i didn't say that, now, did i? my point is that you don't NEED drugs to change your viewpoint on life

4/8/2010 9:08:42 AM

2.02

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 9:09 AM. Reason : a]

4/8/2010 9:08:51 AM

Quote :

"lol at arguing over "natural" EVERYTHING is natural...we are part of nature, and therefore everything we create is part of nature when a monkey shits in a tree, is his poo unnatural? of course not...but did that poo exist without the monkey to create it? no every chemical compound is made up of elements that exist in nature, therefore they are "natural""

Who are you directing this to? It most certainly isn't me, because I've already pointed this exact thing out.

Quote :

"my point is that you don't NEED drugs to change your viewpoint on life"

Duh, you don't need drugs just to change your viewpoint in life. NOBODY has claimed this. But seeing as you haven't ever had a psychedelic experience, you have no way to make an educated judgment on the changes that a psychedelic experience, in particular, precipitates. As someone who has experienced this, I can tell you that it is profound and incredible. It is something I would NEVER take back, EVER. There are many things I have done in my life that I would undo if possible, but that is not one of them. It wiped the webs and the dew from my withered eye (PRYING OPEN MY THIRD EYE). It opened eyes I didn't ever know I had.

I also love how you call it "drugs", knowing full well that psychedelics are nothing like heroin or cocaine. We aren't saying "drugs" in general, we're talking specifically about psychedelics. There's a reason they're called psychedelic. It's just kind of silly how dense you're being about the whole thing.



YEAH MAN, COCAINE OPENED MY EYES TO REALITY MAN.

UM, NO.......

4/8/2010 9:09:30 AM

^ no one in particular...i just find it amusing when people argue over natural vs unnatural

i get their point, but it's utterly impossible for it to be black and white since the term is subjective

4/8/2010 9:10:36 AM

^^^you didn't specifically say that right then, but you have made it clear in your time on TWW. I totally agree with you that you don't NEED drugs to change your viewpoint on life though.

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 9:11 AM. Reason : ^^^]

4/8/2010 9:10:50 AM

^^ Yeah, I agree. Note that the only people arguing that it's unnatural were on your side of the argument from what I saw.

4/8/2010 9:12:49 AM

Quote :

"you didn't specifically say that right then, but you have made it clear in your time on TWW."

if you've REALLY paid attention, you'd realize that my viewpoint has changed...i'd like to pretend that i'm as awesome as everyone claims to be and that i'm infallible in my opinions, but the truth is that i'm willing to admit that maturity and life experiences have allowed me to see the drugs issue from a different perspective

that said, i have absolutely no use for them...i don't feel like there's anything lacking in my life, nor do i feel that my life NEEDS to change through the use of mind-altering drugs...i'm happy with who i am and my life in general, but i can understand that some people feel that they benefit from artificially (though this, too, is subjective) changing their perceptions

i don't think it's "wrong" (morally or otherwise), i just don't see the value in it...of course, the favorite response to my view is "if you haven't tried it, how do you know?" to which i can respond with a hundred equally stupid scenarios that fit within that same argument

i've never tried pot or any other recreational drugs, and i have no intention of going out of my way to do so...i'd probably try weed if the opportunity presented itself and it were convenient, but i view it the same as trying a new beer (zomg, alcohol is a recreational drug, ur a hypocrite!!!!)

Quote :

"But seeing as you haven't ever had a psychedelic experience, you have no way to make an educated judgment on the changes that a psychedelic experience, in particular, precipitates."

hah, i typed my above response before you edited...big surprise that the "you haven't tried it, so you don't know, man!!!!" response has come up

have you tried [insert anything here]? if not, how do you know it's not the most awesome thing in the world? you should try [insert anything here] before you're allowed to have an opinion on it

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 9:21 AM. Reason : .]

4/8/2010 9:17:08 AM

Quote :

"of course, the favorite response to my view is "if you haven't tried it, how do you know?" to which i can respond with a hundred equally stupid scenarios that fit within that same argument"

Yes, I agree you could compare it to something like skydiving. As in, if someone said they had no need for skydiving and that their life was fine as is and they don't need it, you could respond "Well, you've never tried it, so how do you know you wouldn't enjoy it or benefit from it?"

But I think we all know that an analogy like watching your mother get stabbed to death is absolutely ridiculous. It does not precipitate anything positive unless you're actually someone who enjoys murder. I also like how you call it "equally stupid" when you have no clue what benefits arise from it.

