The big problem is that all the kids now days think they are too good to work with their hands. I have seen kids on the college track that would be far more successful and happy cutting hair or something. Sadly the problem with learning a trade is that you have to fight for business with the illegals that don't pay taxes, and it's impossible to compete with that as far as price.

4/9/2010 3:26:44 PM

Quote :

"big picture is this shit starts at home, which means most of these kids are SOL"

Q

F

T

/thread

4/9/2010 4:20:24 PM

^^ Working a trade is one thing. Committing to it when you're a teenager is very different. Be honest, would it be your first choice? How about when you were 15? You can learn to be a plumber when you're 20. It's tougher to get into a good engineering program when you're diploma is from the average Plumber High. Not to mention all of the other things that come from going to vocational schools which may limit your ability to be successful at a standard 4yr college.

Quote :

"if they would get out and work some different jobs and figure out what they do and do not like (i.e. mature), they might be able to decide."

Do you really think you were exposed to so much more than the average person? I mean, you said farming and mechanical stuff.. 2 things!

Most people have jobs in high school and are exposed to the jobs of their family members. I'm glad that from that very minimum exposure, you were able to find something that you still love to this day. But let's face it, you're talking about 2 things out of how many possibilities? Personally, I think you got lucky. Or if nothing else, are an outlier in some other way.

There are so many careers that you're just not going to be exposed to, maybe not even know exist, before you're a certain age.

And I'm willing to bet that I can take 100 people who love messing around in a garage/shop and not all of them are going to like performing the duties of many engineering jobs.

Again though, really glad that you love what you do and that you found it at search an early age.

Quote :

""big picture is this shit starts at home, which means most of these kids are SOL""

I definitely agree with that. But it's a situation we have to deal with, like it or not. These students will stay alive and breathing, they will get older, we may have some control over whether they're complete dumb asses or able to contribute to society in some meaningful way.

We can say "oh, it starts at home... so they're fucked" --- but that's just giving in, and the consequence is not simply that "they're SOL", it's that we're SOL. I'd rather find a way to prevent that as much as possible.

4/9/2010 4:42:24 PM

Quote :

"the entire system needs an overhaul... today's school culture just isn't going to cut it"

And that, ladies and gents, is the core issue. Its also not just a school culture issue, but a parenting culture issue. Combination is poor and leaves little to be desired for students. Not a quick or easy fix, even if the money pit was bottomless.

I'd really like to see lines-items (REALLY detailed line items, not just rolled up stuff) of what got increased this year in terms of state budget vs. what got cut. THAT would be an interesting comparison.

4/9/2010 5:20:23 PM

I know everybody wants to talk about "school culture" and "parent culture."

But this thread is about budget cuts, and I don't think people know how ridiculous it has gotten.

Schools don't even have enough cheap paperbacks to go around when they're working on fiction. So when they "study" a novel, that means they come into class and sit there and read as much as they can in an hour before having to turn the book back in for the next class. Obviously, there isn't enough class time for them to actually finish entire novels so often they only read excerpts and then watch a movie of it or they read only the first half of each chapter or sometimes they just stop halfway through and move on to the next thing on the pacing guide...

And I can actually see how that's not that big of a deal.

But if you remember settling into bed to devour a good book and come in the next week to discuss it with your teacher and your peers and do fun projects about it...that doesn't happen anymore. And it's not cause of "school culture" or "parent culture." It's because schools can't even afford to send a kid home with a paperback novel.

4/9/2010 6:56:21 PM

I'm just depressed by the state of education in general and frightened to see where it's going.

Someone mentioned merit based pay for teachers, which is fine as long as you can find a better merit system than test scores. When you teach a kid whose parents kick them out of the house the night before their EOC, or at the other end a kid who refuses to come to your class all semester and shows up for the test, how is it your fault when they get a 1? Also, a lot of the merit systems states are looking at (Florida springs to mind) disregard advanced degrees and National Board certification, which is total bullshit.

My class of 28 high school juniors is my favorite one, though. Large class sizes can work, to an extent, if they're well-planned. My class of 26 sophomores last semester made me near suicidal.

