Quote :

"That's why they continue to pump more and more money into education, only to see scores drop, college kids drop out, and test scores get worse and worse. If that's not broken, I don't know what is."

Schools are getting better and better. They're not to blame for failure rates.

9/1/2009 9:02:03 AM

When did we last "pump" money into education?

9/1/2009 9:03:33 AM

9/1/2009 9:31:36 AM

health care = service
health care != right

if you want a service, you pay for that service.

9/1/2009 9:45:23 AM

And to think I believed we lived in a modern society.

9/1/2009 9:46:36 AM

And I thought we lived in a society where people were proud to work and earn their wage, where people were responsible enough to live within their means, intelligent enough to realize that their salary may not be enough to provide all of the needs, services, and wants of the family. A society of people that were motivated to better themselves and improve their own standings through their own hard work.

Instead, we have a society who believes they deserve anything and everything, who have confused a right with a service, who will not accept responsibility for themselves or their actions. And we have the morons who enable these people, telling them that they can't do it, they'll never be good enough, they'll never have enough money. These morons have killed personal incentives and have replaced them with government handouts. Because we all know, a black man, an immigrant, a poor person can't do it himself, he needs a liberal to point that out and another to hand him a government check.

So instead of telling these people they're too poor, they're too dumb, they're too black or too mexican to get a better education, job, paycheck, health care, etc, why don't we encourage them to work harder, better themselves, and let him realize the incentives to this hard work. And when/where needed, we give them a helping hand instead of a "you can't do this, let me do it for you".

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 9:58 AM. Reason : wow. mornings ]

9/1/2009 9:56:44 AM

Quote :

"When did we last "pump" money into education?"

The bush admin spent record funds on education.

9/1/2009 9:56:51 AM

once healthcare gets to the point where even a large portion of middle-class americans can't afford decent care, we'll see where all these libertarian arguments go.

9/1/2009 10:00:04 AM

Quote :

"So instead of telling these people they're too poor, they're too dumb, they're too black or too mexican to get a better education, "

This makes me want to take you seriously.

9/1/2009 10:01:52 AM

great, another moron that doesn't understand figurative speech. gg idiot.

9/1/2009 10:06:06 AM

Quote :

"And I thought we lived in a society where people were proud to work and earn their wage, where people were responsible enough to live within their means, intelligent enough to realize that their salary may not be enough to provide all of the needs, services, and wants of the family. A society of people that were motivated to better themselves and improve their own standings through their own hard work. Instead, we have a society who believes they deserve anything and everything, who have confused a right with a service, who will not accept responsibility for themselves or their actions. And we have the morons who enable these people, telling them that they can't do it, they'll never be good enough, they'll never have enough money. These morons have killed personal incentives and have replaced them with government handouts. Because we all know, a black man, an immigrant, a poor person can't do it himself, he needs a liberal to point that out and another to hand him a government check. So instead of telling these people they're too poor, they're too dumb, they're too black or too mexican to get a better education, job, paycheck, health care, etc, why don't we encourage them to work harder, better themselves, and let him realize the incentives to this hard work. And when/where needed, we give them a helping hand instead of a "you can't do this, let me do it for you"."

I don't think you understand poverty.

9/1/2009 10:08:19 AM

I don't think you understand that these government programs go well beyond the poverty line and disenfranchise others. Furthermore, you must not understand personal responsibility and dealing with consequences of your own actions.

9/1/2009 10:10:51 AM

WTF figure of speech were you using there? Because seriously, I'd love to hear any interpretation of correlating black and Mexican with poor and dumb where you don't sound like a total racist.

9/1/2009 10:11:09 AM

i took it to mean that affirmative action (or whatever) implies to the minority that their race makes them inferior, thus further ensuring their failure. but maybe that was a generous interpretation.

9/1/2009 10:12:28 AM

^^because so many government programs are geared to further white people? because thats who the makers of these programs really had in mind?

^thank you

I'm not oblivious to the failures of our education system and that it has an effect on the overall well being of minorities, specifically. However, the answer is not government handouts and the "you can't do it" attitude. The answer is improving education.

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 10:15 AM. Reason : .]

9/1/2009 10:13:34 AM

Quote :

"I don't think you understand that these government programs go well beyond the poverty line and disenfranchise others. Furthermore, you must not understand personal responsibility and dealing with consequences of your own actions."

