what we really need is a volcanic island of desperation, push you out a helo 15 feet up on to a barren volcanic blot in the middle of the pacific (or a barren atoll, no trees) 100+ miles from shipping lanes, the area would be monitered by rings of remote radar and sonar bouys 10, 25 and 70 miles out (to prevent pick ups) all attempts and breaking the rings are met with a cruise missile or torpedo. let the fuckers resort to eating eachother and then starving to death slowly as they suffer in the elements.

11/17/2009 10:18:52 AM

^I was actually reading this tread and going to post something very similar


for those against capital punishment, this is a viable option. People who break the laws of society to such a degree do not deserve to be apart of society, or supported by the members of society who can live up to the standard moral codes set forth by the society. Thus, you break a law like this, then you need to get the hell out. Drop them on an island and let them figure shit out for themselves, and make sure there is no way for them to leave this island or for anyone/thing to get to them to help them out

11/17/2009 10:30:52 AM

I see a lot of cruel and unusual punishments being described. I wonder if these same people defend the 2nd amendment as loosely as they do the 8th.

[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 10:44 AM. Reason : I'm not spoon feeding you.]

11/17/2009 10:36:33 AM

what does the right to bare arms and to raise state militias have to do with cruel and unusual punishment?



and banning someone from society for the crimes they have commited is not in any way cruel or unusual to me... sure it isn't practiced, but how is it any more cruel than capital punishment? and this way you don't have to be the one to pull the trigger or flip the switch on the criminal, you leave it to nature


they have abused the rights given of being in a society, and thus should not benefit from all the luxuries (shelter, food, electricity, clothes, medicine, etc...)

I'm not saying you put a money launderer on an island- just anyone you would currently punish by death


[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 10:46 AM. Reason : this seems like a soap box discussion ]

11/17/2009 10:41:49 AM

They're both in the Bill of Rights?

11/17/2009 10:43:53 AM

I don't condone cruelty. I feel that lifelong isolation in relative safety, and the resulting overt mental anguish, are sufficient punishments for anyone to sustain until their natural deaths arrive.

11/17/2009 10:46:38 AM

^^yes, but how does that argument apply in here? firstly i don't see my idea as cruel and unusual, and secondly how does my right to bare arms have any affect on what should be done to someone who does not obey the laws of society?


^I really don't think it is... they have murdered (and more than likely raped) a 5 year old- to be able to do something like that in the first place makes me believe that there will be no remorse, and if they do show any, it will be in an attempt to get pity - and if you think about it, my idea gives them time to think about what they have done... just not in a nice temperature controlled room, receiving 3 squares for the rest of their lives while contributing nothing back to society



[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 10:51 AM. Reason : j]

11/17/2009 10:48:06 AM

Quote :

"I don't condone cruelty. I feel that lifelong isolation in relative safety, and the resulting overt mental anguish, are sufficient punishments for anyone to sustain until their natural deaths arrive."

So you feel that conferring a life of mental anguish upon a person is not cruel? BTW, I am totally for cruel punishment under some circumstances.

11/17/2009 10:49:41 AM

you also run the chance that the person, you know, could be innocent.

but cherrypicking which amendments of the constitution you believe in is an american thing to do.

11/17/2009 10:51:01 AM

Some may call that cruelty, but I view it as a chance at repentance or atonement. It is a far lesser evil, and greater justice, than anything else mentioned ITT, IMHO.

11/17/2009 10:51:34 AM

Quote :

"^^yes, but how does that argument apply in here? firstly i don't see my idea as cruel and unusual, and secondly how does my right to bare arms have any affect on what should be done to someone who does not obey the laws of society?"

In his defense, he was phrasing a question where he was wondering if someone who strongly defends the second amendment would go along with this loose defense of the 8th. Seems like a fair question to me. There are lots of hypocrites out there... pro-lifers who support the death penalty... and I'd say defending one amendment in the Bill of Rights and ignoring another because you feel emotional about a particular crime is hypocritical or illogical or both.

11/17/2009 11:00:03 AM

i believe in them all- i think the question ITT is the interpretation of cruel and unusual. I don't think we should be torturing prisoners (that is cruel) but isolation from society is not in my mind

11/17/2009 11:06:26 AM

a lot of hilarious victorian moral attitudes itt

it couldn't be that some people are mentally unstable. let's call them "evil" and then blame their disposition and free will. then we can get off on being morally superior and vent our own violent tendencies on those who "deserve it".

it beats the hell out of treating mental illness and crime scientifically!

