Wow. Watched the video.

When I first saw the vehicle the police were in, the first thing I thought wasn't "oh, looks like the police", I thought "looks like a F-ing joyriding vehicle".

Why should we even bother with the police claims that they shouted 'police!' before open firing on the guy? They've already lied before.

Quote :

"Carpenter also told AccessNorthGa.com that the family was first informed Ayers died in a traffic accident, and then that he had been shot. Hours later, they learned he died in an officer-involved shooting."

The only thing that I'd really believe is the video, and it's clear enough from that that the officers F-ed up big time.

9/3/2009 3:33:49 PM

Quote :

"The only thing that I'd really believe is the video, and it's clear enough from that that the officers F-ed up big time."

Just curious, how so? They attempted to stop a suspect in an investigation and he bolted, running down one of them in the process. Is the issue at hand here that the car wasn't marked? You're convinced that Ayers would not have tried to run if it was a marked car? Is that what this thread is all about?

Quote :

""Carpenter also told AccessNorthGa.com that the family was first informed Ayers died in a traffic accident, and then that he had been shot. Hours later, they learned he died in an officer-involved shooting.""

This is like 8th-hand info. Who told the family about it? Did the paramedics or some witness to the scene where he crashed his car into a tree call the family without knowing it was a shooting? Was it additional police that weren't aware that it was caused by an undercover unit yet? I'd be hesitant to suggest that the same cops were calling the family and then changing their story every few hours without more details.

9/3/2009 3:47:22 PM

well thats fucked up.

9/3/2009 3:55:16 PM

Plain-clothes officers involved in this kind of activity are a danger to everyone, period. You have every right to identify an officer and unfortunately they feel that they are above you, in all regards. They certainly regard their lives as more important than ours (Non-cops) and most would want to use their training as well I'm sure, so when an opportunity to shoot a suspect presents itself I can imagine they'd love to take it. It's exciting to have ultimate power over another human like that, to be allowed to kill them if you deem it fit, and that's exactly what they did. They've showed us yet again that the police can fuck up and even if it results in the death of innocents, it's going to be considered justified because we took a crack whore off the streets for a while. That crack whore contributed far more negative material to this world than the man that the cops killed (Positive contributions aren't the focus here guys, punishing the "victimless criminals" is), so his death was just an unfortunate result of this patriotic war on drugs.

Violent, armed drug raids on clearly non-violent people are a joke. The point is to risk everyone's life so you can catch them with some kind of material that you simply find offensive and then you lock them in a box and take their money for it even if they've victimized absolutely no one. It's rather disgusting to me.

I mean, certainly put away violent drug-users just like you'd put away violent people who don't use drugs. Hell, I can imagine these cops going home and using their drug of choice, alcohol, at the end of a hard days work busting those "druggies".

9/3/2009 6:21:13 PM

If a Black Escalade had rolled up to me in a "sketchy" part of town, I would have done the same fucking thing, if two dudes ( I'm guessing they were black) jumped out in plain clothes with guns. My first thought would have been "OH FUCK I'm ABOUT TO GET CAPPED OR HAVE MY CAR JACKED!" Maybe after i fucking floored it (maybe running one of the pigs over) would my adrenaline have gone down and possibly have thought "did one shout police?"

But ZOMG AT LEAST THEY GOT THE DRUG USER/DEALER

Here are my problems......

1.) What the fuck is a police department doing wasting tax payer money on a ESCALADE. I am sure any "Big SUV" would accomplish the same purpose?

2.) What made them think that conducting a sting and even firing fucking guns at a gas station is a good idea??

3.) Unless they lack common sense or have a death wish, why would you approach a "potential suspect" by walking in front of their car???

4.) Would a normal police operation with backup have been more effective? Its not like they were undercover needing to go buy drugs from fucking Al Capone.

In my opinion "undercover" cops should be working at their own risk. You would think presenting yourself as a police officer would be safer. Even during a potential "sting" of a drug house, merely swarming in with plains, some of the dealers may shoot just thinking a rival gang is busting in.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 7:40 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 7:52 PM. Reason : l]

9/3/2009 7:37:11 PM

Quote :

"What made them think that conducted a sting and even firing fucking guns at a gas station is a good idea??"

Hahaha, I never thought of that. What a bunch of idiots.

9/3/2009 7:43:48 PM

we're living in a police state.

