Quote :

"How does history contribute to that?"

Without understanding the context of how you got to where you are, it is nearly impossible to determine where you should go from here.

Quote :

"And what use is that? What the point in teaching students something that, most likely, they will forget because they never need to use it? I'd be willing to bet far less people know who the second president is over the freezing point of water, or what a transmission does, or what the tax form they get from their employer is called, or can name an operating system of a computer"

I think you would find very few people here suggesting that the names of all the presidents is useful historical knowledge. However, knowing why we had a second president, why and how said president (and subsequent ones) came to be, and the historical, national and legal significance of that on the other hand is. It essentially defines the how and why of our country.

2/8/2010 12:41:22 AM

Quote :

"Again, it forges their national, their tribal identities."

Just for the sake of argument, how important is that identity in an increasingly globalized world? Couldn't the early stages of american history be explained in the larger context of human movement away from old world monarchies and towards modern democracies?

2/8/2010 5:36:59 AM

This may sound crazy to some but I never understood why history and literature aren't combined. A few of my english teachers did teach history but some books just had no relavence. If literature could be alingned with books from the history students are studying, it would be much much more useful. Get rid of poetry, get rid of shakesphere, get rid of dante, get rid of fiction.

2/8/2010 7:29:30 AM

Yes, that does sound crazy. We used math in woodshop. Let's combine those two as well.

2/8/2010 10:11:16 AM

After talking to some colleagues, the freshman "global studies" class is essentially a name change, only. It will just be a World History class with more focus on relevant issues.

The US History thing is still as bad as everyone thinks.


And to address the "why history?" debate-- it's in our country's best interest to have a populace that understands its history and its government. This much is not debatable.

Whether this warrants a social studies class every year is certainly a matter of opinion, though. I agree that high schools should focus more on applicable work skills, but it's not like education is a zero sum game; giving kids an understanding of history doesn't mean we'd have to deny them carpentry skills.

2/8/2010 10:47:11 AM

^^^ thats what my high school did, what we were reading was usually from the time period being taught in history and there were discussions about how it fit into the greater happenings of the time

2/8/2010 10:58:53 AM

Quote :

"Without understanding the context of how you got to where you are, it is nearly impossible to determine where you should go from here."

Well what use is that to most people?

Quote :

"I think you would find very few people here suggesting that the names of all the presidents is useful historical knowledge. However, knowing why we had a second president, why and how said president (and subsequent ones) came to be, and the historical, national and legal significance of that on the other hand is. It essentially defines the how and why of our country."

Fine, substitute whatever question you want in for "who is the second president?", it only makes it that much less likely to be answered correctly and thus only proves my point more that this sort of knowledge is completely useless for pretty much everyone's life.

Quote :

"It essentially defines the how and why of our country."

The useless and the unneccesary.

Quote :

"it's in our country's best interest to have a populace that understands its history and its government"

Why? What use is it?

Quote :

"giving kids an understanding of history doesn't mean we'd have to deny them carpentry skills"

Well one of my points was that by teaching children irrelevant and useless information we foster disinterest in thier other classes. I'd also argue that without extending the amount of time kids spend in school, something would have to be reduced in order for new things to be added. Why not just have supplemental unsubsidized history classes? Then whatever flavor of interpretations of historical events that have been complained about on this very thread could be decided by parents.

2/8/2010 12:54:46 PM

Quote :

"Well what use is that to most people? ... The useless and the unneccesary. ... Why? What use is it?"

Specifically, every one of these people has the right to vote, and therefore the potential to influence the direction of this country. It is therefore best if those people also have an understanding of this country and how we got to this point.

An analogy: A man is on a boat, and sees a candle stuck in a hole on the floor of the boat. He thinks to himself that placing a candle there is a bad idea, if someone were to light it, they might set the boat on fire. So he removes it. Unfortunately, said candle was placed in that hole to stop up a leak, and the boat sinks. Now, it may be that having a candle there was a bad idea, and that using a candle to stop a leak is a bad idea as well. But without the knowledge of the history of that candle, our young man could not have made a fully informed decision about whether or not to remove that candle.

More generally, if we learn from the mistakes of our fathers, we don't have to repeat them.

[Edited on February 8, 2010 at 1:22 PM. Reason : asdf]

2/8/2010 1:22:04 PM

great. so nasa and man-space flight, now this. i guess it goes hand in hand to lose your future and the past all in the same week. nice.

2/8/2010 1:41:49 PM

ya but the candle could also cause the boat to rupture even more when it was a fixable leak to begin with. hindsight is 20/20. Just because something doesn't work once, doesn't mean its doomed forever.

