2

4/27/2010 11:42:47 PM

Quote :

"and I'm actually pretty fucking smart...I'm a grad student in mathematics at probably one of the top 40 programs in the world. And while I know a lot of really smart atheists/agnostics, I know a lot of really smart Christians, too."

Well, apparently you aren't smart enough to recognize your own stupidity and that makes you pretty fucking stupid son.

4/27/2010 11:44:30 PM

yea i dunno. every time highly educated people are religious it just gets me thinking about why. like did you go through a traumatic experience or something? someone should do a study on this.

4/27/2010 11:47:23 PM

Quote :

"do you think miracles only come if you pray? like people that are in horrible car crashes and walk away when they should have died - i'm sure they didn't pray beforehand "if i get in a crash please let me live." jw what you think - honestly, not trolling. "

No, not at all. I've read accounts by agnostics in World War I, for example, who suddenly decide, for no identifiable reason, to throw themselves on their faces; and then a bomb (which was traveling faster than the speed of sound, and which they therefore could not have heard) hits the wall exactly where they were standing. (Admittedly, they could be lying; but this is just an example. And this kind of shit does happen.)

Praying helps, perhaps; but no, miracles can happen for any reason or none (none discernible to us, anyway), I believe.

Quote :

" but yea i had a really LUCKY circumstance in a stream of really horrible luck last year and it got me thinking about miracles. but thats the thing. when something good happens its a miracle but when something bad happens it is bad luck. why aren't miracles just good luck?"

That's a very good point, I must admit. I am inclined to think that in a lot (maybe most cases) it IS good luck. It's only a miracle if it's obviously supernatural, or if your luck is so good that it's unbelievable to think that you were that lucky just by chance. For example, if you're walking down the street, see a quarter on the ground, bend over to pick it up, and bending over to pick up the quarter somehow saves your life, and thereby duck a brick that some crazy guy has thrown at you, then that's a miracle, for me.

Yeah, I've been through at least two pretty traumatic experiences...but that's not why I'm religious. And like I said, there are ridiculously smart Christians all up in this bitch

4/27/2010 11:56:19 PM

You throw all of that "intelligence" right out the window when it comes to your religion.

What can I say? You're an indoctrinated fucking fool.


All religious arguments get boiled down into two simple forms:

1) The individual accepts that none of it is reasonable and their ridiculous beliefs are based on blind faith.

2) The individual bases their beliefs on logical fallacies.


I have searched and searched for even ONE fucking argument that doesn't use logical fallacies or the claim that it "just requires faith" (A non-answer) in support of religion. I've yet to find a single argument that stands up to scrutiny. If you've got that shit then, by all means, "PRESENT THEM".

Contrary to what most idiotic religious people think, as a non-theist I LOVE to be challenged and I actually try to unsettle my current understanding of reality. I regularly entertain arguments from lots of different apologists. They simply don't hold water. I have been baptized and confirmed, I have gone to church a ridiculous number of times. I have read multiple religious texts, etc. I'm just waiting for someone to honestly give me a real argument that doesn't involve these ridiculous logical fallacies, "faith" or things like your absolutely fucking pathetic "miracle" bullshit. Give me concrete shit or GTFO with your coincidences and psychological failures. You would have found anything suiting to your fucking situation because you "have faith" that this magical being will give you a sign. You gave yourself the sign son.

A miracle needs to be a lot better than "I prayed for answers and I found them in a religious text." If you are able to do something that defies the laws of physics, come tell me about it. Otherwise, keep your filthy, low life coincidences to yourself.

4/28/2010 12:08:49 AM

^^ well right and i mean i wouldn't consider myself a staunch atheist. i am more like agnostic. but again i think its a continuum for me and i'm probably like slightly leaning toward atheist but i'm still agnostic...if that makes sense. that is why when people ask about religion i tend to say i'm spiritual and not religious. like, i don't do dogmas.

so i don't know if miracles do or don't exist. but its not something i like to spend my time on. my biggest qualm with a lot of religious folk is their like obsession with the next life and divine intervention and i mean - i'm not content to live my life HERE on earth based on some afterlife. and if there is a god, and they are good, and they know my true heart or whatever, then they will know that i have tried to be a good person even though i haven't subscribed to some dogmatic creed or whatever. and that is just how i feel.