4/9/2010 6:57:55 PM

One of the worst horror stories I've heard (from the teacher it happened to): after being hired in her first year as a Spanish teacher, she discovered she was the only Spanish teacher in the entire school and would be teaching all the levels (1-AP). The materials that the school had to offer? A class set of ancient Spanish 2 books.

4/9/2010 7:17:26 PM

Quote :

"You can learn to be a plumber when you're 20. It's tougher to get into a good engineering program when you're diploma is from the average Plumber High."

By high school you can tell what kids are smart enough or care enough in order to be in a "college" track program.

For the rest who are not smart enough, don't care enough, or whose parents don't push enough why bother??

You can play stupid all you want but you are wasting tax-payers money and students time by living in some idealistic land
where everyone is on the "college track" plan like today's mainstream public schools push.

The system in Europe can not be that flawed since they blow away our schools in nearly every category.

duro982

Let me guess you also support NCLB!!

4/9/2010 7:30:57 PM

HUR, I don't think duro982 it talking about what they do in Germany and the like.

He's talking about the way we implement vocational ed in the US: an extremely watered down version of the basics (reading/writing/math) plus a half day of dicking around and trying to make bongs in shop or leaving early to work a minimum wage job so you can have more cash to soup up your car and buy weed.

If we were to put more kids in voc ed, we'd need to overhaul the program entirely: rigorous coursework in reading/writing/math plus intensive preparation for a trade that includes an apprenticeship that leads directly into a job.

Furthermore, you need to understand that, in Europe, once a person picks and succeeds in a trade (mechanic, electrician, mason, etc...), that's his area of expertise and the government respects that. If there is decline in demand for those jobs, they are fully supported by the government in their unemployment or in their transition to another career.

Also, countries with successful trade school systems (like Germany) rely heavily on the exploitation of undocumented workers to fill unskilled labor positions. Those undocumented workers in Germany will eventually gain rights, representation, and social services, and they'll "burden" the system in the same way you believe our native unskilled workers do now.


I support a trade school system--one that prepares them for a job and actually links them up with employment after high school. Of course, they should also be educated in the basic skills necessary for them to succeed at a prep school for a university if they change their minds and want to go to college later in life.

[Edited on April 9, 2010 at 7:54 PM. Reason : ]

4/9/2010 7:53:03 PM

Quote :

"And it's not cause of "school culture" or "parent culture." It's because schools can't even afford to send a kid home with a paperback novel."

I paid for every single paperback in middle/high school when I was in Charlotte-Mecklenburg schools. know this is just an example, but, it brings us back to the budget issue, which in turn brings us back to the culture issue. My point, budget is largely spent on the wrong things due to cultural demands.

Several years ago, did some research and spoke in front of the Charlotte-Mecklenburg school board during a major proposed set of changes they were making. Give me some time and let me dig up some more concrete examples/numbers this weekend and I"ll elaborate my points a bit further. (Side note: Where's the "I hate working 12+ hours a day thread"?)

[Edited on April 9, 2010 at 8:17 PM. Reason : .]

4/9/2010 8:16:13 PM

Quote :

"My point, budget is largely spent on the wrong things due to cultural demands."

I know you want time to look over your notes, but if you have a moment now, could you expand a bit on the "cultural demands?"



Because I never paid for a paperback in school and now students in the same school district don't have novels to take home. The only changes in cultural demands I can think of are increased spending on ESL education (because more students who speak English as a second language have moved here). But more upper middle class families with big salaries (tax money) have moved here as well.

And Smath74 is right that we shell out more now to accommodate individual students--in some instances to avoid getting sued. But if we're going to spend more money on that (and it appears that we are), then obviously we need to raise property taxes and increase the budget, not just bitch about how some kids are getting too much of the resources.

And it's weird. While some kids get all the accommodations/extra help in the world, there are still other kids with legitimate disabilities that are totally underserved and have horrible experiences in school.