9/3/2009 7:59:29 PM

^^^

most unorthodox undercover cars are involuntarily donated

gasoline does not explode ? are the police using incendiary rounds?

i believe most people (or at least police) would prefer to approach a vehicle from the front as you can see most of the person in the car, as opposed to the rear where you cannot see anything

9/3/2009 8:02:40 PM

Quote :

"Man, we really don't have enough info. on this sitch. It is entirely possible he was giving the woman a ride and dropped her off. When the Escalade pulled up, he thought they were dangerous criminals and tried to defend himself. He might have been dropping her off after insufflating cocaine and receiving oral sex from her. The Escalade pulled up, he didn't wanna get busted by the cops, and tried to "defend" himself. Either way, he was not the target of the sting operation, and now he's dead. Surely, his death, among the many other deaths, merits a reevaluation of the way we choose to enforce the law. The War on Drugs hurts the police and the public. There has to be a smarter way to handle the drug problem. I mean, it creates revenues for police departments, courts, prisons, etc...but that reason alone isn't enough to justify this madness. There's another way to approach and address the issue of drugs that will be even more beneficial to everybody."

Someone check the weather reports in hell because I agree 100% with Bridget on this one.

I also have to agree with other people, undercover cops take the risk of being assumed to be bad guys, no matter how many times they yell "police!". This means that they run the risk of being attacked by someone who reasonably believes they are defending themselves, and it also to my mind means that they should have systems in place to deal with unexpected encounters that reduce the potential for mistaken killings. I've had a run in with some plain clothes cops back when they arrested one of my neighbors, and even after one of them flashed a badge, I still didn't feel 100% comfortable until I had been directed to a marked car parked a bit away. Undercovers go through a lot of effort to make themselves look like normal people, and so it should not be a surprise when people don't expect them to be, nor believe that they are cops.

This entire situation could have been avoided with a little planning. Any undercover sting should be backed up by uniformed cops. Then the situation at hand could have played out like this:

Undercovers continue to target the girl involved in the sting, and one of them radio's a uniform in a marked car a little bit back to pull over the pastor a bit down the road. They would have been able to stop the pastor (or at least confirm that he was running from real cops) and still have gotten the girl, all with 95% less death.

9/3/2009 8:29:49 PM

Quote :

"Undercovers continue to target the girl involved in the sting, and one of them radio's a uniform in a marked car a little bit back to pull over the pastor a bit down the road. They would have been able to stop the pastor (or at least confirm that he was running from real cops) and still have gotten the girl, all with 95% less death."

You're absolutely right. All because some jackass yells police, doesn't mean people suddenly drop their defenses and believe this. There are many documented cases of criminals impersonating police in order to rob, rape, and kill. If the police want to stop someone, do it with a uniformed officer. I'll be damned if I'll immediately submit to any jackass that yells police, badge or not. I can buy a badge online for $10.

9/3/2009 8:44:17 PM

Quote :

"What the fuck is a police department doing wasting tax payer money on a ESCALADE. I am sure any "Big SUV" would accomplish the same purpose?"

Thats just like the seized Z06 vette that the Wake County Sheriffs Department recently "acquired". Yes, an Escalade is a sweet ride, but if one pulls up and guys with guns jump out it screams SKETCHY SHIT a lot louder than even a suburban.

Quote :

"Unless they lack common sense or have a death wish, why would you approach a "potential suspect" by walking in front of their car???"

Because then anything noncompliant that the suspect does can be used to justify deadly force. An uncooperative perp in a car is pretty much a freebie if you're standing in the right place.

Of course the cops will justify that kind of stupidity by saying that they wanted to prevent him from leaving the scene, which could result in a high speed chase, which puts innocent people in danger.

9/3/2009 8:59:26 PM

Quote :

"There are many documented cases of criminals impersonating police in order to rob, rape, and kill. If the police want to stop someone, do it with a uniformed officer. I'll be damned if I'll immediately submit to any jackass that yells police, badge or not. I can buy a badge online for $10."

most of these cases probably being people driving on the interstate dressed in police uniform with crown vics and flashy blue lights... but np, next time you are getting stopped use the tried and true hit and run method for telling if its a real cop

9/3/2009 9:20:49 PM

^ There's a significant difference between being pulled over by a marked car (and thus voluntarily submitting to an interaction) and walking out of a convenience store and having plain clothes officers jump out of an escalade at you.

But you can be damned sure that if I'm driving down the road and some sketchy unmarked car pulls behind me with lights flashing, if I have any doubts that it is a real cop, I'll keep driving, preferably to a well lit and populated area and be calling 911 and asking to verify that there really is a cop pulling me over. Of course, I'll have that option available to me, unlike our late pastor here.

9/3/2009 9:45:43 PM

^ I concur and I'm not one to imply that police officers are the masters of all situations, but this didn't happen in the backwoods of WVA at 12am... but as far as who's fault it is I'm sure TWW will sort out every other hypothetical situation that will hypothetically come out with a better/worse solution depending on who it is. Regardless, I salute him for having the balls to bring his car to a gun fight 3v1.