2/8/2010 1:55:05 PM

^ That's irrelevant. The point is, the candle was removed, not to be replaced with a better method of fixing the leak, but merely because having that candle there was a bad idea. Without knowing the history of the candle, he didn't have anything to replace it with to fix the leak, because he didn't know there was a leak in the first place.

2/8/2010 1:59:38 PM

Quote :

"Specifically, every one of these people has the right to vote, and therefore the potential to influence the direction of this country."

I knew you were going to counter with this, that's why I tackled the political part of this earlier. First off your belief that knowledge of history and voting are tied would imply that knowledge of history could introduce a political bias, which I don't think our schools should do, secondly, the news would be a better source to form a voting opinion than history books.

2/8/2010 4:48:33 PM

actually, I would wager the fact that the majority of voting Americans based their entire vote on whatever "news" they are fed is during the runup to the election is actually a problem with our system right now.

2/8/2010 5:33:17 PM

So then history isn't helping then, right?

2/8/2010 5:46:53 PM

tough question to answer. I won't say it is not helping, but I will say unfortunately too many people just don't care about learning it / didn't care when they learned it. That doesn't mean it couldn't help or isn't useful; it is more a reflection of the sad state of the intellect of our voters as as whole that elections are won or lost purely off of tv news station coverage.

Is it the teachers, the lesson plans, the students? I dono. Is it really important for a voter to simply know the fact of who the 2nd president was? No, not directly. But cause and effect and the how and the why throughout history are (or should be) VERY important to voters.

[Edited on February 8, 2010 at 5:55 PM. Reason : ]

2/8/2010 5:50:41 PM

when I was in school we never even got to the Vietnam War. History pretty much ended at WWII

2/8/2010 6:26:32 PM

Quote :

"How does history contribute to that?"

Without historical context all civics information is just "Do it this way because we said so" and current events are almost impossible to interpret. Most of the people key to managing our economy right now are basing their decisions in large part on lessons learned from the Great Depression. Most of those people did not live through the Depression, and none of them would have been deeply aware of the policy decisions being made at the time. They are operating based on history.

Quote :

"I've had several times where I have been financially benefited from being able to do small repairs, I've never had any where my history knowledge has helped."

We could teach kids to cultivate their own penicillin or, hell, to grow all their own food. That could be financially helpful, too.

I've never financially benefited from mathematics beyond simple arithmetic and maybe some very basic geometry. I've never financially benefited from anything I did in gym class, nor from anything learned in an English class other than how to read and write. On the other hand I have benefited substantially from my familiarity with many household pets, though you don't see me demanding that people learn dog breeds.

More to come.

2/8/2010 7:37:09 PM

Quote :

"Is it the teachers, the lesson plans, the students?"

I've stated my opinion on this, it's the subjects they have to teach.

Quote :

"Most of the people key to managing our economy right now are basing their decisions in large part on lessons learned from the Great Depression. Most of those people did not live through the Depression, and none of them would have been deeply aware of the policy decisions being made at the time. They are operating based on history."

And they're really the only ones who are using this kind of stuff. Economics is a subject where I would think history is useful, but I don't really think high school graduates need to know economics.

Quote :

"I've never financially benefited from mathematics beyond simple arithmetic and maybe some very basic geometry."

You use math everyday.

2/8/2010 8:55:42 PM

not trig

2/8/2010 9:15:18 PM

You don't have to take that to graduate.

2/8/2010 9:21:50 PM

Quote :

"And they're really the only ones who are using this kind of stuff. Economics is a subject where I would think history is useful, but I don't really think high school graduates need to know economics."

My point was that we are governed in large part based on things we have experienced before, in history. Yes, the higher-ups are the ones using it to make the actual decisions, but isn't it important that the average man have some understanding of why the decisions are being made? I don't think a basic grasp of government's experiences and motivations should solely be the domain of people who chose to go to college and take history courses.

Quote :

"You use math everyday."

Maybe, maybe I use basic arithmetic every day, but nothing really past the level of what was taught in, say, middle school. Probably the most advanced mathematical procedure I use with any regularity is in price comparisons at the grocery store, and I don't even do that very often.

2/8/2010 10:42:44 PM

Quote :

"My point was that we are governed in large part based on things we have experienced before, in history. Yes, the higher-ups are the ones using it to make the actual decisions, but isn't it important that the average man have some understanding of why the decisions are being made?"