[Edited on April 9, 2010 at 8:51 PM. Reason : sss]

4/9/2010 8:24:55 PM

Quote :

"It's anecdotal, but vocational high schools are bullshit imo. You get out, and you're still in a situation where you're 18. Real, full-time jobs are tough to come by for 18yr olds, period. And you're asking teenagers to decide on a career path. Most college students don't know for certain what specific career path they want to pursue. Asking that of a teenager is borderline retarded."

This is what every 14-year old child in Japan has to do and it works out alright for them.

4/9/2010 8:31:48 PM

^^ i'm curious about that too.

^ Americans are not Japanese. Very different culture. And I don't know enough about Japan to really know how "well" it "works out." I don't know what sort of problems Japanese citizens think their school systems have. I don't know much about their school systems in general. I do know Americans though, and I'm familiar with American school systems. I don't see it working with the current system. I'm not saying it's impossible with a different system, set of courses, etc. But I just don't see it as a reasonable expectation at this time.

Also, there are Americans who decide what they want to do when they're 13 and stick it out. there are also really smart 20 yr olds that don't know what they want to do - and there's nothing wrong with that imo. And that's just in the U.S. So, big deal that kids in Japan are forced to choose when they're 14. I have no clue if they're even happy about having to decide that or how many regret their choice, etc.

Quote :

"You can play stupid all you want but you are wasting tax-payers money and students time by living in some idealistic land where everyone is on the "college track" plan like today's mainstream public schools push."

If you're talking to me - Read my post again. I specifically stated that there are various levels of courses (whether you're talking ability grouping or tracking - and there is a difference) at most schools, and that students don't have to be on a college track or level if they don't want to be.

Schools that use ability grouping effectively pretty much take care of this on their own. You don't get students who can't hack it in the college prep and honors classes. And you don't get students who should be in cp and honors classes in the lower level courses.

Quote :

"Let me guess you also support NCLB!!"

What led you to that conclusion?


BridgetSPK is right. I'm not talking about European systems. I'm talking about the vocational schools in the US, particularly those which I'm familiar. They're exactly as she described. Sub-par core classes, then spend half the day in shop. That's OK if the shop program is efficient. But in my experience, they are not. And preferably, the core classes would be better.

So the votech kids are getting a shitty education, and not enough skill to really compensate for that. The problem is that the votech system in the US is not good.

[Edited on April 9, 2010 at 8:42 PM. Reason : .]

4/9/2010 8:38:49 PM

Quote :

"Americans are not Japanese. Very different culture. And I don't know enough about Japan to really know how "well" it "works out.""

From what I understand, they don’t “coddle” their unmotivated students. If a student wants to drop out, they don’t do much to prevent it. They know these students will typically become the necessary “under class” of workers (janitors, etc.).

They don’t have the legacy of Jim Crow or massive undocumented workers to fill these roles.

4/9/2010 9:31:08 PM

Quote :

"They don’t have the legacy of Jim Crow or massive undocumented workers to fill these roles."

you said a mouthful right there man

4/9/2010 10:04:31 PM

When our kids fail, we can still import Europeans for the jobs of the Creative Class.

4/9/2010 10:14:58 PM

Quote :

"From what I understand, they don’t “coddle” their unmotivated students. If a student wants to drop out, they don’t do much to prevent it. They know these students will typically become the necessary “under class” of workers (janitors, etc.)."

That comment doesn't seem to take some very important information into consideration. They're allowed to not attend high school, OK. How many actually choose to not attend? From what I've found, and nothing from a source I would cite in a paper, between 96-100% (highest in the cities) of japanese students attend high school even though it's not required. The drop out rate is stated to be around 2% from various sources.

So yeah, they allow students to drop out. But, students aren't dropping out. The drop out rate in the U.S. is considerably higher (close to 9% i think?). So unless you're suggesting that reverse psychology is the ticket... I'm not sure I see why you're referencing the Japanese drop-out policy.



Did you have other examples of the "coddling" going on aside from the fact that states in the U.S. having been raising the age for students to drop out?

Quote :

"They don’t have the legacy of Jim Crow or massive undocumented workers to fill these roles."

What is the pertinence of that? I don't mean to say there aren't impacts, but I'd like to have a better idea of what you mean, instead of incorrectly assuming too much.

