I think the issue many skeptics are having is the increasing vagueness of the data indicating human impact on the global climate and the wariness with which many view the almost dogmatic and religious acceptance of the concept of global climate change.

Because, let's be honest, if you're going to claim global climate change though warming, you need thermometers that show that the world, as a whole, is getting warmer. Otherwise you may have a completely different problem on your hands which you aren't addressing.

Quote :

"who in this thread is actually arguing in favor of this tax again?"

God and joe_schmoe so far.

9/25/2009 2:47:51 PM

Quote :

"I think the issue many skeptics are having is the increasing vagueness of the data indicating human impact on the global climate and the wariness with which many view the almost dogmatic and religious acceptance of the concept of global climate change. Because, let's be honest, if you're going to claim global climate change though warming, you need thermometers that show that the world, as a whole, is getting warmer. Otherwise you may have a completely different problem on your hands which you aren't addressing."

Well put, but moron doesn't care--he's just trolling.

9/25/2009 2:51:16 PM

and just to reiterate, i've said many times before that i far prefer eliminating the corn subsidy entirely. but i sadly don't think that the congress has the balls to actually move forward with legislation to do so. the subsidy is hurting our country and the food supplies of the rest of the world. it's pretty terrible policy for everyone except corn producing states.

9/25/2009 2:54:34 PM

Quote :

"Because, let's be honest, if you're going to claim global climate change though warming, you need thermometers that show that the world, as a whole, is getting warmer. Otherwise you may have a completely different problem on your hands which you aren't addressing."

But the IPCC and climate scientists have never claimed that there is not natural variation. It's not some big secret that only the so-called "skeptics" know that nature has an effect. As it states clearly in the link off of hooksaw's link (which he either didn't read, can't understand, or willfully ignores), the current data reflects more on long term trends, primarily because the source of that data is based on long-term trends (because it's very difficult to find historical evidence of shorter-term effects like the NAO).

And in fact, the combination of NAO changes and the fact that we're in a downward solar cycle is a great opportunity for scientist, because they can then compare new data to past data to fine-tune the models even more.

What you likely AREN'T going to find though is any evidence indicating the billions of tons of gasses we release into the atmosphere don't cause any meaningful effect.

But I guess people like hooksaw feel really smart when they point out that it gets cold in the winter and hot in the summer, therefore humans can't affect the climate. Precisely what you'd expect from someone who doesn't understand how science works.

[Edited on September 25, 2009 at 2:58 PM. Reason : ]

9/25/2009 2:57:38 PM

Let's stick to food.

There is an entire thread for global warming, you know.

PS* If you ever watch the show Fringe, the mad scienst Walter is a climate skeptic. He has "Cool It" on his book shelf.

9/25/2009 3:00:39 PM

If diet drinks were around in the 40s, the Nazi surely would have forced the Jews to drink them.

9/25/2009 3:02:29 PM

^^^ You haven't the foggiest (pun intended) idea of what I understand. But Socks`` is right.

back to the food fascists!

9/25/2009 3:04:38 PM

Quote :

"STOP PAYING CORN"

9/25/2009 3:22:08 PM

^^ after 13,000 posts, it’s pretty clear you don’t understand much.

9/26/2009 12:44:35 AM

9/26/2009 8:22:26 AM

too bad.

9/26/2009 8:35:24 AM

^^ haha nice pic.

Its historical experiences like the temperance movement that make me confident this sudden surge of paternalism will die down in a few years.



[Edited on September 26, 2009 at 8:28 PM. Reason : ``]

9/26/2009 8:26:43 PM

bump by request

1/11/2010 6:48:27 PM

ibth

1/11/2010 6:52:20 PM

Citing Hazard, New York Says Hold the Salt
Published: January 10, 2010

Quote :

" First New York City required restaurants to cut out trans fat. Then it made restaurant chains post calorie counts on their menus. Now it wants to protect people from another health scourge: salt. On Monday, the Bloomberg administration plans to unveil a broad new health initiative aimed at encouraging food manufacturers and restaurant chains across the country to curtail the amount of salt in their products. The plan, for which the city claims support from health agencies in other cities and states, sets a goal of reducing the amount of salt in packaged and restaurant food by 25 percent over the next five years. Public health experts say that would reduce the incidence of high blood pressure and should help prevent some of the strokes and heart attacks associated with that condition. The plan is voluntary for food companies and involves no legislation. It allows companies to cut salt gradually over five years so the change is not so noticeable to consumers."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/business/11salt.html

They "encourage" now--tomorrow, they mandate.

1/11/2010 6:56:07 PM

Maybe when we have less than 2/3rds of our country dying of eating too much fucking food while other continents are starving we can curtail such laws.

1/11/2010 6:59:38 PM

1/11/2010 7:03:00 PM

^^ The question becomes, how does reducing salt content stop people from dying of eating too much?

1/11/2010 8:43:11 PM

Clearly the answer to world hunger is to export more McDonald's to Africa.