Despite what you may think, a Black child from a broken home growing up in the projects in Durham does not have the same equality of opportunity as a middle class White child growing up in Cary. Despite that he may work twice as hard as the child from Cary, he may still not achieve half of the successes.

And to him, you'd just say

Quote :

"why don't we encourage them to work harder, better themselves, and let him realize the incentives to this hard work"

and then you'd go back to your institutionalized benefits and your golf courses and just forget about him for awhile.

9/1/2009 10:15:48 AM

Quote :

"Ha, yeah right - but, of course, their leaders have convinced them they don't deserve insurance and it's their own fucking fault for making $5.50/hour at Walmart with no benefits. I mean, Walmart is good for everyone, right? It wouldn't be the first time poor people voted against their own self-interests"

LOL this was my faults exactly. I do not deny the boondoggle of the current health insurance bill but I find it so humourous
is that the cannon fodder making the most noise about this bill (at least publicly) are those working class individuals who pay
little federal taxes to begin with and will likely swallow hook, line, and sinker the benefits of the healthcare bill receiving
the most net benefit if ever passed.

Quote :

" Some people believe in right and wrong"

No they legitimatly beleive Obama is going to take all their monies, Chevy Camaro, and double wide trailer in order to provide a heart
transplate to an illegal mexican.

Quote :

"Monday and Tueday each week is work for Uncle Sam days. I don't start keeping what I earn until Wednesday. Get real. "

Monday and Tuesday! man it must be rought being in the 35% tax bracket making that $200,000+/year!

Quote :

"Are you seriously proposing that we let poor people starve? Did you really just argue that point?"

Quote :

"why is it my job to pay for their food? "

I do not care about this as much if they willfully choose not to work. What i care about is them breaking into my car or mugging me on the street.
this is why i tolerate to an extent the food programs, however, this does not mean I think they should get unlimited access to healthcare services for free.

Quote :

"Perhaps you don't realize that the dept of education directly correlates to low test scores and our worsening educational position. Local government can handle education much better than the fed"

I agree beyond offering research grant money, minor redistribution of monies to ensure proper funding across the board of public schools,
and giving some "general" direction of curriculum; I believe schools should be left to the state/county. NCLB and all the other gov't mandated.

Quote :

"If you're actually for balancing the budget, you might call for higher taxes...except all taxes are theft."

While no one wants to pay taxes at least Obama and democrats are responsible enough to balance the budget and raise the money for their agenda.
Bush on the other hand was a slash and spend president. Any business run in this manner that increases expenditures while decreasing revenue
would be crucified in the free market; eventually filing for bankruptcy.
standarized tests and shit are garbage.

9/1/2009 10:16:21 AM

i think one key is changing how school funds are allocated. schools in poorer areas get so much less money in many communities (eg in greensboro, dudley funds << grimsley/page funds). maybe don't allow donations to specific schools? do straight funding per student across entire school districts. and don't get me started on the stupidity of no child left behind.

9/1/2009 10:18:07 AM

Quote :

"Despite what you may think, a Black child from a broken home growing up in the projects in Durham does not have the same equality of opportunity as a middle class White child growing up in Cary. Despite that he may work twice as hard as the child from Cary, he may still not achieve half of the successes."

that doesn't mean that child can't be successful. you have the exact attitude that i'm talking about. "Since he was a black child from a broken family he can't survive on his own". That is horseshit. That child still has access to education and thus to means of an income which can provide for his needs/wants. I'm not saying it's as good as a Cary child's education, but the answer is still not a government hand out. It is improving education. see my post above.

9/1/2009 10:18:20 AM

but as a society would we rather have a kid with a 100 IQ from the suburbs in a high-power job over a kid with a 130 IQ from the ghetto? class mobility is a feature of our system that we should foster. i don't think that race-based affirmative action should necessarily be used in most circumstances. but i can definitely support class-based affirmative action to get into universities.

9/1/2009 10:22:18 AM

Quote :

"that doesn't mean that child can't be successful. you have the exact attitude that i'm talking about. "Since he was a black child from a broken family he can't survive on his own". That is horseshit. That child still has access to education and thus to means of an income which can provide for his needs/wants. I'm not saying it's as good as a Cary child's education, but the answer is still not a government hand out. It is improving education. see my post above."

When you live in a home where you have to decide whether to keep the power turned on or purchase groceries for that week, you will understand why "government handouts" such as welfare are necessary. When you realize that this has nothing to do with you being "lazy," that you're working day and night at the only minimum wage job you could afford in your area to try and provide for your family, you'll understand why you'll never be able to improve your standings no matter how hard you try.