- one thing that it really points out, is that (like I said) Japanese culture is not American culture. We have specific events in our history that they do not. It's very difficult to compare such different cultures to each other in respect to how well a particular system works for one vs the other. You can't just assume that something which works there will work here.


In reading some about the Japanese education system, there are A LOT of differences. You're going to have a very tough time pinning it down to just one thing. And even then, you have to look at how each of those things work with their culture and various sub-cultures.

It's extremely more complex than - Japan doesn't require high school attendance and things work well there, we should do that here. Germany has X schools and it works well there, we should do that here.

4/10/2010 6:07:01 PM

Warning ... WORDS ahead.


http://www.governor.state.nc.us/budget.aspx

Yeah, I thought this was going to happen. 7000 lines on a spreadsheet all rolled up with no ability to drill-down into specifics of each line item.

Recommended costs in 2010, showing highest costs first.

Quote :

" CLASSROOM TEACHERS -- 2,984,581,313 EXCEPTIONAL CHILDREN -- 699,290,857 TEACHER ASSISTANTS -- 505,965,687 SA-ASSOC DEGREE PROGRAMS -- 472,545,789 TRANSPORTATION -- 410,320,113 NONINSTRUC SUPPORT PERS -- 406,926,298 CN-MEAL SERVICE -- 376,472,050 MEDICAL INSURANCE -- 365,849,257 INSTRUCTIONL SUPPORT PER -- 360,981,712 SA-INST. & ACAD.SUPPORT -- 357,458,983 STATE RETIREMENT -- 317,815,506 SOCIAL SECURITY -- 298,684,105 VOC ED TEACHERS -- 293,801,220 SCHOOL BUILDING ADMIN -- 265,003,158 AT RISK STUD SVC/ALT SCH -- 227,971,150 "

Ok, the numbers alone aren't going to help us without putting them in perspective / context. Let's try reading through the PDF report itself, some 350+ pages. pg. 1 states with mission and goals

Quote :

"Mission The guiding mission of the North Carolina State Board of Education (SBE) is that every public school student will graduate from high school, globally competitive for work and postsecondary education and prepared for life in the 21st century. Goals North Carolina public schools will produce globally competitive students. North Carolina public schools will be led by 21st century professionals. North Carolina public school students will be healthy and responsible. Leadership will guide innovation in North Carolina public schools. North Carolina public schools will be governed and supported by 21st century systems."

Those are some pretty fluff / generic goals. There might be more information about how to measure such goals and progress later in the report. Ok, let's move on. pg. 3 starts us off with explanations behind each of the cuts recommended.

- To Smath74's note, I can't find in here where it says 1.3M is being reduced. They are making a one-time halt of $38M for new textbooks in 2010, but new textbooks will be allowed in 2011
- To Smath74's note, again, I can't find the $700k, however, $4M is being reduced and there are alternative sources of federal funding that should (should...) fill in the gap here.
- To Smath74's note, "teaching jobs" ... item #16 on the report shows estimated reduction of 300 clerical and custodial positions.
*pg. 8 shows a total $245M in permanent cuts, $66M in one-time cuts.


Now, let's see where increases are being made.
- Investigate replacing EOG/EOC tests with nationally standardized ones - $4.7M
- Improve struggling schools via 23 new hired positions and services - $3.0M
- Leadership academy for superintendents - $200k
- Virtual Public School - $2M
- Decrease high school dropout rate - $6.7M
- Learn and Earn Early College High Schools - $3.6M

Not too many to speak of. Ok, the remainder of the report does explain the line items. Posting now and will see if can find something more interesting...

4/11/2010 9:14:55 AM

You want to potentially turn a conversation to go wrong, try talking about:
- Religion
- Politics
- Kids / Parenting
- Money
- Other deeply held cultural beliefs that may not fall into one of those categories.

This circles back to parenting cultural issue (which influence in large part how budget is allocated):
- The amounts and types of reinforcement given
- Everybody should have an equal opportunity to succeed, no matter what their background is
- Do NOT do anything which violates one of the five items above

Anyways, to highlight some things from the budget review that jumped out at me.