1/11/2010 8:49:30 PM

clearly we need a massive fix in the way we deal with food

I support MASSIVE

MASSIVE

regulation on fast food, chain restaurants, and junk food (including soda) especially focusing on their advertising and marketing departments

they SHOULD put the caloric and nutritional content, clearly, right next to all products on menus and displays...

their ability to "combo" food should be severely curtailed

there should be strict controls on portion size per unit of item sold

and their ability to advertise should be crippled beyond reason

THEY are killing us as a nation

note that your ability to enjoy shitty food and stuff the shit out of yourself will not be gone

you want a massive amount of fries? order 4 portions

you want a what is currently a whopper, fries and coke? then order three burgers 4 fries and a 3 drinks you fat fuck instead of a "duhhhh, number 1 please"

you want a massive plate of pasta at the olive garden... then order three portions and be stared at by the entire restaurant

... if anyone needs some controling, it's the ad and marketing wizards who are pied pipering us straight to fat fuckville.. oh wait WE'RE ALREADY THERE

[Edited on January 11, 2010 at 9:09 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2010 9:08:21 PM

Ah, the avoidance of personal responsibility. It tastes sooooo sweet. I grew up in the same era as you did, yet somehow I'm able to not be a fat fuck. Is it because by some miracle I missed all the god damned mcdonald's commercials or is because I have self respect and willpower?

obligatory, "who are the ad wizards..."

[Edited on January 11, 2010 at 9:23 PM. Reason : asdfas]

1/11/2010 9:22:25 PM

the people who made a 20 oz soda the standard when it use to be 12 oz

the people who removed the "small" option for the combo in EVERY fast food joint

the people who invented... 4th meal

...

they are killing us... and they have convinced us that's it ok and it's ALL our fault

1/11/2010 9:26:01 PM

Look, unless you're being force fed it is your fault. You want to bitch about stuff, bitch about the low cost of food do to massive farm subsidies, bitch about the fact that food stamps allow people to buy nitrate laden bacon and processed sugar, bitch about the people who eat the damned fast food, and bitch about our lack of focus on health education in schools, but don't bitch about a business trying to make money in a semi-capitalist society.

This is akin to blaming rent-a-room for people's debt.

1/11/2010 9:32:40 PM

I hate to try to break out the fucked up patriotism.

But you don't care about America... you don't love the USA.

and... i'm being kind of serious

because I care about my country and my people MORE than I care about capitalism or fucking buisness "rights"

these people are influencing the shit out of us

you know how that is

IT'S THEIR FUCKING JOBS

what do you think advertising and marketing is for... to fucking "inform"

we all need to wake the fuck up and try control and constrain these evil motherfuckers

1/11/2010 9:35:57 PM

Oh, I love America, I love the ideals it represents. Admittedly I'm not too keen on the American people.

1/11/2010 9:49:50 PM

why, what's wrong with us?

you hate americans but you're cool with mcdonalds, coke, and the olive garden?

1/11/2010 9:51:05 PM

We are largely a nation of idiots who lack self awareness and self control.

1/11/2010 9:56:58 PM

were we always like this?

what's changed?

you don't think it might be the emergence of the corporation and the overwhelming control they have in the thoughts and processes of the public at large?

what do you hate about what we do... can you trace it back to a company in some form or fashion?

do you think that action... that bad action... would be supported and looked upon favorably by a corporation?

you can just bitch and complain, but without real solutions... it's all kind of useless

...

you have to understand that the problem I have with your argument is that it just points out the problem

"HEY, FUCKING FAT PERSON..." STOP BEING FAT AND DOING FAT PEOPLE THINGS

well, good job... but you really haven't helped fix anything

we need to get to the source of the problem... and complaining about the "morality of the republic" is just a nonsense way to go

[Edited on January 11, 2010 at 10:05 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2010 10:00:30 PM

Quote :

"we're we always like this?"

For the most part, yes. I think mass media has probably hurt some as well. people are easily led, they always have been. In the past it was usually in small groups, the expansion of the media has made it easier for demagogues and advertisers to reach larger groups.

1/11/2010 10:05:02 PM

so, you think the "greatest generation" which fought and won WWII were a bunch of "idiots who lack self awareness and self control."

1/11/2010 10:06:24 PM

Quote :

"were we always like this? what's changed? you don't think it might be the emergence of the corporation and the overwhelming control they have in the thoughts and processes of the public at large? "

We were obviously always like this.

When the constitution was written, and still today, it was hailed as a beacon of freedom and democracy… unless you were black. We fought the Nazis for their racism, while interning the japs, and blacks didn’t get the right to vote until a good ~20 years after the war.

History is always very rosy, but people for the most part are, and continue to be, lemmings. Whether our idol is God or American Idol™, it doesn’t matter. Ayn Rand was keenly aware of this idea, which is why she loved unfettered capitalism so much. It allows the people with the ambition to be the puppeteers the most ideal situations to seize power.

1/11/2010 10:12:17 PM

again.. .just like last time you stupid fucking cunt

what exactly are you fucking arguing?

