Can't we get some love for the bill of rights in here

or at least some acknowledgment that we're lucky to have it

12/29/2009 8:53:12 AM

we are lucky to have it.

and to the idiots on the last page I'm not making blanket statements.

12/29/2009 9:00:41 AM

so you understand that you're just making an emotional reaction that is actually a terrible course of action in practical terms for any government that wants to have a semi-fair justice system?

12/29/2009 9:07:41 AM

nope

12/29/2009 9:16:42 AM

so you think a justice system can legitimately withhold the right to a trial to individuals based on their unilateral assessment of the severity of the crime committed/assurance of guilt? what happens when there is a case that is a little less certain? who makes this decision?

12/29/2009 9:20:39 AM

okay maybe i said "nope" just to get a rise out of you

12/29/2009 9:39:09 AM

Right.

12/29/2009 9:51:39 AM

i see you, too, can post one word posts.

I still have no problem with the punishment, IN THIS INSTANCE.

12/29/2009 9:55:10 AM

I don't think "eye for an eye" is a good doctrine when it comes to justice. Jailtime, as well as payment to the victims, would have sufficed. Of course, they don't see it that way. Christians in this country have, for the most part, learned to ignore the barbaric parts of the bible (except the part about gays or anything that supports their bigotry). I don't see why followers of Islam can't do the same.

12/29/2009 9:59:34 AM

TKE-Teg, get out and never come back.

God, I wish the moderator of this forum would ban idiots like this.

12/29/2009 10:06:27 AM

^^^If you're gonna go making exceptions to the rules like these, then the rules don't mean anything anymore.

You can't oppose cruel and unusual punishment some of the time. It has to be all of the time.

Otherwise, why even bother opposing it in the first place?

Do you understand?

[Edited on December 29, 2009 at 10:09 AM. Reason : ?]

12/29/2009 10:09:11 AM

Quote :

"The attitude that leads men to cut off a woman's nose is precisely the same attitude that leads a judge to order the removal of the men's noses. It's all barbaric."

That's one of the stupidest things I have ever read. Really? Same attitude?

Quote :

"fuck eye for an eye put a bullet in each of their heads"

That's not just. I want those animals to die as well, but that's too easy for them. They have to suffer the same pain, humiliation, and social/family ostracism that their victim will suffer for the rest of her life.

Quote :

"Well, shit, you've convinced me with that eloquent argument. The only way to deter barbaric acts is to commit barbaric acts."

It is not the only way, but it is definitely the strongest way. And I am for this punishment in this case not mainly because it will be a deterrent. But because it is fair.

Quote :

"you get a flat tire on the interstate while going 60mph, accidentally crash into the car next to you causing the kid inside to die, that means WE get to set your kid on fire."

Not only is that missing intent as others pointed out, there is also the illogicality in there of punishing a relative of the criminal. If someone does run over a child on purpose and it is proved, then that person should be killed, not that person's child. I expected better from you, God. You can oppose the punishment all you want, but come on, saying doubly illogical stuff?

Quote :

"yes. i suggest that this guy goes into jail. harming him isn't going to put this woman's face back together."

Neither is putting them in jail. So why not let them go? Or just fine them? Jail time is punishment that punishes them for their barbaric act, but it lacks justice. Doing to them what they did to her not only punishes them, but also ensures justice, and also ensures that they will suffer the same mental trauma and social humiliation that the victim will suffer for the rest of her life.

Quote :

"0EPII1, Lokken, bigun20, and TKE-Teg are retarded. I mean, what happened to this woman is tragic but we're fairly distanced from her, and we've all had time to recover from an emotional reaction and be reasonable....but they're still siding with Pakistan on this issue."

Yes, that was my initial emotional reaction. It is also my current non-emotional reaction. This is an exceptional circumstance. It is not a case of someone punching a woman in the heat of the moment. It is deliberate planned mutilation. Give them a trial, and if they are found to be sane, cut their ears and noses off.

Quote :

"^^^If you're gonna go making exceptions to the rules like these, then the rules don't mean anything anymore. You can't oppose cruel and unusual punishment some of the time. It has to be all of the time."