9/1/2009 10:26:25 AM

Quote :

"that doesn't mean that child can't be successful. you have the exact attitude that i'm talking about. "Since he was a black child from a broken family he can't survive on his own". That is horseshit. That child still has access to education and thus to means of an income which can provide for his needs/wants. I'm not saying it's as good as a Cary child's education, but the answer is still not a government hand out. It is improving education. see my post above."

haha wow

come on bro, haven't you seen The Wire before

9/1/2009 10:47:03 AM

Quote :

"The answer is improving education."

I'm sure there's an easy, cheap and government-less solution to this. Care to share?

9/1/2009 10:50:59 AM

Quote :

"once healthcare gets to the point where even a large portion of middle-class americans can't afford decent care"

Seeing how thats the vast majority of people, who are all the doctors going to see...in your world? And if less people are coming, any chance the prices drop? Just a weird suggestion based on basic economics.

Quote :

"I'm sure there's an easy, cheap and government-less solution to this. Care to share? "

vouchers would help. imo

9/1/2009 11:31:46 AM

and since when have basic economics dictated the prices in our healthcare system?

9/1/2009 11:40:04 AM

I guess we did before govt got involved.

Honestly, do you see a situation where the entire health care industry is only treating 10% of the population? Its a silly arguement.

9/1/2009 11:42:58 AM

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 11:45 AM. Reason : sort of irrelevant.]

9/1/2009 11:45:30 AM

Quote :

"Honestly, do you see a situation where the entire health care industry is only treating 10% of the population? Its a silly arguement."

[image ]current_status_of_united_states.jpg [/ image]

9/1/2009 11:48:17 AM

Quote :

"vouchers would help"

Vouchers would probably improve things for students who are already succeeding, but it wouldn't do a thing about the bottom end.

9/1/2009 11:57:29 AM

I like paying taxes and would pay at a higher rate if I made far beyond my means.

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 12:00 PM. Reason : I like the idea of everyone having access to affordable health care options. ]

9/1/2009 11:59:56 AM

Quote :

"he was a black child from a broken family he can't survive on his own". That is horseshit. That child still has access to education and thus to means of an income which can provide for his needs/wants. I'm not saying it's as good as a Cary child's education, but the answer is still not a government hand out. "

Exactly. I see plenty of Poor Asian kids that manage to overcome the poverty barrier.

Quote :

"as a society would we rather have a kid with a 100 IQ from the suburbs in a high-power job over a kid with a 130 IQ from the ghetto? "

Most of the problems in the underpriveledged community are the results of circular cause and consequence. Many poor think they are
being "held" back by the system or put down as citizens thus they take no measures to encourage their kids or push them to do better; getting
ahead in life. Thus a feedback loop in initiated where by thinking one has no chance to excel neither them nor their kids act to correct
their life state.

Quote :

"i don't think that race-based affirmative action should necessarily be used in most circumstances. but i can definitely support class-based affirmative action to get into universities. "

I do not think "Class" should give one kid a spot in enrollment but I can support giving these underpriviledged students financial aid in the form
of grants and scholarships.

Quote :

"that you're working day and night at the only minimum wage job "

I do not know many people that work for minimum wage even for "College jobs"

Quote :

"you could afford in your area to try and provide for your family"

having a family is NOT a right. If you can not afford to have 4 kids then perhaps you should restrain to having 2; instead of begging
to Uncle Sam and making everyone else subsidize your brood of children.

9/1/2009 12:02:46 PM

when did this turn into an argument about reproductive rights

BREATHING FREE AIR IS NOT A RIGHT

SHOW ME IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS WHERE IT SAYS YOU CAN OWN A CAR

9/1/2009 12:04:01 PM

Quote :

"I do not know many people that work for minimum wage even for "College jobs""

I would imagine you would not know many poor people.

Quote :

"Exactly. I see plenty of Poor Asian kids that manage to overcome the poverty barrier."

I don't believe that this is the same situation as being Black in America.

Quote :

"having a family is NOT a right. If you can not afford to have 4 kids then perhaps you should restrain to having 2; instead of begging to Uncle Sam and making everyone else subsidize your brood of children."

When should the Eugenics program begin, Der Fuhrer?