1/11/2010 10:13:17 PM

haha, i’ll break it down for your pre-school level of intelligence:

Quote :

"were we always like this? "

yes

1/11/2010 10:13:56 PM

yeah, but that's not really what the thread's about

is it?

...

this was a long train of discussion

you can't jump in and be all like

"FUCK YOU, I THINK THE COLOR BLUE IS THE BEST... LA LA LA"

[Edited on January 11, 2010 at 10:15 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2010 10:14:42 PM

i can do whatever I want, I think. let me check... yep, I can.

1/11/2010 10:18:07 PM

yeah, but you make it so people don't respect anything you have to say

I didn't get past the name in your post before "stupid fucking cunt" popped into my head

1/11/2010 10:19:16 PM

I’m sorry you feel that way.

1/11/2010 10:22:57 PM

you should be

it's a sad way to go about trying to have discussions

you're not smarter than anyone here... you're not enlightening anyone

so what the fuck are you doing exactly?

you think your comments mean ANYTHING

... LOL, PEOPLE ARE LEMMINGS

really, very insightful...

[Edited on January 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2010 10:25:17 PM

Haha you seem to misunderstand the purpose of messageboards.

And you seemed to be oblivious to that basic nugget of information, i was just trying to help you out.

1/11/2010 10:27:40 PM

well, I do understand that you're motherfucking dancing about uncomfortably

without anything to say

1/11/2010 10:28:39 PM

You’re right, we can’t all have such deep and insightful thoughts like this one: http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=577207&page=2#13643218

1/11/2010 10:29:35 PM

well, I don't know about "we", but I certainly believe that YOU can't

[Edited on January 11, 2010 at 10:31 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2010 10:30:20 PM

That wouldn’t the first belief of yours that’s completely idiotic.

1/11/2010 10:31:42 PM

well, again internet nerd, you win, because I'm done

I can not believe that all this was ~ 20 minutes long...

1/11/2010 10:34:43 PM

Quote :

"Ayn Rand was keenly aware of this idea, which is why she loved unfettered capitalism so much. It allows the people with the ambition to be the puppeteers the most ideal situations to seize power."

The only entity that can "seize power" over us is the gov't...because the gov't IS force.

Capitalism is much more humane because it allows us to voluntarily trade or not trade with each other. Socialism forces you to buy what the gov't peddles or face the consequences.

Under capitalism, people with "ambition" become successful because they offer a good or service that people want. Under gov't control, your choices become fewer and less desirable.

Businesses cannot force anyone to do anything..without the cooperation of gov't.

1/11/2010 10:39:06 PM

Quote :

"THEY are killing us as a nation"

No, I'm pretty sure it's the people that are ordering third pounders, super sized, with an apple pie that are killing themselves. McDonalds is just helping the process along. Incidentally, how do you feel about euthanasia?

1/11/2010 10:47:01 PM

Quote :

"The only entity that can "seize power" over us is the gov't...because the gov't IS force. "

This is so painfully wrong, that I'm going to have to go pop some vicodin now.

The gov. was developed to its point today to essentially control growing power among the robber barons.

[Edited on January 11, 2010 at 11:03 PM. Reason : ]

1/11/2010 11:03:11 PM

^ Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the government development to its point today was sold as a way to control growing power among robber barons, but has proven to be a method of consolidating and perpetuating their powers? Or does it not concern anyone else that we had a crisis of "too big to fail" banks and the government subsequently approved mergers and acquisitions to make bigger banks?

1/11/2010 11:30:43 PM

Quote :

"Maybe when we have less than 2/3rds of our country dying of eating too much fucking food"

How about we start with ending the corn subsidies which make so much processed food so cheap? Mexican corn farmers using decades old tractors cannot compete with US farmers using $250k combines to work their property.

Seriously, what is the logic in having the government regulate the very activities it promotes through it's own policies? The hypocrisy here is stunning.

Quote :

"you think the "greatest generation" which fought and won WWII were a bunch of "idiots who lack self awareness and self control.""

No, you know what made them different? They knew they were responsible for their own actions in life. They didn't have fuckwits attempting to create a paternalistic government which would shield them from the consequences of their actions and steer them towards the bureaucratically mandated version of health and happiness.


It is really quite brilliant if you think about it. The wards of the paternalistic society convince you that you cannot be held responsible for your actions, removing all negative consequences, then are surprised when people act if there are no consequences. They blame those completely logical (within the context) decisions on "too much freedom" and seek to remove even more opportunity for you to live (or die) by your own actions. Circle of slavery man.

1/12/2010 2:22:15 AM

My pursuit of Happiness includes occasionally having a double quarter pounder with cheese and a large french fries. Just because fatasses can't manage the "occasionally" part doesn't mean I should be punished.

Putting too much food in your mouth is a behavior, not a disease.

Seriously, fuck everyone who thinks they know better than me what I should be doing with my life.

1/12/2010 11:03:14 AM