but what happened to me was my mom was in the hospital dying of cancer last april and my dad had just gotten out of a different hospital (he had a stroke while my mom was hospitalized) and i picked him up from wake med in raleigh and then went to see my mom at duke in durham. well when i got there i met with like 10 doctors who all basically told me this was the end, my mom was never going to wake up, etc etc etc. and i was like shit. and i didn't want to call my dad and tell him cause he JUST had a SEVERE stroke like they didn't think he was going to ever speak or walk again and had JUST gotten out of the hospital himself. but i didn't know what else to do and felt alone so selfishly i called my dad and told him and my uncle drove him to duke because we needed to figure shit out. well while he was there he had another "stroke." it ended up that he had a genetic clotting issue and had a clot building in his brain like his entire life and only special imaging instruments (that wake med didn't have, but duke did) could pick it up. so it wasn't from stress or high bp or anything and the doctors said that that second stroke was inevitable (because the stroke treatment he got at wakemed did nothing for him - he still had a giant clot) and if it had happened while he was home alone, he would have died. but luckily he wasn't alone and was in a really freaking good hospital when it happened. and the doctors own words were "this is a miracle."

and that is really the only time where i've questioned luck vs. miracles. like MAYBE maybe that could have been a miracle. but i dunno. i'm still on the fence. cause it happened at such a bad time in my life i feel like that is why i was hasty to call it a miracle. because that is like psychologically pleasing or whatever. like hope in a time of heartache or whatever. but i dunno.

i get where you're coming from though. i don't discount that supernatural things MIGHT exist. i just tend to lean away from that. and since i'll likely never know, i just choose not to live my life based on the unknown. but i guess that is why people call it faith. it just isn't really my thing.

/WORDS

/TL;DR

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 12:18 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 12:17:58 AM

^ Don't fall for his friendly bullshit.

This is what he needs right here, you could use it too. Also note that if you do not accept the claim "god exists" that makes you an atheist. I get tired of explaining this over and over. You can be an agnostic atheist, but as soon as you say you cannot accept the claim "god exists" you become NOT theist, atheist. Theism has to do with belief, while gnosticism has to do with knowledge. You can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist. If you accept the claim "god exists", but still wont go so far as to say you can KNOW it exists then you're an agnostic theist. If you accept and "KNOW" god exists, you're a gnostic theist. If you cannot accept the claim "god exists" but you don't think you could know for sure, then you're an agnostic atheist son. You are most likely that given your definition, unless you're saying you do accept the claim "god exists".



Atheist Experience #443: Interpreting the results of prayer

4/28/2010 12:33:59 AM

yea but atheism is annoying too because most atheists are like way into it and try to shove their ideals down your throat and thats the whole thing i don't like about religion. the like zealousness and the dogmatic shit

so

FUCK ATHEISTS AND RELIGION. i just live.

4/28/2010 12:35:31 AM

Read the edit, you are an atheist (NOT-THEIST) as soon as you can't accept the claim "god exists".


Certain types of buddhists are atheists.... Stop generalizing and deal with reality on its terms.

You don't actually understand the terminology, sorry. The only thing all atheists have in common is the fact that they don't accept the claim that god exists. The rest is completely variable. Raliens are atheists.... Certain Buddhists, as I already said, are atheists.... They still believe in ridiculous shit. Being an atheist does NOT make you a skeptical person. Stop generalizing and thinking you are some special shit because you call yourself agnostic.

4/28/2010 12:38:31 AM

i DO understand the terms. that has nothing to do with people shoving ideals down your throat though. and atheists still do that!

i don't want to be labeled as anything. but i get what you are saying. i'm not an idiot

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 12:41 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 12:41:02 AM

Ok, so you're an agnostic theist then? You DO accept the claim "god exists", right? Because otherwise I hope you do realize that you're talking about yourself when you say "atheists"...

I don't think you actually read my edit with an open mind. You don't understand the terminology or you wouldn't be trashing yourself. There are theists and atheists. As soon as you don't accept the claim "god exists" you become an atheist. Even if you don't think it's knowable, as soon as you say "I can't accept the claim that god exists is true" you've put yourself in the atheist category. You would be an agnostic atheist at that point. Just being agnostic isn't a real category. You either accept "god exists" or not and then you can decide whether or not the question is ultimately knowable. I would argue that almost NO atheists are "gnostic atheists" (Or a 7 on the "Dawkin's scale"). On the other hand, I find that most theists are gnostic theists. They believe and "know" god exists. You can believe god exists but not think it's ultimately knowable and that makes you an agnostic theist, those are much less common around here from what I find.


Again, you are generalizing and you're being an idiot. Atheists don't share anything in common other than not accepting the claim "god exists", some are going to be far more pushy than others. Some still believe in ridiculous shit, it doesn't mean they're intelligent. Hell, you can be an atheist for no other reason that you feel like it. You don't have to know anything about the arguments presented by theists or atheists to be either one. The only time I even bring the shit up is when some idiot brings up their god bullshit first. I'm just not going to accept logical fallacies as being a real argument. I'm fine with you being an idiot as long as you will fucking accept that fact.