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 12:08 PM. Reason : GODWIN]

9/1/2009 12:08:14 PM

Quote :

"Vouchers would probably improve things for students who are already succeeding, but it wouldn't do a thing about the bottom end. "

I disagree, though I realize you have far more knowledge with this than I. I think it would allow those students who might be below means yet motivated to be allowed to get into better schools through hard work. Currently if you want to go to a better school you have to move into that district. Allowing these kids to apply to schools and get accepted gives them more opportunity than they currently have. Plus, I think we need to realize there is no solution for 100% of people, you will still have kids/parents that dont care about education and you can't force it. I think you have to do what is the best for the most, instead of lowering everythign down to the lowest common denominator.

9/1/2009 12:11:04 PM

Quote :

"I do not know many people that work for minimum wage even for "College jobs""

This just in! Poor people do not exist!

9/1/2009 12:12:05 PM

Quote :

"below means yet motivated"

Bolded the problem.

When we're talking about the kids who our system is "failing," we're not about kids/families who care.

9/1/2009 12:26:15 PM

Quote :

"When did we last "pump" money into education?"

It is my understanding that the Bush admin's No Child Left Behind was massive as far as federal gov involvement in education goes, even if it hasn't developed a reputation as being immensely successful.

9/1/2009 12:45:41 PM

if that is the case boone, I see no way you can legislate that. Change like that has to come out of thier house. imo

9/1/2009 1:35:02 PM

Since this thread seems to be the latest frontier on the health care discussion, I though I'd share this here about a pro-health care reform rally happening in Raleigh on Thursday.

http://bluenc.com/ofa-health-care-reform-bus-tour

Quote :

"OFA's Healthcare Reform Bus Tour is coming to Raleigh this Thursday, September 3rd. Let's take this opportunity to show how support and force for health care insurance reform. This is something you can do and we need you at this critical time in health care reform! FINAL STOP RALEIGH!!! Thousands of North Carolina Residents publicly support Health Insurance Reform! Join Members of Congress and deliver the voice of those committed to improving Health Care for ALL Americans!!! 5:30PM - THURSDAY, SEPT. 3RD, 2009 WakeMed North Healthplex 10000 Falls of Neuse Road Raleigh, NC 27614 GATES OPEN AT 5:00PM RSVP and Details: http://www.barackobama.com What else can you do? -Share this email! -Print this flier and post appropriately! -Come and bring your family and friends! -Create a posterboard sign to bring and display!"

9/1/2009 3:17:16 PM

I thought you couldnt use a bus anymore.

9/1/2009 3:19:05 PM

Quote :

" When should the Eugenics program begin, Der Fuhrer? "

Holding people responsible for supporting their children is not eugenics dipshit.

If you want to have 20 kids so be it. Just do not come with your hands out begging for handouts from Uncle Sam.
When you require the tax payer to subsidize your litter than it becomes the governments interest...

9/1/2009 3:27:08 PM

that'll show those irresponsible children!

9/1/2009 3:31:57 PM

We should just sterilize all of the welfare-accepting Bla......

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 3:36 PM. Reason : ]

9/1/2009 3:36:04 PM

Quote :

"If your baby is underweight or born early, the chances of survival are better here than elsewhere. But the U.S. has much higher incidence of underweight and early babies than other countries, so the infant mortality rate appears higher in a misleading way. Both New York and Tennessee tried expanding Medicaid coverage and greatly improved pre-natal care for poor folks. Infant mortality was unaffected. Why? Because pre-natal care doesn't fix obesity, smoking, poor diet, lack of exercise, etc."

So what is your plan to make people live healthier then?

If people are going to choose to be slobs, do we just let the country rot while the Chinese take over everything?

9/1/2009 4:26:48 PM

Quote :

"So what is your plan to make people live healthier then?"

make them responsible for their unhealthy choices/behavior

9/1/2009 4:57:42 PM

*if they're poor

9/1/2009 5:14:30 PM

Quote :

"*if they're poor"

if you're an idiot

no where did I even mention an income. If people choose to be slobs, let them be slobs. Just dont expect others to pay for thier continued destructive behavior. Thats all

9/1/2009 5:39:38 PM

Quote :

"make them responsible for their unhealthy choices/behavior"

I like personal responsibility, but it's not limitless.

One problem is the issue of people who are under 18. In every other context, we say that minors can't be held to those standards of personal responsibility. I don't favor a system that punishes them for the failings of their parents. I also don't favor a system where we spend 18 years ignoring someone's possibility, in fact telling them that they don't legally have it yet, and then on their birthday suddenly hold them responsible in a life and death way for all the decisions they made up to that point.