US courts and judges make exceptions all the time. (giving less/more punishment than normal when there are unusual circumstances). And like I said, this is a somewhat widespread phenomenon in Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh. Dowry burnings, gang-rapes to settle land disputes, acid-throwing on face, honor-killings, etc. This requires harsh punishment.

12/29/2009 3:29:16 PM

^thank you, well said.

Especially this:

Quote :

"Neither is putting them in jail. So why not let them go? Or just fine them? Jail time is punishment that punishes them for their barbaric act, but it lacks justice. Doing to them what they did to her not only punishes them, but also ensures justice, and also ensures that they will suffer the same mental trauma and social humiliation that the victim will suffer for the rest of her life."

God, go fuck yourself you pompous tool.

12/29/2009 3:39:11 PM

You clearly don't know anything about prison.

Spend a month in a maximum security prison in Texas and then tell me whether or not you think it's a pampered paradise.

12/29/2009 4:09:52 PM

Quote :

"Jail time is punishment that punishes them for their barbaric act, but it lacks justice. Doing to them what they did to her not only punishes them, but also ensures justice, and also ensures that they will suffer the same mental trauma and social humiliation that the victim will suffer for the rest of her life."

If someone sliced up my daughters face, I'd want to kill the fucker in the worst way possible. But that's still not justice; it's revenge. And the state shouldn't be promoting revenge. It sends the wrong kind of message to the deranged in our society, and would result in more of this behavior. It won't be a deterrent.

12/29/2009 4:54:15 PM

What's the difference between justice and revenge?

12/29/2009 5:03:20 PM

^Well, now we're getting into the whole "Why punish?" debate.

Quote :

"0EPII1: US courts and judges make exceptions all the time. (giving less/more punishment than normal when there are unusual circumstances). And like I said, this is a somewhat widespread phenomenon in Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh. Dowry burnings, gang-rapes to settle land disputes, acid-throwing on face, honor-killings, etc. This requires harsh punishment."

They do not make exceptions for the Bill of Rights.

In fact, violation of these rights can be reason to throw out legitimate evidence that could convict a guilty man. In other words, guilty people can go free when you fuck with these basic rights.


I understand there are some problems with extreme cruelty towards women in certain parts of the world, but I disagree that maintaing a cruel criminal justice system will fix that.

[Edited on December 29, 2009 at 5:29 PM. Reason : ]

12/29/2009 5:29:01 PM

Quote :

"If someone sliced up my daughters face, I'd want to kill the fucker in the worst way possible."

and that's why it wouldn't be your decision what the person's punishment would be.

12/29/2009 6:07:23 PM

Quote :

"What's the difference between justice and revenge?"

I would say that justice is carried out with society's best interests and revenge is just payback for a crime.

[Edited on December 29, 2009 at 6:16 PM. Reason : ^ Right. I agree.]

12/29/2009 6:15:24 PM

Quote :

"And apparently, Lokken and bigun20 are really proud of themselves for grasping intent. They understand intent, but cruel and unusual punishment just flies right over their heads."

I would like you to demonstrate anywhere in this thread where I have a lack of understanding of cruel and unusual punishment.

Show me where I do not get the concept of that item. Please.

More than likely you will take what I said out of context again and try to come off witty because goddamn we can all tell by your post history you're one of the dumbest cunts on this website.

12/30/2009 5:38:15 PM

^You said:

Quote :

"Lokken: fuck eye for an eye put a bullet in each of their heads"

The Supreme Court ruled that cruel and unusual back in the 70's:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0408_0238_ZC2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_v._Georgia

If the Court maintains that the death penalty is cruel and unusual under the Eighth Amendment for a man who rapes and "accidentally" kills a woman after breaking into her home, I sincerely doubt your recommendation of the death penalty for the two men here is anything but cruel and unusual.

12/31/2009 12:08:17 AM

I support and defend the constitution except when it stops my ability to barbarically avenge deaths.

12/31/2009 8:26:44 AM

^^ and where, again, did I indicate that I did not know that or understand that?

and how is that at all related to my response to the extremity of God's post?

12/31/2009 11:51:13 AM

^When you said we should execute them.


By the way, I'm actually pretty positive that you understand what cruel and unusual punishment is. It's a fairly simple concept. I just thought it was funny that you were all excited about how God was going to "throw intent right out the window" in his scenario, while you were ready to ignore the Eighth Amendment to the Bill of Rights in an actual case.