Quote :

" pg. 32 Distribute and monitor state and federal funding to North Carolina's public schools through allotment formulas, audits, and reports to provide funding and ensure compliance with state and federal laws. $2,021,743 31.750 Full-Time equivalents "

--> I have a problem with this, this shows inefficiency with processes / too much paperwork.

Quote :

"pg. 18 Develop preschool policy and provide technical assistance, monitoring, and professional development to build local capacity for pre-kindergarten program planning, administration, implementation, expansion, and sustainability. $135,436,558 "

--> This seems awfully high.

Quote :

" pg. 19 Provide leadership and management through the office of Associate Superintendent/CIO to oversee the services and operations of the E-Rate Project, Service Delivery/Enterprise Program Management Office (EPMO) Division, NC WISE, Instructional Technology Division, and Operations Division. $6,050,232 3.000 Full-Time equivalents "

--> 3 people and $6M allocated for "leadership and management" ... what exactly is this used for?

Quote :

" pg. 20 Fund 13510-1600 Curriculum/Instruction and Accountability — Base Budget 47,909,270 "

--> Covers exception children, gifted students, and normal students. Accountability to a number of different sources (No Child Left Behind being one) that meeting criteria, primarily via test scores. $48M for this???!!!

I'm going to omitting reviewing the federal funding on pg. 21. That has a LOT of strings attached which I imagines ties hands for what they could do with such funding (other than as they have already done, leave holes in the state allocated portion for federal to fill in).

Quote :

" pg. 23 Provide state funding for innovative, 21st century learning experiences through Charter Schools and Learn and Earn Early College High Schools by offering students the opportunity to participate in instructional programs that will boost student performance as well as graduation rates. Learn and Earn students earn associate's degrees or two years of transferable college credit while still in high school. $204,257,528 "

--> I'd really like to see results of this, how many students are participating, what the goals are, etc. $204M seems like a lot to be spending on something that should normally be covered via community colleges.

Quote :

"Implement application process and award funds to programs engaged in prevention of child abuse and neglect. $566,052 "

--> Why are public school even paying for this? Is there a federal or state requirement to have it?

The remainder of the report goes into breakdowns of universities and other publicly funded UNC schools. We'll stop here. Even at this level, it is VERY difficult to tell what exactly happens to money after it is allocated. Yes I am calling this into scrutiny ... I've seen plenty of waste in both public schools and UNC school system. Unfortunately the "use it this year on something not really needed or lose it next year when it is needed" mentality doesn't help.

Ok, things I don't understand I want somebody to explain to me (which contribute in large part to my reference of school culture).
- Are dropout rates really a problem? Is it truly a requirement that we spend as much money as we do to push to have more finish high school? (Societal benefits gain vs. cost is what I'm after here).
- Are there no other means of measuring results other than via test scores? (Test scores are better than nothing).
- Do we have apples-to-apples studies showing U.S. education is in fact at risk relative to other countries in the world? (Comparing US to China is NOT apples to apples, btw).
- What are other states doing that have worked successfully?
- What are other countries doing that have worked successfully? How do those countries measure success?

4/11/2010 10:19:14 AM

Teacher quality is far and away the most important thing any school can improve to improve performance. Budget cuts mean lower pay, meaning that you will just get teachers of even lower quality (the low-paid positions already attract less-talented people).

4/11/2010 10:46:45 AM

My life as a teacher: first period class is limited to 26 students for safety sake...I have 30 students - 5 can BARELY read. One of those 5 has a one on one due to his autism and diabetes. Another student has a one on one because she is wheelchair bound and has cerebral palsy and cannot write, draw, feed herself. I travel to three different classrooms and teach a "living skills" course.

A good teacher can teach the kid who comes to school wearing a lampshade...but we are fighting an uphill battle.

Thankfully, I am not in the first wave of cuts this year but I was last year. They cut two and a half and I was next.

Merit based pay is bullshit unless the teachers are allowed to make the test. I've had 0% passing on this one question for this one objective because I have no idea what they are asking them about. Out of our test bank, I've found 20-30 invalid questions. All that aside, I have outstanding test scores.