As an individual who has read numerous religious texts, has been baptized and confirmed and has also seen every argument shot down, I've simply asked to be presented with a real argument. I'm still waiting.

4/28/2010 12:41:56 AM

Quote :

"FUCK ATHEISTS AND RELIGION. i just live. "

this wasn't meant to be a SERIOUS statement. thought that was clear esp since it was followed up by "i just live"

and, yes, i realize that i am also an atheist. but i also said i'm not a STAUNCH atheist. i don't attend atheist meetings or get into arguments about it with everyone that i meet. all i was saying is that there are atheists, too, that shove their shit down people's throats and TO ME are just as annoying as overly religious folk (i don't mean ALL atheists obviously. i mean that they exist. overly zealous atheists. i really don't know how to make it clearer. i had a certain person in mind when i made that post so it made sense in my head envisioning her)

get it?

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 12:51 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 12:50:48 AM

Quote :

"and, yes, i realize that i am also an atheist. but i also said i'm not a STAUNCH atheist. i don't attend atheist meetings or get into arguments about it with everyone that i meet."

Sure, I understand what you're saying, but I'm still saying that you have a misconception of what most atheists are. You can't generalize them very easily and, as I said, you're one as well and you don't fall into that generalization. How come you think no other atheist is like you? The ones I know disagree with each other about EVERYTHING at any kind of gathering. It's friendly arguing, but it's insane how little they agree on other than one thing (And even there, they disagree sometimes). In public, most of them keep their beliefs to themselves. If someone says "god bless you" they say "god bless you" back, because they know the person meant well by the statement.

I will say that I don't know a single atheist who argues when it's inappropriate (Which is seriously 99% of the time in non-internet life). The other thing is that most atheist meetup groups have discussions that are completely unrelated to atheism. It's nothing close to a religion, you don't worship anything or have any rituals or even have any standard rules of living or anything. Hell, most times you just talk about random shit. It's like "oh, you're an atheist.... cool... so, uh, what kind of beer do you like?"

4/28/2010 12:54:34 AM

When did this thread get so serious? I never thought anything originating from ICP could erupt in legitimate arguments.

4/28/2010 12:57:25 AM

^^ well i just had someone in mind when i wrote that and i've encountered a few people who like bring it up incessantly and i'm like, i don't really give a fuck i'm trying to eat/drink/do whatever not listen to you rant about something that I AGREE WITH YOU ON. so, anyway. that is where i'm coming from.

and obviously i know you don't worship in an atheist meeting. i just feel like the whole idea of a meeting is kinda odd. i mean i guess it isn't because people have meetings for everything so whatever. just like i'd never wear a shirt that says "jesus rocks" i don't feel the need to wear a shirt that is like "atheism rocks" or " my favorite color is purple" or any other statement. i was talking about people like that. which you might not have encountered but i have encountered several.

and if you're talking about beer then why even have an atheist club to begin with! why not just have a beer club? in religious things you don't always talk about religion. or maybe you do. but i bet a lot of it is like "oh how is susie. oh will you be at the country club for brunch sunday blah blah vomit blah"

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 12:58 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 12:57:26 AM

I think should be put in their face. Not everyone is like them and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't wear those shirts, but I wouldn't have any problem with wearing them.

People gather with other people who aren't religious because it's a more comfortable environment where they don't have to pretend to be somebody they're not. This is particularly useful in areas like the bible belt or when your entire family and everyone you work with are religious. It's nice to be in an environment where you're comfortable. That is why you'd meet with other atheists.

You should watch that show I posted son. You'll see what I'm saying son.

4/28/2010 1:00:04 AM

i mean i understand where you're coming from. but i feel like once you try to convince like 28340293847 religious people of your views and get nowhere you will probably feel more defeated like me

anyway i will watch what you fucking posted son

but only if you promise NOT to call me an idiot again son. because i'm not a fucking idiot. and i resent that comment.

p.s. so atheism = anti theism? just wondering if i'm totally confused.

p.p.s. is it the same thing as freethinkers?


[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 1:04 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 1:01:56 AM

No, an atheist does NOT have to be a skeptic, "free thinker" (Whatever that even means honestly), or even rational. All you have to do to be an atheist is not accept the claim "god exists".

An anti-theist is something you can be in addition to being an atheist, but not all atheists are anti-theists (Are YOU an anti-theist?). As I said, certain types of Buddhists are atheists! They are religious atheists. They believe in things without evidence. The only thing all atheists have in common is the non-acceptance of the claim "god exists".

A more important video for you would be this one honestly (That other one was for miracle boy). This is a video about "belief" in general (Also touches on knowledge), it is very useful to understand this:

4/28/2010 1:12:06 AM

Like I said son, check the above video first. It is very helpful and I think it will clear up a lot of shit for you.