I often compare it to the matrix, because that's EXACTLY what it's like. You find some things out that are incredible and obviously can't be undone. You're simply choosing to take the blue pill, which is fine and you can remain ignorant to it. But, for the love of a non-existent god, stop pretending like you know anything about what it does by calling it stupid. You have no grasp of what happens during the experience and thus, you have no ability to argue that it is a waste of time.

How would you know things you don't know btw? I mean, if you're ignorant to something, of course you can say you don't need it. I don't necessarily disagree that you don't need it, but you have no clue what kind of benefits arise from the experience and as such you can't really say anything about it.


It's like telling a soldier you know what combat is like when you've never been there or telling a gay man you know what he goes through everyday. It is absolutely ridiculous. You don't have any experience with which to judge it and until you do, you need to stop calling it stupid.

4/8/2010 9:21:08 AM

Well, big ups to you sir for keeping an open mind

I admit, I haven't really been paying attention to your views on drugs lately.

4/8/2010 9:21:23 AM

Quote :

"But I think we all know that some ridiculous analogy like watching your mother get stabbed to death is absolutely ridiculous and does NOT fit within the same argument because it does not precipitate anything positive unless you're actually someone who enjoys murder."

i made a completely valid statement (not comparison, mind you) that is very likely true for most people

but since you brought it up...how do you know you don't enjoy murder unless you try it? OBVIOUSLY this is more extreme than trying a drug of any kind (especially since it involves the harming of another living thing), but it fits PERFECTLY within the stupid "how do you know unless..." scenario

i "know" as much about myself as you know about YOURSELF, since it is completely internal and ultimately impossible to compare, so why bother pretending like you know me or what i would enjoy or benefit from? the arrogance is hilarious...it's not unique to drug proponents, though...more of a ubiquitous human flaw

Quote :

"Well, big ups to you sir for keeping an open mind I admit, I haven't really been paying attention to your views on drugs lately."

hah, thanks...like i said, i admit that my views have changed...i'll argue all day long if i feel i'm right in my opinion, but i'm also willing to admit when i was wrong

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 9:28 AM. Reason : .]

4/8/2010 9:25:45 AM

Well, you said WATCH before (Or at least I thought you did), so now you're changing it to committing the act yourself.

Murder causes physical harm to other people, so obviously that is not an acceptable analogy. You know damn well that it's ridiculous.


Also, it is nearly impossible for you to obtain a concept of a psychedelic experience without actually having one. I'd say it's far easier to grasp the concept of murder and whether or not you'd enjoy it. Words cannot explain what it is like to have every perception in your mind altered, to see fractal patters, to experience your very existence from a totally different perspective. It's something so alien to every moment of your existence that you will never understand it until you've experienced it first hand. There really aren't any good analogies, but I'd say it's probably similar to telling a soldier you know what combat is like.

Quote :

"i'll argue all day long if i feel i'm right in my opinion"

You have no valid opinion on whether or not it has value because you don't even know what it does. It is a personal experience, hardly analogous to ending another human being's life for fun.

It is so much easier to grasp murder than altered perception. You can see videos of murder, you can kill animals legally and simulate it to some degree, etc. The reason I compared a psychedelic experience to combat was not because of the aspect where you kill things, but the aspect where you are aware that your life could end at any instant and that it is, in fact, LIKELY. To know that there are a bunch of people whose goal is to put lead through your face and chest until you turn off. The mental experience is something that you probably wont have an actual full understanding of until it happens AND EVEN THAT IS EASIER TO GRASP THAN A PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE. Combat can at least be simulated to a small degree and you can at least understand what basically happens, see videos of it, etc. Of course, nothing will actually put your mind in the state that it will be in during the experience though and this is why I use the analogy.

There are no videos of what it's like to experience LSD or 4-HO-DMT. There is nothing that can actually demonstrate what happens to you. Again, you don't have a valid opinion on what it does and thus you cannot determine its value.

4/8/2010 9:30:10 AM

Quote :

"There really aren't any good analogies, but I'd say it's probably similar to telling a soldier you know what combat is like. "

I would say this is a fairly apt analogy.

4/8/2010 9:35:02 AM

Quote :

"Well, you said WATCH before (Or at least I thought you did), so now you're changing it to committing the act yourself."

well, i still meant watch in my statement above, but i realize after reading that that's not clear...so how do you know you don't enjoy watching murder unless you try it? snuff films exist for a reason, you know...

Quote :

"Murder causes physical harm to other people, so obviously that is not an acceptable analogy. You know damn well that it's ridiculous."

you're missing the point...of COURSE it's ridiculous to equate the personal use of drugs with killing another person, but i never said they were equal...all i said is that both might change your view on life, and unless you have evidence to the contrary, i'm likely correct in this statement

it's stupid to assume that the change will always be positive...people have bad acid trips and it can fuck them up...so your LIMITED experience is completely invalid, unless you're implying that you know exactly what a psychedelic experience would be like for ME?

