Well, regardless of the outcome on Monday, I'd encourage you start actively applying for jobs elsewhere. If this isn't a clear indication that you need to find another work environment, I don't know what is.

9/11/2009 3:31:55 PM

Quote :

"If he paid for your lunch and went this far to keep you in consideration, then I think you definitely still have a chance. "

This feels more like trying to get a read on how a date went & to see if you've still got a chance rather than whether a semi-firing is going to stick or not with the having to write letters, going out to eat, & reading the signs from the lunch interaction.

Quote :

"My big problem is that there's a very loose structuring and not much communication (which I didn't think it was my job to initiate, but I can see now that it is)"

Doesn't sound like the best boss in the world if they went two & a half years before telling you what they expect in terms of communication & feedback, and then semi-fired you for not knowing something they didn't tell you - pending how they feel about it after rereading you letter several times over the weekend.

Unprofessional treatment like that would probably prompt me to start looking for a employer unless I just really enjoyed that job, or if there were simply no other jobs available at the time.

9/11/2009 3:34:16 PM

All three of your bosses need to be kicked in the crotch. Even if you're a shitty employee, that's no way to treat people.

9/11/2009 3:42:27 PM

Quote :

"there's clearly been two of them that I've been told to think of as equals, the original partners of the business, the guy who fired me and is my real "boss" and then the female supervisor who bosses me as well."

FTR I wasn't implying that it was your fault that you didn't know who your boss was. To me there is a huge problem with having 2 bosses. I could imagine the scenario where you are less autonomous and your supervisor thinks you are cool but your real boss still fires you because he feels like after 2.5 years you should be able to do your job without pulling your supervisor/his partner away from more important duties. Being somewhere in the middle could have possibly saved your job, but probably by keeping both bosses satisfied just enough not to fire you. Basically in my mind, you were doomed from the beginning and unless something changes, you will probably be in this same situation eventually.

I feel like if I were in this situation I would take the job back if offered but only stick around long enough to find another job. When I leave I would thank both of them for showing me the futility of human endeavor.

9/11/2009 4:53:34 PM

Quote :

"I'd say you are probably screwed if she is the type of backbiting bitch I have encountered before in a typical workplace, but good luck. You did what you could."

Yup.

I'm not sure why the woman has all the pull here.

Quote :

"I replied an e-mail basically saying... I know you've had it out for me for months That's what she saw. If she has a chip on her shoulder about you, then it's never going to get better. If you are re-hired, she will always be gunning for you. Are you able to be perfect with everything? You will have to be with her around."

She wanted to get rid of you and she was just biding her time.

Quote :

"and you are holding things over my head that happened months ago and have long been resolved, and asked her for a clean slate so that we could improve our relationship and move forward."

You are talking to a woman. Never forgive, never forget. Even regarding things that may or may not have happened.

Quote :

"in her reply email she did not mention anything about my olive branch and just said only "thank you for the update that's what we expect from you." I thought that our relationship had mildly improved since then, but obviously I was wrong."

Really she was just gathering evidence for her case against you. No more, no less. The bit about not hearing from her was another tactic. If you had suddenly improved in all aspects during this period, she was have been steaming mad, as she would have had no ammunition against you.

It really sucks that it happened this way and I'm not really sure how you won't be affected by what has happened. Just getting back into the office won't fix everything. If you can get back on track and somehow turn into superman, I'd say good for ya. If you can't, the pressure of your female boss trying to get you fired could be an issue.

I'd still cover your butt by looking for another job.

Also, if you really have some friend equity with the founder's partner, I'd say use it and get the skinny on the situation. Tell you side of the story. He might have been led astray. I would only use that if you are SURE that you have more than a worker/boss relationship. Politics can play a LARGE part. If you can play the game, I would suggest it.

[Edited on September 11, 2009 at 5:00 PM. Reason : d]

9/11/2009 4:55:08 PM

After reading all this bs, and having to deal with the politics of people in this company, I would say it might be best for you to quit and move on. I agree with others here- any company that can't decide whether or not to fire you after they hear your side of the story isn't a company you want to work for. Unless you did something extremely crass to the woman boss (hit on her or said something equally as stupid and it would be obvious what her reasons are), she needs to have strong, clear reasons for firing you. Not liking you, or holding grudges against you, do not count as grown up, professional answers.

It doesn't make any sense to me that 2 of the managers are on the fence about your performance and what to do about you. Can they not make up their minds? I mean, really? It should be fairly easy for them to agree on your performance (he does this wrong, he does this right, gets a score of 10 out of 15 or whatever), figure out if letting you go is more beneficial to the company than keeping you, and go from there. I mean, on what qualifications do they hire and train people? Is this a company you want to remain working for with this on your back?