9/3/2009 10:08:15 PM

Quote :

"I'm calling it here and now, "The three officers were cleared of any wrongdoing.""

Law enforcement killed someone who wasn't even a suspect, clearly something went wrong. Even if a non-suspect reacts inappropriately to an undercover cop, the end result shouldn't almost never be death, and I don't see how (based on what I've read to this point) that the responsibility for the results wouldn't be at least shared by the cops.

9/4/2009 1:06:05 AM

Going out to God

Ayers was apparently unaware that the officers had no warrant and he could have simply driven slowly away or even walked away without answering questions.

9/4/2009 8:57:00 AM

Quote :

"Law enforcement killed someone who wasn't even a suspect, clearly something went wrong. Even if a non-suspect reacts inappropriately to an undercover cop, the end result shouldn't almost never be death, and I don't see how (based on what I've read to this point) that the responsibility for the results wouldn't be at least shared by the cops."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/04/georgia.pastor.shot/

Quote :

"The officers saw the woman in a car with Ayers and saw what they believed was a drug transaction, Bankhead said. They followed the car as Ayers dropped the woman off at a gas station. The undercover officers wanted to question Ayers about what they had just seen, he said. "They approached the vehicle. They were in plain clothes. They identified themselves as police officers, which civilian witnesses say happened. They also had badges around their necks." ... ... Police later determined what they had seen was not a drug transaction, but "other circumstances were involved, and that's part of the investigation," Bankhead said. "

I'm not sure what he was doing at a hotel with a prostitute drug dealer. One can only speculate. Maybe he was giving the poor girl a lift to her home, the gas station.

Snarkiness aside, I want to say that I agree with the folks in this thread. Not only would these types of situations be totally avoided if there was no War on Drugs, but prostitution being illegal as well is fucking retarded and makes it obviously dangerous.

^Well, it's all speculation at this point. I think the OP is suggesting that he thought he was getting jacked or attacked in broad daylight at a gas station and was trying to get away. I tend to think he was doing something naughty and didn't to get busted, destroying his life as a minister and a father-to-be. But maybe I'm a cynic.

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 9:16 AM. Reason : .]

9/4/2009 9:14:26 AM

Quote :

"Snarkiness aside, I want to say that I agree with the folks in this thread. Not only would these types of situations be totally avoided if there was no War on Drugs, but prostitution being illegal as well is fucking retarded and makes it obviously dangerous. "

Be cynic all you want but I strongly feel had 3 uniformed officers in a squad car rolled up we would have had 0 dead pastors, 1 arrested crack whore, and 0 threads about this in TWW.

You have to think in the context of the pastor. A white dude in a sketch neighborhood when a "gangsta/drug-dealer" looking car rolls up with strapped G's popping out. The cops are lucky it was only a pastor in the car or they may have gotten capped by a spooked drug dealer who though he was getting robbed.

9/4/2009 12:20:47 PM

Since you're counting, the situation wasn't a *total* loss, 1 crack whore did get arrested.

Also, keep in mind that the cops had been surveilling the car, it's not like it was a random car they pulled over. They knew who was in it and had an idea that he had being doing stuff or would have information needed to bust the chick. They're not lucky that they capped this guy.

9/4/2009 12:44:37 PM

Perhaps it's best for plain clothes and undercover cops to learn their place. Carrying no firearm and acting as a civilian is all that should be permitted as action from such officers. There's no place for cops to look civilian and require compliance as if they were uniformed and in a patrol car. The entire strategic purpose of undercover investigations is to be seen often, embed yourself, and report information to coordinate stings. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported in the first article that the family was not notified of this being an officer involved shooting initially, this was a comment by the brother-in-law. I would assume its validity pretty solid and not eighth-hand information. There was also a comment about how the paramedics did not know it was an officer-involved shooting, although the pastor hit a telephone pole a block away and the police officers themselves would have been first responders. Had they not gone to provide medical assistance for reasons of catching the crack whore or not wanting to further expose themselves would seem rather negligent. If there still was confusion as to who Ayers was, they should have been able to use the plates to identify the vehicle, right? That's what undercover cops are supposed to actually do, get information.

I'm also convinced that he was spooked by the rapid deployment of the officers from a civilian vehicle which didn't even have strobes. Reason would have quickly vanished and the pastor was likely in "flight" mode by then. The officers rushed the vehicle. A civilian in danger is required to run first. Keep in mind that Ayers had just used the ATM as well before being rushed by people who were banging on the sides of his car. The police were being overzealous for being undercover, compliance was not going to happen, but they used lethal force in a situation where only a gangster or thug would have.

A few more tidbits:

Ayers on Mission to Zambia:


Ayers' Blog
Shoal Creek BC, Lavonia, Ga.