4/11/2010 8:57:16 PM

Quote :

" That comment doesn't seem to take some very important information into consideration. They're allowed to not attend high school, OK. How many actually choose to not attend? From what I've found, and nothing from a source I would cite in a paper, between 96-100% (highest in the cities) of japanese students attend high school even though it's not required. The drop out rate is stated to be around 2% from various sources. "

That means absolutely nothing.

Basically, if you can write your name of a piece of paper, you can get into a high school somewhere in Japan. I've had students that can't write the English alphabet or much Japanese, even though technically they're supposed to be able to do this to get into high school, and they're still here. Sending your kid to high school is basically a given in Japan, just like it is in America. Sure it's not required, but that doesn't mean much.

Once you get into high school, it's pretty much impossible to fail. You could not come to school a majority of the school year and still graduate. So the dropout rate might be 2%, but that's basically a student that doesn't even bother showing up for graduation.

Quote :

"From what I understand, they don’t “coddle” their unmotivated students. If a student wants to drop out, they don’t do much to prevent it. They know these students will typically become the necessary “under class” of workers (janitors, etc.)."

Yep, this is basically how it works. But rather than having a student drop out, they let them move through the system even if they don't do the work. Once they're done they go and become truck drivers or 7-Eleven cashiers.

4/11/2010 10:37:14 PM

-the world needs ditch diggers too.
-most of the problems at schools, not all, but most can be traced back to lackluster parenting -that the school system should not/ doesn't have the $$$ to reverse the problems.
-the government can be blamed for the rest of the issues...(Lottery? Where are those gazzillion dollars going?)
-The answers are obvious...but somehow they get overlooked...so who is finally going to take care of it?
-not everyone will or needs go to college, and we need to realize that as well.

4/12/2010 12:36:14 AM

Quote :

"That means absolutely nothing."

Did you read the discourse that went along with that comment? I think you may have missed the point of what I posted.

My point was - Who cares if they can drop out whenever they want if they're not actually dropping out. - Nothing more, nothing less.

moron suggested that Japanese schools allow their students to drop out and become the "under-class." - because they understand it's necessary to have that class of workers. And he suggests that this is better than our system of requiring students to stay in school to a certain age (which varies by state).

I just said that the fact that they allow students to drop out means nothing in and of itself. And that there's other info. to consider. The info. I gave supported that - it was some of that additional info. which should be considered. What you said is even more of that info. that should be considered AND it supports my point even more.

If they're just passing kids along, there's no need for them to drop out... so who cares if they can drop out whenever they want? The fact that the policy exists is meaningless. Japanese students aren't dropping out - the reason they're not dropping out doesn't matter. Well, except for in regard to moron's comment; your first hand experience suggests they are, in fact, being "coddled!"

I'm not sure you can "coddle" someone anymore than by passing a student who can't write. "We know you're dumb as shit, but we're going to give you a diploma anyhow!"

4/12/2010 12:51:21 AM

Quote :

"Thank goodness for the education lottery."

Quote :

"Let's see, teachers and textbooks get the axe while administrators and bureaucrats are much safer. Sounds par for the course."

Sounds like a great argument in favor of privatizing the education system, either through charters or vouchers. Private schools employ far fewer administrators and beureaucrats to do the same teaching, six figure salaries that could be turned into more teachers and smaller class sizes for all.

4/12/2010 3:57:16 AM

In before conspiracy theories of sabotaging the school systems in order to push private schools owned by the saboteurs.

4/12/2010 9:53:09 AM

^ Naw, that's WCPSS's hat trick, not NC's

4/12/2010 8:25:00 PM

Quote :

"Sounds like a great argument in favor of privatizing the education system, either through charters or vouchers. Private schools employ far fewer administrators and beureaucrats to do the same teaching, six figure salaries that could be turned into more teachers and smaller class sizes for all."

not only that, but private schools usually have no problem getting rid of problem children.

4/12/2010 9:17:25 PM

Vouchers, is the answer.