12/31/2009 4:43:33 PM

Some people condone women's faces being mutilated, ITT.

12/31/2009 4:44:31 PM

Some people condone people's faces getting mutilated, ITT.

12/31/2009 4:51:02 PM

Quote :

"while you were ready to ignore the Eighth Amendment to the Bill of Rights in an actual case."

fortunately they don't apply in this actual case

12/31/2009 5:21:14 PM

Intent doesn't apply in God's hypothetical.

12/31/2009 6:01:07 PM

2 pieces of wisdom in this thread...

Quote :

"The attitude that leads men to cut off a woman's nose is precisely the same attitude that leads a judge to order the removal of the men's noses. It's all barbaric."

Did you also know that the attitude that leads some men to jump from bridges to commit suicide is precisely the same attitude that leads other men to do BASE jumping from bridges? It's all fucking insane!!!

Quote :

"And the state shouldn't be promoting revenge. It sends the wrong kind of message to the deranged in our society, and would result in more of this behavior."

Yes, people would mutilate more and more women just to have a chance at being mutilated themselves! Who knew it... the majority of humans are hardcore sadomasochists?!

1/1/2010 9:35:48 AM

Ahahaha you two-bit, barbaric mother fuckers.

Thank god your type is dying out, albeit slowly.

1/1/2010 10:06:28 AM

nvm. You put prunes in cake. Why am i arguing with you?

[Edited on January 1, 2010 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

1/1/2010 2:01:26 PM

Does 700,000 rupees go a long way? I mean, is she set for life?

Were I the victim, I'd definitely want > $20 million for lost future quality of life, and possibly income, depending on how badly the crime had impacted my abilities.

I believe in justice. Therefore, my only inner conflict is: they didn't rob her...so for true justice to be dealt, she should actually receive $0, and they should get cut. But this clearly does her no practical good.

[Edited on January 5, 2010 at 10:07 AM. Reason : ]

1/5/2010 10:07:13 AM

700,000 is about $15,000.


What a joke.

1/5/2010 10:49:08 AM

I never heard anyone respond to this:

Quote :

"Neither is putting them in jail. So why not let them go? Or just fine them?"

No punishment will restore her face, so why punish them at all?

1/5/2010 12:09:44 PM

^Some argue that punishing offenders will deter similar offenses in the future.

Others would say there are some behaviors that violate society's values, and punishments are in place to express and enforce those values.

Some are strictly out for revenge.

Still others might suggest that these two men have some sort of maiming problem, and the only way to keep them from maiming again is to remove them from society.

Those are the reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

But I do believe there are a lot of things that we punish that we shouldn't even bother with...politicians and lawmakers and whatnot just keep up the punishing because it's good to look "tough on crime" or because the punishment at least appears to address a problem (even when it doesn't).

1/5/2010 1:51:47 PM

Deterrence - Killing these offenders would probably be the best deterrent (not saying it's particularly effective itself, just the best).

Condemnation - Killing these offenders would provide the greatest level of condemnation for this act.

Revenge - Maiming them would fulfill the strictest sense of this purpose. Killing them would be unfair. (not that I think they deserve fairness)

Societal Protection - Killing them is the most effective way of removing them from society.
----------------------------
What you didn't mention is Rehabilitation, which is honestly the only reason why you'd ever put someone in jail: you expect them to learn from their shitheadedness and one day become a productive member of society again.

So in terms of the above, it seems to me like putting these animals down would fulfill most objectives of punishment. I doubt face-maiming animals can be rehabilitated so why put them in jail? Maiming them would probably be fairly effective deterrence and condemnation though, so it seems reasonable, though you're throwing societal protection out the window.

Is there any logical reason why they shouldn't be maimed or killed? Or is it simply an issue of morality?

1/5/2010 2:44:33 PM

Quote :

"disco_stu: Is there any logical reason why they shouldn't be maimed or killed?"

Yes, there is. Why do you think the men who demanded and the men who wrote the Bill of Rights devoted a portion of it to banning cruel and unusual punishment? Do you think maybe there were problems when governments were permitted to dole out maiming/arbitrary killing as punishments?

