'll run with it.

Quote :

"But remove those extreme cases, those obvious ones where prejudice would not interfere because the crime is so heinous...and the death rate disparity becomes way more pronounced than the original 5 percent."

Whether or not the incidents of such bias are statistically significant, I do not know. I will look into it in the coming days, and I probably still won't know. But my gut reaction is to agree with you: I think that for crimes in a certain range, nonwhites get the death penalty more often than whites. And, even discounting the relatively higher crime rate among nonwhite groups, I think it's entirely possible that they are sentenced to death disproportionately more often than whites.

In short, I agree with the point of your last lengthy post.

And this puts me in a difficult spot in a number of ways. I will try to explain my counter argument in more detail as time goes on, but right now I want to move on to the "aggravating factors." The majority of these strike me as designed to rule out "crimes of passion," which in turn strikes me as fairly reasonable.

(1) lets us deal with the real sickos, people that went to great lengths to impose extended harm on their fellow man.

(2) and (5) say that the state wants to keep "minor" crimes from becoming murders.

(6), (7), (10), and (11) protect the government and, more specifically, prevents criminals from using violence to interfere with the justice system. This seems especially reasonable to me -- there needs to be an extra layer of penalty laid on people who try to kill witnesses or jurors.

(8) and (9) also strike me as pretty fair. If you've already committed a serious crime, get out, and commit murder, then you've already pretty much set yourself up as a lifelong criminal of the worst kind.

The ones that I will grant leave themselves open to too much interpretation are (3) and (4), which are not at all clear and which give a lot of leeway to prosecutors (especially with regards to 3).

Of course, any of these can be twisted to nefarious motives by an appropriately confident prosecutor -- but the same is the case with every law and every aspect of society. They are no more prone to prejudice "sliding in" than any other aspect. Remove the death penalty, and in all likelihood you've permanently removed a tool in justice's box, a tool which will remain gone whether or not the real problems are ever fixed. Remove those problems, on the other hand, and you have a more effective and still fully-equipped justice system.

7/22/2009 12:43:17 AM

Quote :

"manipulates because they want to keep killing people (innocent folks be damned)."

Not an appeal to emotion at all.

I submit that we don't have enough data to reasonably draw the conclusion that the death penalty is inherently racist.

Quote :

"The whole eligibility bit is just another step in the process where prejudice can slide in. So perhaps we should be starting with all homicides and examining the racial implications of whether or not they were chosen to go to the next level."

So prove to me that prejudice has slid in at this level. Is there a greater percentage of black people getting the death penalty for the same crimes as white people? Is this percentage statistically significant? Do we even have this data? The closest thing I see is the general homicide:sentencing ratio.

Explain to me why more black people are murderers than white people yet more white people have been sentenced to the death penalty. I mean c'mon! Is there just a shit-ton of really depraved white people compared to black people and they're skewing the numbers?

7/22/2009 9:04:42 AM

If you don't look like me, you can swing from a damn tree. AMIRITE?!?

7/22/2009 9:56:27 AM