11/17/2009 12:13:19 PM

Quote :

"it couldn't be that some people are mentally unstable"

and always will be...but no you're right, everyone can be saved! no pedophile murderer left behind!

11/17/2009 12:15:03 PM

clearly that's what i'm saying tree twista

clearly

11/17/2009 12:16:01 PM

you don't say anything clearly, why should you start now

just face it, you respect the life of a pedophile murderer more than an 8.5 month fetus

you have great morals yourself!

11/17/2009 12:16:31 PM

what you're saying is based on what?

11/17/2009 12:18:27 PM

Based on the fact that

1) everything you've said in this thread indicates that you don't think this murdering pedophile should be put to death

2) you've said in the past that you don't think a fetus is a "life" until it is born

simple logic says you value the life of a murderous pedophile more than the...existence of an 8 1/2 month fetus

Are you now denying this? Seems like something you'd be proud of.

11/17/2009 12:22:26 PM

Quote :

"2) you've said in the past that you don't think a fetus is a "life" until it is born"

hmm wrong

11/17/2009 12:23:04 PM

I could save you all of that search time by telling you what my position has been for years: we shouldn't perform abortions where there is sophisticated enough neural activity to support a mental life. Since it's not like there's a hard line in time where this happens, I'd prefer erring on the side of caution.

11/17/2009 12:28:38 PM

This guy and his accomplices: http://www.liveleak.com/item?a=view&token=f04_1258418085

11/17/2009 12:31:52 PM

^^might wanna revisit this and reassess your views on murderers vs. fetuses

message_topic.aspx?topic=541240

unless stuff you said as Str8Foolish "doesn't count"

11/17/2009 12:38:41 PM

It does count since it's me. What's unclear about this statement to you:

Quote :

"If the fetus is at a point where it has brain-wave activity, it's more valuable than the killer or the rapist. If you mean any unborn potential life, then if it has no brainwave activity yet then the killer or the rapist."

11/17/2009 12:40:10 PM

thats why i changed my wording

Quote :

"simple logic says you value the life of a murderous pedophile more than the...existence of an 8 1/2 month fetus"

11/17/2009 12:46:23 PM

But I don't by the criterion I specified over a year ago

Do you even understand the point you're trying to make

11/17/2009 12:47:05 PM

Yeah because I actually elaborate points I'm making, I don't just post clues for other people to figure out

Let me ask a very simple question: Why do you value the life of this murderer pedophile?

11/17/2009 12:48:07 PM

Because it's a human life, that's why

I honestly don't believe somebody who could act in this way is mentally stable. Something is obviously wrong, something that could be addressed. Obviously the person needs to be separated from society, but I believe more in rehabilitation and treatment than Draconian punishment-boner-building.

11/17/2009 12:49:44 PM

What about the 5 year old girl's human life that he took, after raping her? Defending that piece of trash is worse than any "punishment-boner-building"

And do you think every mentally ill person can be treated? Thats a lot of faith in humanity, given how much of a negative stance you have towards so many groups of people

11/17/2009 12:56:36 PM

I'm not entirely sure how you see what I'm saying as a "defense" of him or his actions

I feel awful for the girl, are you kidding me? That doesn't mean feeling awful for her translates into blood-lust, for me. I feel bad for anybody capable of doing what that guy did ... especially since I truly believe you have to be uncontrollably unhinged to do it.

Something's causing this behavior and surprisingly it's not pixie dust or inherent evil!

Quote :

"And do you think every mentally ill person can be treated?"

Clearly not but that doesn't mean I think they should be euthanized if they can't be treated.

[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 12:58 PM. Reason : .]

11/17/2009 12:57:55 PM

^^Don't let your emotions get in the way of your logic.

[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 12:58 PM. Reason : ]

11/17/2009 12:58:11 PM

Quote :

"Something's causing this behavior and surprisingly it's not pixie dust or inherent evil!"

How about inherent crazy?

Quote :

"Clearly not but that doesn't mean I think they should be euthanized if they can't be treated."

well like I said on page 1, if you are truly a pacifist, then yeah I see how someone could be opposed to killing anyone...I just don't think you're truly a pacifist

[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

11/17/2009 12:58:32 PM

Quote :

"How about inherent crazy?"