And you need to cut some medicaid services to help shore up the budget. However, it appears states are going to be forced to pay for an even larger number AND without limits on payments. Unreal.

4/12/2010 9:30:39 PM

Education already gets too much of the budget. Get back to the basics. I hate to sound like this but I'm tired of reading about a laptop for every child and teaching assistants in every classroom and then a lot of bitching and moaning about the budget.

A class size of 35 isn't bad and WTF difference does it make if you're in a trailer or regular classroom? I've heard this a lot but it's never made any sense. Are teaching abilities reduced by trailers?

4/13/2010 9:10:01 AM

Laptops for every student? I barely have a working computer for myself.

I respect your opinion, but class size is most definitely an issue while teaching. perhaps you are thinking of the days when teachers actually were teachers... these days many of us spend more time dealing with discipline than content. When you have 35 students in a science classroom, safety is a concern, especially when labs are involved. My professional organizations recommend 25 students maximum for science. (I teach middle school, so the students are still very immature.)

And classroom vs trailer... Students cannot be monitored both in the trailer and outside on the path easily. I teach science, and have no running water, no safety equipment, and the classroom barely fits the science tables that I have. (I only have enough tables to sit 28 students.)

I'm not trying to make excuses, just point out valid concerns.

4/13/2010 11:02:54 AM

^^ are you trolling?

4/13/2010 11:12:19 AM

Quote :

"are you trolling?"

No. Not in the Lounge.

What's the problem with trailers?
Why is a class size of 35 a problem when there's a teacher and a teacher's aid?

Honest questions.

Quote :

"I respect your opinion, but class size is most definitely an issue while teaching. perhaps you are thinking of the days when teachers actually were teachers... these days many of us spend more time dealing with discipline than content. When you have 35 students in a science classroom, safety is a concern, especially when labs are involved. My professional organizations recommend 25 students maximum for science. (I teach middle school, so the students are still very immature.) And classroom vs trailer... Students cannot be monitored both in the trailer and outside on the path easily. I teach science, and have no running water, no safety equipment, and the classroom barely fits the science tables that I have. (I only have enough tables to sit 28 students.) "

No argument here. A few years ago I volunteered to tutor on a Saturday to student who were at risk of not passing the EOG tests. I was supposed to have 3 or 4 but had 13 and they didn't listen, didn't try, just wanted to serve their time in a Saturday tutor session and get out.

I wouldn't try any experiments with middle schoolers anyway. It's completely superfluous.


[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 11:42 AM. Reason : $$$$$$]

4/13/2010 11:36:17 AM

Quote :

"Why is a class size of 35 a problem when there's a teacher and a teacher's aid?"

only k-2 have teachers aids i think.

4/13/2010 2:57:12 PM

There are light years of difference between a class of 35, a class of 30, and a class of 25.


Also, I was silent when they took our copier's staples, but now they've stopped buying scantron cards. THIS WILL NOT STAND.

4/13/2010 5:53:24 PM

Quote :

"My life as a teacher: first period class is limited to 26 students for safety sake...I have 30 students - 5 can BARELY read. One of those 5 has a one on one due to his autism and diabetes. Another student has a one on one because she is wheelchair bound and has cerebral palsy and cannot write, draw, feed herself. I travel to three different classrooms and teach a "living skills" course. A good teacher can teach the kid who comes to school wearing a lampshade...but we are fighting an uphill battle. Thankfully, I am not in the first wave of cuts this year but I was last year. They cut two and a half and I was next. Merit based pay is bullshit unless the teachers are allowed to make the test. I've had 0% passing on this one question for this one objective because I have no idea what they are asking them about. Out of our test bank, I've found 20-30 invalid questions. All that aside, I have outstanding test scores"

i dont know if you are whining about the fact that kids may have special needs...i hope not

but youre argument isnt clear, but to me thats the most obvious assumption

i think inhuman teachers are a big problem

Quote :

"By high school you can tell what kids are smart enough or care enough in order to be in a "college" track program. For the rest who are not smart enough, don't care enough, or whose parents don't push enough why bother?? You can play stupid all you want but you are wasting tax-payers money and students time by living in some idealistic land where everyone is on the "college track" plan like today's mainstream public schools push. The system in Europe can not be that flawed since they blow away our schools in nearly every category."

i agree, but i dont think we should not give a crap about students not on a college track. what if they legitimately have no desire to proceed to college? Do they not deserve to be educated? there are good reasons to not want to bother with college, i dont think all these students should be thrown under the "slacker" bus

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 6:01 PM. Reason : ]

4/13/2010 5:56:50 PM

Merit-based pay is awesome. Bring it on.