No it isn't important. History is about important people, 99.99999999999999999...% of people are not important, and will never be important, and don't really need to know that kind of stuff, and really don't care, if they do and they want to possibly do something important then they can learn it on their own, they won't even have to get the bias that a teacher would have.

Quote :

"Maybe, maybe I use basic arithmetic every day, but nothing really past the level of what was taught in, say, middle school."

I've yet to have a practical use for historical knowledge I learned in elementary school.

Quote :

"Probably the most advanced mathematical procedure I use with any regularity is in price comparisons at the grocery store, and I don't even do that very often."

You probably use multiplication and division all the time when dealing with time.

2/8/2010 11:08:30 PM

Quote :

"History is about important people, 99.99999999999999999...% of people are not important, and will never be important, and don't really need to know that kind of stuff, and really don't care, if they do and they want to possibly do something important then they can learn it on their own, they won't even have to get the bias that a teacher would have."

So instead of getting their bias from a teacher they'll get it from whatever other source they encounter.

But OK, I get it. You don't think the average person should do things like make informed votes, and I do. And no, the irony of the board's resident commie being such an unapologetic elitist is not lost on me.

Quote :

"You probably use multiplication and division all the time when dealing with time."

I was under the impression that "basic arithmetic" included addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. If I was wrong in that regard, I apologize.

2/9/2010 12:02:14 AM

Quote :

"So instead of getting their bias from a teacher they'll get it from whatever other source they encounter"

But they get to choose the source.

Quote :

"You don't think the average person should do things like make informed votes, and I do."

I've already tackled that one earlier, the news is a better resource.

Quote :

"And no, the irony of the board's resident commie being such an unapologetic elitist is not lost on me."

I don't think it's that elitist.

Quote :

"I was under the impression that "basic arithmetic" included addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. If I was wrong in that regard, I apologize."

I guess I could have said exponentials or modulus division.

2/9/2010 12:15:18 AM

^ahahaha, the news is a better resource for information than......... well, that is just funny.

2/9/2010 12:25:46 AM

C-Span shows what happens now, history books show irrelevant things that don't matter. You'd be better off judging politicians by what they do rather than historical events they talk about or remind you of.

2/9/2010 8:37:36 AM

Quote :

"Excellent. It's a whole new way for NC natives to look dumb when they visit national historic landmarks."

2/9/2010 8:56:19 AM

Simply another gap to fill in when my daughter goes to school. Horay for weekend museum trips! (assuming we haven't closed down all the museums and libraries by then).

And it's hard for me to believe that any rational person would marginalize the importance of The American Revolution, the Constitution, or the Declaration of Independence. But there it is.

If I were a crazy teaparty type I'd say this is the first step to getting future citizens to forget that they are protected by the Bill of Rights.

[Edited on February 9, 2010 at 9:55 AM. Reason : .]

2/9/2010 9:50:11 AM

I say give the kids a choice. They have to pick one, but let them pick either early American or modern American history. Having a good understanding of at least 1/2 of our past is better than no knowledge at all. I say in either class at least the basics of the other are taught for at least a couple weeks as well. I mean we have maybe 300 years of history relevant to our nation to cover. How about we go to pretty much anywhere in Asia and have them tell us how they cover several millenia of history before a kid goes to college?

While I agree some history classes are boring, there shouldn't be a person in the US who doesn't come out of high school at least having read / studied the Constitution.

Also

Quote :

"Gym was pretty useless."

Seriously?? I voluntarily took gym every year in high school and every semester in college. I think it should be mandatory for every student in every school in every grade. We are quickly becoming a nation plagued with preventable diseases linked to obesity and inactivity. Granted some kids are going to give the minimum effort in gym, but exposing kids to different sports and activities is a way to reach some kids who have parents with no motivation to exercise. I love playing basketball today and probably would have much less interest if not for the time I spent playing it nearly every day in high school PE class. Part of gym should include a nutrition class so people understand the consequences of eating a box of Twinkies every day too.

2/9/2010 10:24:51 AM

Gym is not going to make people stop being fat, unless you're somehow going to force them to put in the effort, and control their diet outside of class. A kid with a normal diet should not even need to exercise to be a healthy weight, the problem is nutrition. And, no, a nutrition class is not going to do shit either. Fat parents tend to raise fat kids.

Quote :

"While I agree some history classes are boring, there shouldn't be a person in the US who doesn't come out of high school at least having read / studied the Constitution."

The Constitution is talked about in high school, and most people still don't understand it. How many times has someone on this board, which mainly consists of college students or college graduates, said something like, "The constitution doesn't explicitly say the government can't do it, therefore the government can do it." If people don't have a basic understanding of what the purpose and nature of the document is, there's no point.