9/11/2009 6:01:57 PM

Keep the job if at all possible.

Haul ass as soon as possible.

9/11/2009 6:44:02 PM

[Edited on September 11, 2009 at 6:50 PM. Reason : Day late and a dollar short]

9/11/2009 6:46:20 PM

this treatment is unprofessional and entirely uncalled for. I'm going to guess that its the head guy's first time running a business and managing people. Its been my experience that small business owners tend to be very good at what they sell or provide, but are terrible at the operations level. If you are offered to stay on, I would only treat it as a stop gap until another opportunity, any opportunity, to move on appears. The working relationships have changed, and you will continue to live scrutinized under a microscope unless drastic changes are made on the management level. What are your long term goals and what will continuing to work for this company do to attain those goals? i know the job market is in the tank, but depending on your financial situation, the best thing you can do may be to respectfully agree to part ways.

9/11/2009 7:37:57 PM

Quote :

"Then there's the third boss, and somewhere along the lines of the last 6 months or so I fell out of her good graces and she flat out doesn't like me. "

Essentially, what I'm reading is your boss is a nice guy and is convinced that you want to improve, but this bitch has it out for you so it doesn't really matter.

Good luck finding a new job.

9/11/2009 7:43:39 PM

Yeah as a woman, I can tell you if whatever it was you did has kept her angry for this long, you're not getting your job back. Hell hath no fury blah blah blah.

9/11/2009 10:20:18 PM

Go mow all your boss' grass tomorrow. Kidding...but it sounds a greater chance they'll keep you. If he really wanted you gone you would have been done when he told you to take the time off.

9/11/2009 11:15:06 PM

Quote :

"When I leave I would thank both of them for showing me the futility of human endeavor."

9/11/2009 11:39:26 PM

Wow - just wow. Run!, don't walk, away from this forsaken office. I think I'm only echoing everyone else in this thread when I say that you boss('s) are all impotent at best and batshit crazy at worst. You have no future in this company anyway, apart from stringing your current job along uncomfortably, as long as the current management is in place. Also, is there anything else you are not including? Are "he" and "she" married or involved? In that case, sorry buddy.

I know this is a terrible job market, but I would consider just quiting outright. I don't think most people give themselves enough credit when considering whether to leave a company, no matter the economic climate. You are not tied to this employer. You provide them with a service, and unless you've been sitting around with your thumb up your ass, you've developed marketable skills while doing so. Don't fear the devil you don't know more than the one you do know.

On Monday, just tell this moron that you, too, have thought about the situation "over the weekend", and although he was "very compelling" at lunch, the situation is not right for you blah blah blah - then ask him for the help he offered finding you a job in the new field, in the form of a recommendation - he sounds like the type of asshat who would fold and do it to avoid confrontation.

9/12/2009 9:00:47 AM

this seems like a no win situation

sorry for your job loss

9/12/2009 2:12:48 PM

You went about this all wrong. I wouldn't have written a letter at all. If they're firing you, they're firing you. There's no take-backs for being fired.

Leaving you flapping in the wind is one thing, that's some bullshit.

But leaving you flapping in the wind after terminating you without any sort of documented reprimands is an entirely different level of bullshit.

You need to go in on Monday and be like "Yo, you know what? Fuck this. I'll take the firing, because you motherfuckers are inept as hell."

9/12/2009 2:59:59 PM

Quote :

"I'm going to guess that its the head guy's first time running a business and managing people. Its been my experience that small business owners tend to be very good at what they sell or provide, but are terrible at the operations level."

Bingo

Well thanks for all the input, definitely. Being my only "real" job since graduating, I thought that this kind of behavior was typical. I definitely had no idea when I made this thread that 99% of you would say how unprofessional and atypical a situation this is and I should get out regardless of the outcome on Monday. It has certainly made me feel a lot better. I will say that if I'm offered to come back on Monday that I will definitely take it for the short term, and if I'm not, I at least have unemployment to fall back on for a little while. Fortunately I have 10+ years in restaurant experience so going back to waiting tables, however much it may suck, is always a fallback.

9/12/2009 3:08:57 PM

Also, I have a feeling that the letter they asked you to write is just them trying get you to hang yourself if any unemployment situations arise.

Don't feel bad man, these things happen.

9/12/2009 3:23:59 PM

Quote :

"at least have unemployment to fall back on for a little while"

heck yea.. then you get what 6 or 12 months of getting paid to do nothing

9/12/2009 3:25:17 PM

No dice. Oh well. After thinking about it over the weekend I pretty much came to the conclusion that I didn't want to go back, so maybe it's for the best.