4/13/2010 6:01:54 PM

Quote :

"Why is a class size of 35 a problem when there's a teacher and a teacher's aid? "

I've been in high school classes that were 12 students and I've been in ones that were ~50 students (intentionally that large), and everything in between (normal subjects, Civics for the 12 students English/History for the 50 student) the difference in quality of education is absolutely vast. Of all the things you could spend money on in a school, getting class sizes to ~15-17 students per class would probably get you the most bang for your buck.

4/13/2010 7:40:08 PM

Quote :

"Merit-based pay is awesome. Bring it on."

You break the unions/tenure and go to vouchers and then you basically just have a market based merit-based pay. If you are good, you will get paid more. If you are terrible, you will get fired. Which is the way it should be. I can understand the theory, since you just cant fire teachers anymore, but I dont think these kinda of mandates work.

They are trying this merit-based crap for our medicare reimbursments too. Which will basically drive people away from poorer areas. But it sounds good to voters I guess.

4/13/2010 8:44:43 PM

Quote :

"i dont know if you are whining about the fact that kids may have special needs...i hope not but youre argument isnt clear, but to me thats the most obvious assumption i think inhuman teachers are a big problem"

First off, I wasn't arguing any point - I stated "My life as a teacher" and stated my experiences.

Second, how is it whining when I say that some classes are so jam packed full of "special needs" kids that it is difficult for ONE person to meet all their needs? Every kid has SPECIAL NEEDS. Smart kids need to feel motivated, abused kids need to feel loved, and the slow kids need one on one attention. Some days teachers are teachers...and then they are therapist, stand in parents, cheerleaders, track stars, and disciplinarians.

Lastly...Inhuman teachers? What do you mean? Inhumane?

4/13/2010 11:11:39 PM

ehhhh inhuman can technically mean lacking kindness, mercy, etc. although I think inhumane is more commonly used

4/13/2010 11:16:57 PM

Inhumane teachers are a huge problem. It's very enticing to see it as a job to have to get summer/holiday vacations but in reality, the people who are in it just for that get out quickly because the rest of the job can be very grueling for low pay. It's sad for me to hear other teachers talk about their jobs and how much they hate them when there are good teachers waiting in the wings.

4/13/2010 11:20:26 PM

WCPSS is going to be entering a hiring freeze for the upcoming year, which is likely going to result in even larger class sizes and tighter budgets for all schools.

4/14/2010 9:25:09 PM

Durham employees were recently surveyed which they would rather face: A one time furlough to help cut job losses or a permanent pay decrease to help cut job losses. (you could chose neither if you were of the "fuck em fire em" mindset)

Well the vast majority picked the furlough. An email was just sent out informing us that district mandated furloughs are ILLEGAL and cannot happen.

4/15/2010 4:28:51 PM

^ lol you would think that'd be the sort of thing they would research before asking for opinions.

4/15/2010 7:06:27 PM

is there any talk of counties/districts selling tax advantaged municipal bonds to raise funds?

4/15/2010 7:06:45 PM

^^^ so the state can mandate a furlough to all employees, including teachers, to generate funds. But the district cannot? Seems kinda odd. Personally, I'd rather that mandate come down from the people closer to me and who are more familiar with the needs of the specific district.

If the majority of the employees would prefer for everyone to take a "little" hit vs people losing their jobs, that shouldn't be illegal. I can see why maybe it was made illegal to begin with. But it seems to be getting in the way of people doing what they think is a good thing in this situation.

4/15/2010 8:57:20 PM