[Edited on February 9, 2010 at 10:39 AM. Reason : ]

2/9/2010 10:36:55 AM

The argument here seems to be that because ignorance/obesity still exists, history/gym is pointless.

Surely we all see the flaw in that argument.


Anecdotally, I've taught a ton of kids about the Constitution who I can guarantee would never have learned anything about it otherwise.

2/9/2010 10:54:37 AM

I disagree. Almost everyone in my family is fairly overweight, probably considered obese by the textbook definition. I grew up eating really shitty food and have parents who never exercised. I'm not a professional athlete by any means today, but I eat much better than anyone in my immediate family and work out 4-6 days / week. I attribute a good portion of this behavior to education outside of my family (some high school, some college).

Also, saying high schoolers (or anyone for that matter) don't need exercise is silly. Everyone needs exercise. Even if you are rail thin you can still be in horrible shape. Exercise does many beneficial things for your body besides burning calories (increased cardiovascular health, increased bone density, decreased rate of depression, etc).

2/9/2010 10:56:14 AM

My diet was profoundly affected by a nutrition class I took at NCSU.

I am not have butt issues when I'm older.

2/9/2010 11:01:09 AM

Quote :

" I think it should be mandatory for every student in every school in every grade."

I'm glad you enjoyed gym so much, but it isn't exactly educational and the paltry amount of exercise that takes place during the class isn't going to make a dent in any of our health problems. Aside from which, for everyone person who learned to enjoy sports by being forced to do them in school (you) there is another person who learned to bitterly hate them for the same reason (me). There are parallels to other subjects. Force kids to read a bunch, and some of them will develop a lifelong love of reading and others will never want to pick up a book again.

We mandate gym for kindergarten through 9th grade. That's enough. If you want to voluntarily take more of those classes, then by all means do so.

2/9/2010 1:29:03 PM

I'm not saying force a kid to play a sport, just introduce it to them. If they don't like it, move on. My sophomore year of high school gym class was like a sports sampler. We played a little of everything. I learned I suck at and hate tennis but at the same time found out I like volleyball and wasn't so bad at it. I had never played volleyball in my life.

It's like any subject. Just like you said, if you force crap down kids' throats, they are going to rebel. It's part of being a teenager. If the teacher can introduce subjects to the student in a non-threatening and fun way then they might be more interested.

I had an English teacher that forced us to memorize throngs of poems and monologues; it sucked and I continued to hate English throughout college. I had a History teacher that didn't force us to memorize dates and names but encouraged debate and discussion; I can thank him in part for my enjoyment of following current events and politics. Sounds to me like you got a shitty PE teacher...


Anyway, back to history...

2/9/2010 3:35:43 PM

I'VE GOT THE SOLUTION!

Extend the school day and the school year and then we'll have plenty of time to teach all this shit you fuckers think is the #1 most important thing ever.

We need to get these industrious teenagers out of the "work world" anyway--free me up a slot at the drive-thru and shit.

PROBLEM SOLVED, BITCHES.

2/13/2010 2:16:42 AM

just drop history classes altogether and teach important things like math, science, and English.

2/13/2010 11:51:59 PM

I am not a fan of Rebecca Garland, to say it politely. I had a chance to work with her and deal with some of her decisions when she worked with Alamance County, which is where she was before her current position.

However, this particular policy is a positive solution to a problem we have as teachers. Whether it works or not is a separate issue. No teachers I know are able to get up to modern times with their curriculum each year, because of the huge scope we have to deal with. They are revising the middle school social studies curriculums as well right now. They are moving towards a time based study, so that in each year you cover a certain period of history. As it is now, 6th is the Americas/Europe, 7th is Africa/Asia, and 8th is NC/US.

2/14/2010 12:04:20 AM

I have a block schedule, and I've never had any trouble reaching the end of US History with a week left over for review; neither do any of the other US teachers in my department. It's all about pacing.

If it is a problem, though, then the easiest solution would be to just pull a little of the less important events. There are lots of them to choose from.

2/14/2010 7:26:35 AM

Quote :

"" I think it should be mandatory for every student in every school in every grade.""

2/14/2010 12:06:49 PM

^^ I completely agree.

It's insane to start after Reconstruction.

I teach pre-columbian (not in the SCOS) all the way to 2010...and have no problem.

Do it RITE and you have no problem.

[Edited on February 14, 2010 at 1:39 PM. Reason : s]

2/14/2010 1:38:44 PM