Obviously I'm not saying that we should pamper kids who fucked up in high school. I'm saying we shouldn't let them die of easily curable diseases.

Another problem is lag time. A person is irresponsible and they pay for it. I can deal with that. But let's say they change their ways. They start working like the devil, trying to improve themselves and their contribution to society. And it might still be years and years before they can afford health care. You mean to say you worked two jobs and studied your ass off to go back to school and do well? Wow, that seems like a waste given that you dropped dead from easily detectable and treatable prostate cancer right after graduation. Health problems also have the ability to significantly impede people who are trying to be responsible. It doesn't matter how hard you work now if a chronic problem that developed during your less responsible days is significantly reducing your ability to work.

I don't favor a system that punishes the irresponsible for years after they've become responsible. It's a perverse incentive. "Work hard and fuck you anyway." These first two problems add up to one thing: make mistakes early in life, and you have to pay for them forever. Why quit making mistakes?

My third problem is that this "personal responsibility" talk is virtually always directed at the poor and only rarely and in passing at the rich. Some people worked hard and earned money, sure. Some people had grandfathers that worked hard and earned money. I don't favor a system that demands the highest degree of responsibility from the people in the worst circumstances and demands virtually none from those in the best.

---

Oh, and another thing looking back to the question of how private companies will be able to compete. You can't have it both ways. Either government involvement in healthcare will be horribly inefficient and worse than private care or it won't. And I don't see people turning in droves to a horribly inefficient system that's worse than what they have.

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 6:39 PM. Reason : ]

9/1/2009 6:34:31 PM

Quote :

"A person is irresponsible and they pay for it. I can deal with that. But let's say they change their ways. They start working like the devil, trying to improve themselves and their contribution to society. And it might still be years and years before they can afford health care."

I agree with most of your post grumpy. But here is where we differ. People assume they cant afford health ins. and most who say that have never even shopped for it. People who have a condition will simply pay more. They can get a higher deductible for a time that covers them from the major problems or accidents while they pay out of pocket for thier routine care. Once healthier they can opt to buy more coverage at a now lower rate. Thus paying the consequences for thier bad behavior....not you and I.

Quote :

"Oh, and another thing looking back to the question of how private companies will be able to compete. You can't have it both ways. Either government involvement in healthcare will be horribly inefficient and worse than private care or it won't. And I don't see people turning in droves to a horribly inefficient system that's worse than what they have. "

And Ill give you my opinion on this. The govt is not like a private business. The cost to capital is basically non existant. ANd if the govt program is running poorly it can simply remain open by shifting funds from other taxes or raising taxes. Private business has to earn your money, you have a choice of who to send it to. If the product sucks, you look for something else. With govt there will be no choice eventually. It will be able to run in the red without consequences traping more generation who depend on a program is not sustainable. Just look at SS and Medicare currently. Amtrak would be another great example, it has never turned a profit after govt took it over. I think most would agree we need to some govt plan to truely help for those who really need it. But currently our insurance for the poor covers braces and color contact lenses, a far cry from basic health care. imo

9/2/2009 9:51:50 AM

Quote :

"People who have a condition will simply pay more....Thus paying the consequences for thier bad behavior....not you and I."

Does not compute. How does this work with something like childhood cancer?

Quote :

"And Ill give you my opinion on this. The govt is not like a private business. The cost to capital is basically non existant. ANd if the govt program is running poorly it can simply remain open by shifting funds from other taxes or raising taxes. Private business has to earn your money, you have a choice of who to send it to. If the product sucks, you look for something else. With govt there will be no choice eventually. It will be able to run in the red without consequences traping more generation who depend on a program is not sustainable. Just look at SS and Medicare currently. Amtrak would be another great example, it has never turned a profit after govt took it over. I think most would agree we need to some govt plan to truely help for those who really need it. But currently our insurance for the poor covers braces and color contact lenses, a far cry from basic health care. imo"

You have a health insurance provider through your work, I am assuming. Does it suck? If it did, what could you do? I suppose you could switch to a "buy your own" provider like Blue Cross/Blue Shield. But what if they suck? What do you do? It seems like you don't really have any more of a choice now than you are saying you would under a government plan. Personally? I'd rather have 3 cents taken out of every dollar I put into my healthcare rather than the ten to twenty cents taken out by private insurance companies to provide the same type of coverage.

9/2/2009 10:02:03 AM