9/14/2009 9:04:32 AM

that sucks. are you going to be able to get unemployment?

9/14/2009 9:06:22 AM

^

hope you can.

9/14/2009 9:07:23 AM

I'm assuming I can get unemployment.

Do you think I should call my ex-boss and talk to him about it?

[Edited on September 14, 2009 at 9:28 AM. Reason : ]

9/14/2009 9:25:58 AM

It is probably for the best, man.

Also, not that it may have helped in your case, but I think someone brought up something earlier in the thread linking the strange request for you to compose a "letter to save your job" to an excuse for management to start the paperwork trail needed for firing. Perhaps someone in a similar position should instead request an in-person meeting.

9/14/2009 9:30:14 AM

I just called and told him straight up that I was gonna start filling out paperwork for unemployment and I asked if he had any problems with that and he said no. So hopefully I'll be ok there.

Anybody know the laws on keeping your benefits through COBRA? Or how that works? Am I fucked because our company has less than 20 employees?

[Edited on September 14, 2009 at 9:39 AM. Reason : ]

9/14/2009 9:36:53 AM

You'll pay out the ass for COBRA.

9/14/2009 9:39:39 AM

I found a site (cobrahealth.com) that explains how it works, and it says that NC is one of the states that has added to the law and states that plans with 2-19 employees can qualify for 18 months. That's good.

Now when you say pay out the ass, you mean like $200 a month? More?

Hey good news!

"You may qualify for short-term help paying for COBRA through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 if you lost your job between September 1, 2008 and December 31, 2009. Your former employer must notify you that you are eligible for COBRA and tell you that you may be able to keep your insurance while paying only 35% of your COBRA premiums for a limited time. The federal government pays your employer the other 65%. You cannot get this help if you will make $125,000 or more in the tax year that you want help, nor can you get it if your jointly-filed taxable amount will be $250,000 or more in that year. (The income limits used are the modified adjusted gross income.) This help can last for up to 9 months, or less if you can get new health insurance coverage."

[Edited on September 14, 2009 at 9:51 AM. Reason : Stimulus $$$ ftw]

9/14/2009 9:46:49 AM

Although i obviously only know one side of the story, this really grinds my gears... i've never heard of someone being fired so unexpectedly with so little warning, especially someone who (i assume) produces results.

9/14/2009 10:02:56 AM

it happens all the time. if you threaten the status quo or the new management has a chip on their shoulder, be ready to bail.

right to work state. they can do whatever they want. no job protections, other can using the unsafe workplace, race and sexual harassment cards.

9/14/2009 10:30:57 AM

^^Seriously? I'd have to say the OP had some inkling that the writing was on the wall. And letter writing/wtfever other second chance method RARELY works anyways... now the employee knows he's walking on eggshells and will leave, or work harder for a bit and go back to their original ways...

[Edited on September 14, 2009 at 10:35 AM. Reason : .]

9/14/2009 10:31:56 AM

^^^^a COBRA for me with IBM was $440 per month...

i ended up just rolling the dice for 3 months til i could re-enroll in my company's insurance.

9/14/2009 10:47:57 AM

My ex-boss says that COBRA will cost me $124/month. I'm not sure if that includes the 65% subsidy or not so I asked him to clarify. Either way, at least it's affordable.

Looking at the ESC NC website it also appears that there is something called the Federal Additional Compensation which adds $25 to every weekly unemployment compensation, until 2010.

9/14/2009 11:12:34 AM

I didn't read the thread, but are you able to actually get UI since you were fired? I was under the impression when you get canned, you don't get any of that.

9/14/2009 11:49:05 AM

Can somebody clarify that? There wasn't any gross misconduct so I thought I would be covered, but I really don't know.

9/14/2009 11:56:02 AM

his thread makes me very, very thankful that we have two performance reviews a year and a beginning of the year objectives meeting

9/14/2009 12:06:29 PM

https://www.ncesc1.com/individual/webInitialClaims/applyBegin.asp

This website says, "must be unemployed through no fault of their own." But if your boss isn't going to fight you, it won't be a big deal.

9/14/2009 12:08:53 PM

Could it be argued that rattler is entirely at fault because he opted not to tapdance enough to retain his job?

9/14/2009 12:16:23 PM

Ironically I work for the NCESC (Unemployment office)

I would encourage you to apply. Whatever you do decide to do, DO NOT FILE ONLINE (they have huge problems with their online system!) either go to your unemployment office to file or call the toll free number 1-877-841-9617.

Anyone can apply. The ESC will gather information from you and the employer and then a decision will be made by the state on whether or not you qualify. It never hurts to file. The worst they can say is no.