Quote :

"Also, it is nearly impossible for you to obtain a concept of a psychedelic experience without actually having one. I'd say it's far easier to grasp the concept of murder and whether or not you'd enjoy it. Words cannot explain what it is like to have every perception in your mind altered, to see fractal patters, to experience existence itself from a totally different perspective. It's something so alien to every moment of your existence that you will never understand it until you've experienced it first hand. There really aren't any good analogies, but I'd say it's probably similar to telling a soldier you know what combat is like."

you can SAY whatever you like, but unless you've killed someone (or watched someone be killed), your opinion means exactly nothing because you don't KNOW (which is your whole point)

implying that the ONLY way for someone to have ANY idea what it would be like is for them to actually do a particular thing is arrogant...do you truly believe that some people don't know themselves better than you?

i can't believe that you actually think you are the epitome of self-knowledge and therefore feel qualified to tell others that they "can't" understand what it would be like to be in their own head unless they take drugs to do it, but that's what you're implying

i DO get your point...i can't know EXACTLY what a trip is like without doing it...but how can you say that i'm not qualified to know myself and what i may or may not enjoy?

4/8/2010 9:39:22 AM

Quote :

"i can't know EXACTLY what a trip is like without doing it."

My point is that you can't know ANYTHING about what a trip is like without doing it. Not that you can't know EXACTLY what it is like. You can't know ANYTHING about it. It is so alien to normal existence that there is nothing that can demonstrate it.

You can actually know quite a bit about murder, you can simulate it, you can train for it, etc. You can't do any of that for a psychedelic experience, thus your analogy fails completely. You can kill animals, which is murder and it is getting pretty close to killing another animal called a human. You can watch videos of murder and determine whether or not it appears enjoyable because when you commit murder, you'll be seeing it from an outside perspective just like the camera does. No, it wont fully put you in the mindset, but you at least know what is going to happen and what you're going to see. There is nothing you can do to even get close to simulating or giving understanding of a psychedelic experience without having one. Watching a video of someone in a psychedelic state would not demonstrate their experience in the least.

Also, read my post again because I added some stuff.

Quote :

"It is so much easier to grasp murder than altered perception. You can see videos of murder, you can kill animals legally and simulate it to some degree, etc. The reason I compared a psychedelic experience to combat was not because of the aspect where you kill things, but the aspect where you are aware that your life could end at any instant and that it is, in fact, LIKELY. To know that there are a bunch of people whose goal is to put lead through your face and chest until you turn off. The mental experience is something that you probably wont have an actual full understanding of until it happens AND EVEN THAT IS EASIER TO GRASP THAN A PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE. Combat can at least be simulated to a small degree and you can at least understand what basically happens, see videos of it, etc. Of course, nothing will actually put your mind in the state that it will be in during the experience though and this is why I use the analogy. There are no videos of what it's like to experience LSD or 4-HO-DMT. There is nothing that can actually demonstrate what happens to you. Again, you don't have a valid opinion on what it does and thus you cannot determine its value."

4/8/2010 9:41:47 AM

Quote :

"My point is that you can't know ANYTHING about what a trip is like without doing it."

so you are saying that, without a doubt, it is TOTALLY unlike fever dreams or hallucinations? because i'm betting that you haven't experienced what i have and therefore are unqualified to judge what i have and have not experienced...unless you're implying that you were there, you experienced what i have, and can accurately compare my experiences with your own?

yeah, i didn't think so

what it boils down to is you THINK you know what i have and have not experienced and you THINK you can objectively compare your lack of knowledge in regards to my experiences with your own...it's kind of sad that you think you can know what you can't possibly know, but by all means, keep thinking in absolute terms about things you know nothing about

i get it, though...if i don't do your drug of choice, i am not allowed to have an opinion regarding my PERSONAL preferences

4/8/2010 9:49:18 AM

quagmire is there any thread you don't shit up

4/8/2010 10:02:44 AM

you fucking hippies.

some of us don't NEED a psychedelic experience to enjoy and appreciate what we have and who we are.