I don't think it would be too far of a stretch to assume he was trying to convert a whore. I've seen half-way houses and you don't find shining examples of citizens in them, but some do change through the church.

9/5/2009 3:37:52 AM

^ I think you take this a bit too far. Undercover cops should absolutely be allowed to be armed. Civilians are (at least in most states) and just because you're an undercover cop doesn't mean your right to self defense suddenly disappears. Yes, plain clothes should recognize that they will not be immediately recognized as a legitimate authority, and therefore more planning needs to go into their actions, but that doesn't mean they can't do anything other than watch.

As for the reporting to the family, I'm inclined to believe the earlier suggestion that they first heard about the accident, not from the police involved but from EMTs or police responding to the scene of the accident, which until the body was removed and examined would have appeared to such responding personnel as just another accident. Next it was discovered that the cause of the accident was the person being shot, and then finally after the plain clothes had a chance to coordinate with the EMTs responding to the accident, it was established that this guy was the one they shot at.

Further, I imagine the plain clothes officers had no idea they actually hit him, or that he crashed a block away, and I imagine they just called in for a patrol to be on the lookout while they dealt with their primary concern at the gas station. The fact that the family got 3 different stories of increasing detail isn't due to some nefarious plot to keep them in the dark, it's due to the fact that information is not ascertained all at once, and despite our digital age of "NOW!" sometimes it still takes time to piece things together.

This absolutely could have and should have been handled differently, but without any proof to the contrary, I don't see this as an act of malice, just incompetence.

9/5/2009 8:27:34 AM

Civilian A pulls a gun on another civilian B who is also armed, in a car, or has an escape route. Civilian B will either kill, run over, or run away from A. Saying "STOP! POLICE!" in no certain terms can be used by undercover police. There's no way to fully ascertain their authority while they're undercover that's safe without providing a fight or flight.

Find me a cop who will not shoot when a gun is drawn on them and you'll have a cop who can work undercover. I think very few cops on the beat can work undercover properly in full authority. For example, look at FBI infiltration of the Hell's Angels.

9/5/2009 9:08:56 AM

what was the point of having undercover officers in this situation? Its not like they were hanging out with him and receiving information "undercover".

9/5/2009 11:00:14 AM

This poor Pastor is another bit of collateral damage in the insane War on Drugs.

9/5/2009 11:00:16 AM

Quote :

"the pastor hit a telephone pole a block away and the police officers themselves would have been first responders"

I see where are priorities are. Screw providing life-saving medical help to honest tax paying citizens who in this case is a preacher when
there is a CRACK WHORE TO CATCH!!!

Quote :

"I'm also convinced that he was spooked by the rapid deployment of the officers from a civilian vehicle which didn't even have strobes."

Two "ethnic" men rolling out in plain clothes from a gangster looking Escalade with guns while I am making a stop at the Stab-n-Grab mart
in a ghetto neighborhood. I would have been more than just "spooked" I would have been in fear for my life.

Quote :

"mean your right to self defense suddenly disappears."

In this case though self-defense mans stepping out of a way of the fucking vehicle and calling for back-up if you really think
the dude is a suspect.

Quote :

"Civilian A pulls a gun on another civilian B who is also armed, in a car, or has an escape route. Civilian B will either kill, run over, or run away from A."

yeah imho the cops were lucky it was "just" a preacher and not some druggie who after being spooked by some dudes with guns did not
grab his .357 magnum and blow one of the cops away before being shot to death.

9/5/2009 12:41:36 PM

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/5964860/

Quote :

"Rocky Mount, N.C. — Rocky Mount police are seeking about a half-dozen men who disguised themselves as police officers and fatally shot a 17-year-old boy during a robbery Tuesday night. Police said that four to six masked men posing as police got out of an SUV near a group of men playing cards around 11 p.m. outside a 2104 Travis Run. The gunmen pulled out handguns, shotguns and rifles and ordered the card players to lie down, police said. They began robbing the card players, as well as people inside the trailer. Jermaine Larquez Lynch, who lives nearby, saw the robbery going on and tried to run away, police said. One of the gunmen shot him in the back. Lynch was struck in the shoulder and chest, police said. He was pronounced dead at Nash General Hospital. A K9 search turned up some of the stolen items in a ditch near 2105 Brandon Lane, but no suspects. Police officers canvassed the neighborhood and set up a checkpoint to see if anyone had witnessed the incident. The one gunman who wasn't wearing a mask was described as a black man between 45 and 50 years old, with a thin build and a gray, thin beard, police said. Anyone with information about the crime should call Detective Michael Lewis at 252-972-1457 or Crime Stoppers at 252-977-1111. Crime Stoppers pays cash rewards for information leading to arrests in certain felony cases, and callers never have to identify themselves."

9/9/2009 5:51:15 PM