1/5/2010 3:05:48 PM

They demanded it because kings had been doling out cruel and unusual punishment for even petty crimes for centuries. This doesn't mean that there aren't some crimes that deserve punishment that would be considered cruel and unusual if applied to lesser crimes, hence why we murder (some) murderers and it's not considered cruel and unusual by our courts.

Punishment should fit the crime, surely we agree on this. I am of the opinion that a crime of this nature is appropriately punished by death. I also think that aggravated rape (not stauatory rape) should also be punished with death. In your example above, I think the Supreme Court failed in their ruling.

1/5/2010 3:26:55 PM

in some cases like this,

Quote :

"sounds fair to me...make an example out of these clowns like they thought they would do to that poor girl."

agree

1/5/2010 3:47:29 PM

^^ Well put.

1/5/2010 6:27:55 PM

Quote :

"disco_stu: I am of the opinion that a crime of this nature is appropriately punished by death."

I disagree. And you understand that I have a little more credibility than you since you already let us know that you don't think these two men "deserve fairness."

1/5/2010 8:09:56 PM

Wow some of you are hardcore.

1/5/2010 8:18:00 PM

You automatically have "more credibility" because you think mutilating animals deserve fairness? Did the innocent woman deserve to be mutilated? Was it fair for her to subjected to such an atrocity? Why the fuck do you care about these animals?

1/6/2010 1:14:39 AM

^ Look, according to McDanger, ANY person who commits any serious crime HAS to be mentally insane, and so should never be jailed, but institutionalized. He said it himself, in a thread in chit chat that ideally no one should ever go to jail, rather, put in an institution. Since he is a computer scientist cum philosopher, he has the inside on the workings of the human brain, that even no established scientists know about!

Quote :

"McDanger: Ahahaha you two-bit, barbaric mother fuckers. Thank god your type is dying out, albeit slowly."

Unfortunately, soft-on-crime know-it-all pussifying/pussified assholes like you are multiplying.

RAWR RAWR RAWR ANYBODY who rapes or murders or mutilates HAS TO BE insane....

DIRKA DIRKA DIRKA be NICE to them....

***********************************************************************

I have a solution for this, and it is best reasoning I can come up with for cutting their faces off:

If someone steals from you and you sue them, they are obligated to return your property. If they lost it or used it up, the court digs into their property to give to you something/cash of equal value.

Well, these animals stole this woman's ears and nose. Do they have them? No. So, the court should order their noses and ears to be chopped off, then sent to a top-notch plastic surgeon (at the expense of the animals + charity + government) to be molded into a perfect nose and perfect ears for the woman, which should then be attached to her by the best surgeons.

It is the only FAIR and JUST solution.

Otherwise, set them free, because jailing them WILL NOT BRING THIS WOMAN'S ORGANS BACK.

************************************************************************

I am going to repeat my previous post here, because the sages who came up with them had nothing to say:

2 pieces of wisdom in this thread...

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: The attitude that leads men to cut off a woman's nose is precisely the same attitude that leads a judge to order the removal of the men's noses. It's all barbaric."

Did you also know that the attitude that leads some men to jump from bridges to commit suicide is precisely the same attitude that leads other men to do BASE jumping from bridges? It's all fucking insane!!!

Quote :

"OopsPowSrprs: And the state shouldn't be promoting revenge. It sends the wrong kind of message to the deranged in our society, and would result in more of this behavior."

Yes, people would mutilate more and more women just to have a chance at being mutilated themselves! Who knew it... the majority of humans are hardcore sadomasochists?!

1/6/2010 6:03:34 AM

That's really not what he's saying OEP but I honestly don't think anyone who wrote a reply like you just did has the mental facility to gauge what constitutes justice.

1/6/2010 2:26:55 PM

Quote :

"computer scientist cum philosopher"

hehehehe

1/6/2010 2:31:21 PM

^^ not everybody can have a high iq "mental facility" like you do grow up.

1/6/2010 4:16:44 PM

You're telling me to grow up after you wrote a rant with phrases like "RAWR RAWR RAWR ANYBODY" and "DIRKA DIRKA DIRKA be NICE?"

1/7/2010 11:35:43 AM

Ah, another asshole has returned from his winter vacation.

1/7/2010 11:57:44 AM

I fit the TSB like a custom glove.

1/7/2010 12:06:39 PM