4/8/2010 10:06:14 AM

Quote :

"some of us don't NEED a psychedelic experience to enjoy and appreciate what we have and who we are."

of course not. swill your bud light down and shut the fuck up

4/8/2010 10:07:42 AM

LOL

4/8/2010 10:08:07 AM

haha here come the hippy insults because I "just don't get it"

4/8/2010 10:09:00 AM

don't give a fuck if you get it or don't to be honest

4/8/2010 10:09:37 AM

hippies are the ONLY people who use psychedelic drugs

4/8/2010 10:09:54 AM

hippies are the ONLY people who use psychedelic drugs

4/8/2010 10:10:42 AM

^^^you sure are defensive about it for someone who doesn't "give a fuck." sorry if i'm a little bit stronger than you in that I don't need some artificially created experience to define me.

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 10:12 AM. Reason : hippy shit]

4/8/2010 10:11:48 AM

Quote :

"I've had a bad trip on acid, and it fucked up my whole patterns of thought/way of viewing the world for the next 6 months - 1 year "

that wasn't a "bad trip"; that's what acid does. When you are having a rough time in life and you proceed to drink yourself stupid, do you blame it on bad alcohol?

I don't personally agree with the sentiment stated in here that everyone should trip at least once in their life. There are some drugs out there that are far from harmless. While drugs like DMT may just cause you to open the doors of perception and see the world through a different view, anticholingeric drugs like Datura will literally drag you off into oblivion for a couple of days without being able to comprehend anything around you.

4/8/2010 10:11:53 AM

Quote :

"^^^you sure are defensive about it for someone who doesn't "give a fuck." sorry if i'm a little bit stronger than you in that I don't need some artificially created experience to define me."

hmm lets see nope sounds categorically wrong to me how about: sucking a dick you faggot redneck

4/8/2010 10:12:46 AM

^^Datura will also kill you if you aren't careful

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 10:13 AM. Reason : not for me]

4/8/2010 10:13:07 AM

^^I am heterosexual and I can't help that I have fair skin.

4/8/2010 10:14:33 AM

Quote :

"quagmire is there any thread you don't shit up"

pot, meet kettle! don't cry too much that you can't follow

4/8/2010 10:31:33 AM

Saab, I find it interesting that you say that your trip(s) lead you to believe that there is no god when so many people claim that it showed them who God really is. Others claim that they realized god is not an actual being but it's our soul or something that lives in each one of us. Could you share what you saw and how it led you to form your opinions? I'm really interested in this stuff and just want to hear a first hand account. I understand it may be hard to describe.

4/8/2010 11:53:15 AM

so from all i have read here i have responses for a few things.

salvia sucks.
bad acid trips are either from a bad batch, bad surroundings, or a weak mind. i only had one bad trip, it was really bad, filled with fear and anxiety, but it was cause i was dosed and subsequently robbed by guys with guns. that was my last trip, come to think of it...I did LOTS of acid and only had the one bad experience.
shrooms are cool, but taste like ass and the trip isn't really satisfying.
do want to try dmt - if it is anything like playing guitar on acid, I AM IN!

if you're over 25, just man up and become an alcoholic like the rest of us, smoke a joint once in a while, and nostalgia.

oh yea and fuck mescaline. never have, never will try that, still, fuck that.


ITT quagmire02 gets trolled.

4/8/2010 12:07:08 PM

Quote :

"ITT quagmire02 gets trolled."

hardly...but i'm glad your whiny bitch ass is back

4/8/2010 12:12:45 PM

Quote :

"that wasn't a "bad trip"; that's what acid does. When you are having a rough time in life and you proceed to drink yourself stupid, do you blame it on bad alcohol?"

Quote :

"Also, some people are just weak. You're probably weak son. If you fight it, it's going to suck."

every trip before this one (my 7th or 8th, and last) was a good trip
the difference is that in a good trip, the revelations you reach and the change in outlook you acquire are helpful to your life, and in general your life is improved, or at least not fucked up
whereas in a bad trip, your outlook IS fucked up

I've had dynamite trips that permanently enriched my life...it's just a matter of whether the changes (if any) are good, bad or neutral

Quote :

"The set and setting is the absolute most critical aspect to any psychedelic experience. You also have to accept what's happening and let it work its course. In my opinion, essentially all bad trips are the fault of the user, sorry to say. It's most often due to a lack of preparation, a lack of a controlled environment or a poor choice of timing for the trip (Doing it when bad things are on your mind, when injured, after some traumatic event, etc)."

This is a high-quality, very accurate statement. I do think "essentially all bad trips are the fault of the user" is perhaps a little too strong...sometimes shit happens that you can't control, or sometimes things just gradually spiral downward. I will confess, however, that my bad trip happened about two months after my best friend got engaged to my ex; and though I was through feeling sad about it and scarcely thought about it at all during the trip, I hadn't totally found my feet yet.