Can't say much on here, but feel free to PM me

[Edited on September 14, 2009 at 1:12 PM. Reason : #]

9/14/2009 1:07:04 PM

You can probably come out cheaper buying your own health insurance rather than using COBRA. Before I was laid off, I was paying ~$80/month for a good HRA through my employer. Under COBRA, my 35% would have been $165/month with my employer paying ~$306/month. I did opt to keep my vision insurance for $8/month, though. I now pay Aetna $108/month for health insurance.

[Edited on September 14, 2009 at 1:36 PM. Reason : /]

9/14/2009 1:35:32 PM

Agree totally with not filing online. Just get all of your shit together and show up at the esc office first thing in the morning. You have a much better chance of getting everything dealt with in one shot that way.

Key things to note: never say you were fired, never say it was based on poor performance. You got let go because of shitty management, and fight that reason to the end. Once you get approved, get on direct deposit and start looking for a new job.

9/15/2009 12:52:02 AM

Quote :

"Also, I have a feeling that the letter they asked you to write is just them trying get you to hang yourself if any unemployment situations arise."

That was my thought too.

9/15/2009 2:05:34 AM

I realize this thread is about writing a letter to save your job..... which I have not. Hear me out, maybe I can offer some insight.

I am in outside sales, which is currently salary+commission, but will move into straight commission starting at the beginning of July 2010. I have been in this position since July 2009. I have competition from several direct manufacturing sales reps, large distributors, and local distributors. Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each:

Direct Advantages: Immediate knowledge of new technology, no middle man mark up, one shipping bill (paid by manufacturer or buyer of goods), access to larger range of non-commodity items, control inventory, have access to many distributors that can effectively sell their goods which increases market share, and set prices of commodity they manufacture.

Direct disadvantages: Typically have 1-3 sales reps per region (i.e. southeast, mid-atlantic, northeast, etc.) limiting the number of accounts they can successfully manage/cold-call, lack physical customer service or physical technical service available to or affordable for smaller users or altogether, are sometimes not trustworthy because they will go in behind their distributors that sell their commodity to one account in large quantities (i.e. they missed a big account, and have found out about it through a distributor selling their particular product) which leads to the distributor not selling their product anymore, have too many distributors selling the product ultimately driving the set price down through deviations, possibly rely on distributors to actually sell the product, and competition from other direct sources.

Large distributor advantages: have access to other commodities that go hand in hand with other manufacturers (poor example- grocery stores sell milk as well as cereal), get direct pricing, many locations regionally or nationally easing the shipping burden of buyers with multiple locations, personal service either customer or technical, many sales reps that are able to cover a broader territory, access to multiple manufacturers of the same commodity allowing to keep prices in check, service programs that smaller companies can't offer and direct providers can't match in price or value, and experts of many many commodities as opposed to one or a few.

Large distributor disadvantages: smaller local distributors creating price wars (think Michael Scott Paper Co vs Dunder-Mifflin), direct mfg's going in behind and stealing business, limited access to all of the mfg's (you won't find Harris Teeter name brands in Food Lion and visa versa), can't truly set prices because it's based on both supply and demand, territory management, and tough growth prospects in slower economies (this is true for direct as well really)

Local distributor advantages: Typically a good ol' boy setting where the seller and the buyer know each other for years (this does happen at all levels, but mostly at the local level), local folks are right down the street and can be used in emergencies, if the local guy buys at high enough volumes then there is no shipping charge to the end user, and access to both direct mfg's and large distributors.

Local distributor disadvantages: easily beaten in price, array of commodities, array of technology, lack of trained staff, low cash flow, etc etc etc.

This is what I have noticed in my six months, I am sure there are plenty more that need mentioning. The way I am setting myself apart as a sales person is this: I go after the big accounts right now while I am new. The big accounts, if I land them, will take care of me while I am new and building a customer base. The money made off of those allows me to focus free time on smaller accounts that get me higher margins. I build up big accounts, I would like to have 5-10 of these, then get 20-30 medium accounts. If I lose 1 or 2 big accounts, the 20-30 medium accounts keep me afloat while I go after new big accounts. I don't really waste time on small accounts simply because they basically pay for breakfast or something really small.

I will say this, if you can't get a big account in the first 6-8 months (assuming you have cash flow that you can ride this long) you could be in a world of trouble. If you can get one, it will really make going after the others a lot more enjoyable and less stressful. It's simply just very exhausting wasting any time on anything other than big accounts in the very beginning. You work just as hard on the medium sized accounts and see 1/3 to 1/36 of the money in my situation.

If you have any other questions, you can PM me. I hope this helps in the slightest!

7/10/2010 2:19:11 AM