Yes clearly something's wrong. Some things are treatable and some aren't. Some things will eventually become treatable that aren't yet, too ... it's not like the set of "treatable" things stays fixed through time.

Quote :

"well like I said on page 1, if you are truly a pacifist, then yeah I see how someone could be opposed to killing anyone...I just don't think you're truly a pacifist"

I'm not exactly a pacifist but I don't agree with euthanizing the mentally ill

[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

11/17/2009 1:00:32 PM

So if someone is perceived to be mentally ill, they shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of their actions? Plenty of lawyers have gotten people off with the mentally ill card when they weren't mentally ill

Unless you want to use the definition that anyone who kills someone in cold blood must have some type of mental illness, in which case no murderers should ever be killed

How about serial killers? They have some bad shit going on in their brains. That doesn't mean they deserve to live. How many lives does someone have to take before its acceptable to take theirs and prevent them from taking any more innocent lives?

11/17/2009 1:12:19 PM

Quote :

"it beats the hell out of treating mental illness and crime scientifically!"

McDouche



Science!

[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 1:17 PM. Reason : Feed them to the fucking crows. ]

11/17/2009 1:16:56 PM

Quote :

"So if someone is perceived to be mentally ill, they shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of their actions?"

Being removed from society and placed into a mental institution is "dealing with the consequences". Do you think we should take the people down at Dorothea Dix and throw them into jail instead? It's how we used to deal with "evil", which is just a catch-all word for "stuff I don't agree with and don't understand the mechanism behind".

Quote :

"Plenty of lawyers have gotten people off with the mentally ill card when they weren't mentally ill"

This has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

Quote :

"Unless you want to use the definition that anyone who kills someone in cold blood must have some type of mental illness, in which case no murderers should ever be killed"

Murderers should only be killed if killing them is in the act of self-defense. Once they're in custody they should be detained.

The types of crimes that "normal" people are capable of are likely crimes of passion. Anything premeditated requires a severely fucked up individual.

Quote :

"How about serial killers? They have some bad shit going on in their brains. That doesn't mean they deserve to live. How many lives does someone have to take before its acceptable to take theirs and prevent them from taking any more innocent lives?"

Life in prison or some other facility prevents them from taking more lives. It's not like our choice set is "kill" or "set free". I think your usage of "deserve" here is strange. Do people with severe retardation "deserve" to live if their condition causes them to do something bad? It seems like these people need to be separated and treated, or in the case where there's no treatment available, simply separated. What benefit is there to punishing them other than you feeling good on the inside that you're causing somebody pain WHO DESERVES IT (strokes peen).

11/17/2009 1:20:34 PM

capital punishment is meant more as a deterant than as a punishment. If you take this fear away (the fear of death) and say that if you kill someone, you will receive 3 squares, a place to live, and never have to work a day in your life again? are you kidding me? you need that fear of ultimate punishment to prevent people from committing horrible crimes


and the idea of isolation from society completely would do the same thing- no one wants to be dropped in the middle of no where with nothing given to them and the knowledge that you will never return

11/17/2009 1:24:35 PM

Quote :

"capital punishment is meant more as a deterant than as a punishment. If you take this fear away (the fear of death) and say that if you kill someone, you will receive 3 squares, a place to live, and never have to work a day in your life again? are you kidding me? you need that fear of ultimate punishment to prevent people from committing horrible crimes"

hmm yeah because being in the federal pen is awesome

if federal pen becomes more attractive an option than daily life we have more problems to address than deterrent-mechanisms

Quote :

"and the idea of isolation from society completely would do the same thing- no one wants to be dropped in the middle of no where with nothing given to them and the knowledge that you will never return"

why don't we just nuke them from orbit

11/17/2009 1:27:10 PM

Quote :

"capital punishment is meant more as a deterant than as a punishment. If you take this fear away (the fear of death) and say that if you kill someone, you will receive 3 squares, a place to live, and never have to work a day in your life again? are you kidding me? you need that fear of ultimate punishment to prevent people from committing horrible crimes "

that's a flawed theory... i will tried to find the article, but studies have shown that this isn't true.. the murder rate in states without the death penalty is actually lower than states that enforce it.

11/17/2009 1:28:33 PM

^^have you read a single one of my posts earlier in this thread?

go back and find where I say we should kill them...