The trip itself wasn't bad at all...I just felt more or less fucked-up for the next few months.

4/8/2010 12:13:51 PM

Quote :

"i only had one bad trip, it was really bad, filled with fear and anxiety, but it was cause i was dosed and subsequently robbed by guys with guns."

JESUS

4/8/2010 1:03:44 PM

Quote :

"I do think "essentially all bad trips are the fault of the user" is perhaps a little too strong...sometimes shit happens that you can't control, or sometimes things just gradually spiral downward."

That's why I threw in the word essentially and instead of saying "all", said "essentially all". I worded my statement carefully son. Carefully.

4/8/2010 1:06:21 PM

I have never gotten my hands on any pure DMT proper, but I have experimented with 5-MeO-DMT, a close analogue. Free based it in a friend's room in tucker hall my freshman year, and before I could even lean all the way back in my chair I had shot up and out of the room and into a space that can only be described as extra-dimensional.

I could taste sounds and hear smells, and other than that I really have no idea how to describe the experience. In real time the peak only lasted 3-4 minutes but it seemed to me much longer and that I could remain there as long as I pleased. Time was not one of the dimensions I was existing in, so it wasn't a concern.

It wasn't a transcendental emotional experience like that of other, more readily available psychoactives, but it was definitely fucking awesome. I would love to try DMT. And AMT, based on the recommendation of a friend ITT.


And as far as the discussion I've skimmed over in here, I'll be the first one to tell you that I get 100% fulfillment out of enjoying the wonders of daily life in sobriety. But until you've tried psychedelics, I really have no way of explaining to you the palpable benefits of exploring your own mind. My mental journeys, both solitary and with friends, really have changed my life in some small way, absolutely for the better. I can't say that without reservation about pot or alcohol.

4/8/2010 2:42:58 PM

Quote :

"fuck mescaline."

4/8/2010 2:48:16 PM

^ Well, it's not something that you just find on the illicit market around here, so unless you actually got it yourself from a cactus or you know a seriously trustworthy individual, you probably got a research chemical.

Mescaline has a distinct look to it as well.

This is rather pure mescaline:




This is crudely extracted mescaline:




Regardless, it takes a lot of trouble to obtain and most people that go through this kind of trouble aren't selling it. So, again, unless you really know somebody, you probably haven't had mescaline.

4/8/2010 2:53:37 PM

okay, guys, i'm going to put in an order

who wants some and how much?

4/8/2010 2:54:15 PM

Quote :

"my best friend got engaged to my ex"

that fucking sucks.

4/8/2010 2:55:13 PM

for the record, i don't judge people on things they choose to do on their own, including drugs, alcohol, tobacco, whatever, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of other people.

The attitude that I have a problem with is the small minority of psychedelic drug users that think everyone needs to experience them. If a person does not choose to experience them, it is his or her decision, and that should be respected.

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 2:59 PM. Reason : ]

4/8/2010 2:59:25 PM

It is much harder for me to let go into a psychedelic experience than deep sedation or the euphoria of stimulants. Every time I take something I fight it for at least the first few minutes after onset. I found some old salvia that had been sealed up well and I thought it was unpleasant for the duration of its effects.


I have smoked some datura leaves and flowers before. the leaves are fairly mild and relatively pleasant- also relatively safe to try, i guess. flowers are several times more potent, though not nearly as potent as the seeds.

4/8/2010 3:05:05 PM

^^while i agree with that most of the time, i still think (almost) everyone should eat mushrooms once. i don't care if you never touch alcohol, pot, acid, coke, et al. but mushrooms are mild enough for the layman and are deeply enlightening.

the (almost) clause above refers to those of diminished or precarious mental states, such as retards, schizophrenics and liberals

[Edited on April 8, 2010 at 3:11 PM. Reason : ^ that's because salvia sucks.]

4/8/2010 3:10:29 PM

well then i want everyone to have to own a gun

4/8/2010 3:19:59 PM

nobody should have to take drugs.

4/8/2010 3:22:05 PM

Quote :

"liberals"

who the fuck wants to trip with republicans

4/8/2010 3:35:11 PM

I didn't think Republicans tripped at all.

4/8/2010 3:38:24 PM

this one does!

4/8/2010 3:38:55 PM

i'll do drugs with republicans because they seem to prefer the eastern NC bbq, which is far superior to that western bullshit. i usually don't tip, but i do when i'm high.

4/8/2010 3:39:39 PM

i said liberal, not democrat. a republican is not the opposite of a liberal. anyone who champions a large, pervasive/invasive government doesn't need any more drugs.

4/8/2010 3:40:35 PM