I am saying remove them from society completely so they are no longer a burden to the people that can obey the laws and moral code of society


people commit crimes to get put in jail and get off the streets- habitual offenders

life in jail is much better for them than life on the outside- and if they can kill someone and get life in prison without the fear of lethal injection, I think you would see alot more



[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 1:31 PM. Reason : aa]

11/17/2009 1:28:38 PM

Quote :

"I am saying remove them from society completely so they are no longer a burden to the people that can obey the laws and moral code of society"

You realize that 100 years ago your policy would result in every single mental patient being shipped to Fantasy Island right?

11/17/2009 1:29:52 PM

11/17/2009 1:31:06 PM

^^you realize that was 100 years ago and we have moved past to diagnose these people as mentally ill, and come up for treatment for them


do you realize that 100 years ago blacks were segregated? do you realize that 100 years ago the leading cause of death was TB and Pneumonia? do you realize that 100 years ago, we didn't know smoking was bad for you?

11/17/2009 1:34:03 PM

Quote :

"^^you realize that was 100 years ago and we have moved past to diagnose these people as mentally ill, and come up for treatment for them"

What makes you think we've completely nailed what is and isn't a disorder, and what is and isn't treatable? Do you really have this much faith in contemporary psychology, psychiatry, and neuroscience? No scientists share your enthusiasm.

Quote :

"do you realize that 100 years ago blacks were segregated? do you realize that 100 years ago the leading cause of death was TB and Pneumonia? do you realize that 100 years ago, we didn't know smoking was bad for you?"

Do you realize you're not making a point?

11/17/2009 1:47:19 PM

some of you people should do a little reading before throwing out random statements

studies have overwhelmingly shown that the death penalty is not only not a deterrent, it is also more expensive than a life-time sentence

http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/communications/reports/summer06/capitalpunish

11/17/2009 1:47:47 PM

Quote :

"What benefit is there to punishing them other than you feeling good on the inside that you're causing somebody pain WHO DESERVES IT (strokes peen)."

Yeah yeah yeah, or we can take a savage murdering rapist and, despite the pleas of the victims' families to put the savage murdering rapist to death, we can lock him up, and then YOU can feel good on the inside that you helped save a life, even though its the life of a savage murdering rapist who has no compassion for anyone else's life...and then YOU can stroke YOUR peen because of how good YOU feel

Quote :

"the death penalty is not only not a deterrent, it is also more expensive than a life-time sentence"

and thats stupid...i know its true, but its dumb...the death itself isnt expensive, its basically paying for the appeals process, and housing the person for the years and years it takes for them to finally come up for execution

11/17/2009 1:48:26 PM

^^^you realize that was me doing exactly what you did? you pointed out something from 100 years ago that is completely not the case and irrelevant to the conversation

[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 1:49 PM. Reason : ^]

11/17/2009 1:48:54 PM

Quote :

"And you can take a savage murdering rapist and, despite the pleas of the victims' families to put the savage murdering rapist to death, you can lock him up, and then YOU can feel good on the inside that you helped save a life, even though its the life of a savage murdering rapist who has no compassion for anyone else's life...and then YOU can stroke YOUR peen because of how good YOU feel"

Nothing about these situations makes me feel good. I'd rather deal with things in a measured, rational, empirically-driven way than "well the family wants blood I guess we should give everybody an emotional high by causing more death/suffering".

Quote :

"^^^you realize that was me doing exactly what you did? you pointed out something from 100 years ago that is completely not the case and irrelevant to the conversation"

You can't be serious. I was suggesting that we haven't quite nailed what makes people tick yet -- in this case, we'd be sending a lot of legitimately mentally ill people to Biofreak's Rape Island (today, not just 100 years ago although 100 years ago we'd be sending a lot more to be sure).

[Edited on November 17, 2009 at 1:50 PM. Reason : .]

11/17/2009 1:49:28 PM

Quote :

"Nothing about these situations makes me feel good."

No, it makes you feel great that your moral superiority supports saving a life, despite it being the life of an evil person...and while we're all jerking it furiously to the thought of justice being served, you're about to bust from your own self righteous kick

11/17/2009 1:50:54 PM

Quote :

"No, it makes you feel great that your moral superiority supports saving a life, despite it being the life of an evil person...and while we're all jerking it furiously to the thought of justice being served, you're about to bust from your own self righteous kick"

Textbook case of psychological projection here

Also lol at "evil"

When will you idiots pull your minds out of the dark ages?

11/17/2009 1:52:05 PM

haha biofreaks rape island...

11/17/2009 1:52:22 PM