4/28/2010 1:16:46 AM

whats interesting and i dunno if you know more about the validity of this, but in one of my courses recently we were talking to this dude who went to i dunno...some great school (can't remember which one) for theology. and he said that most people in theology programs (or at least his...may have been vanderbilt? i can't remember) weren't religious at all.

that is why i really don't understand how education (especially higher education) comports with religion (specifically christianity, but any religion really)

4/28/2010 1:17:01 AM

The guy giving this lecture became a strong atheist after attending seminary. He wanted nothing more than to become a preacher, but research destroyed his religiosity.

This video doesn't really cover that, but just watch it and you'll gain some stuff.

4/28/2010 1:19:08 AM

The first thing you learn in logic class is the age old one:

God's existance cannot be proved or disproved.

4/28/2010 1:30:31 AM

G.O.D. online

tdub proved it long time ago!

4/28/2010 1:31:46 AM

Quote :

"God's existance cannot be proved or disproved."

Yes, just like unicorns, fairies, trolls, etc. As such, until evidence is provided that supports the extraordinary claim, there's no reason to consider it real.

You can't prove or disprove the "brain in a vat" bullshit either. But the fact is that you must accept this reality on its own terms until otherwise demonstrated. Watch the most recent video I posted, it covers all of this. If you can shoot it down, do so, but at least watch it son.


Again, this is the video I'm saying kadwackle and G.O.D need to watch son:

4/28/2010 1:33:57 AM

just fyi you do realize that i already didn't believe in miracles and shit when i came in here? i mean i guess i said i did (with the agnostic leaning atheist thing) but based on your posts i definitely don't. or i definitely am an atheist. which i already knew.

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 1:37 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 1:36:52 AM

This video doesn't cover that, just trust me on this and watch the damned thing. It's an extremely detailed lecture on belief and knowledge, it's not overly basic or simple, it's intended for an intelligent person. The lecture is being sponsored by the ACA, so a lot of people there are atheists, it's not something you'd just inherently know necessarily. It does go into the "brain in a vat" possibility and other interesting things.

4/28/2010 1:39:17 AM

most atheists on the planet are people 'just living'

there are staunch dickhead atheists just like there are staunch dickhead christians and staunch dickhead everything.

4/28/2010 1:39:49 AM

son, I don't have time to listen to ugly bald headed men with nasty beards, cause I gotta go to bed

4/28/2010 1:40:38 AM

Not my problem son. Later son.

4/28/2010 1:41:35 AM

^^^ that is what i thought!!

but apparently not?! i don't know. it isn't something i sit around and thing about everyday. my time isn't consumed with "god doesn't exist god doesn't exist god doesn't exist"

unless im confronted with overly religious people and then i just get angry and try to get the fuck away before i murder them

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 1:42 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 1:41:42 AM

Well son, I can't help any further son. You can watch it or deprive yourself son, the choice is yours!

4/28/2010 1:45:28 AM

dude i'm gonna watch but its an hour long i will watch tomorrow son. i'm just sayin your videos need to be watched by people who don't already agree w/ you. like jeffreybsg or whatev.

4/28/2010 1:46:38 AM

That other video was for him. This video is for you though. It's not for him, he wont be able to handle it. It's an extremely useful lecture, don't form an opinion before you see it. I found the lecture useful and I was a strong atheist before I saw it.

4/28/2010 1:48:58 AM

Why can't we get back to the serious issue of MIRACLES SON

R.I.P. ASS DAN 1981-2010

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 1:52 AM. Reason : ]

4/28/2010 1:51:27 AM

^

Quote :

"PURE MOTHERFUCKIN' MAGIC"

...the true roots of this thread.

4/28/2010 2:23:29 AM

it's a miracle this thread got two pages so quickly, and that it got a single non-sale meme post over 30 words.

4/28/2010 3:33:15 AM

SKEW MUH, BUT THAT FOOL NEEDED TO BE HANDLED.

YOU DON'T BRING YOUR PATHETIC "I PRAYED AND OPENED A BOOK AND I MADE THE PASSAGE I SAW HAVE MEANING, IT'S A MIRACLE!" PILE OF DOG SHIT INTO THIS THREAD AND GET AWAY WITH IT WHILE I'M ON THE CLOCK BITCH.

I WILL PUT YA DOWN SON.

I'LL PUT YA DOWN.

4/28/2010 7:53:22 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YujYTVQ4_S0

4/28/2010 9:17:16 AM

So did the guy finish his essay about Alexander the Great or did he graduate with an engineering degree??

4/28/2010 9:57:05 AM

hahaha yall are some dumb motherfuckers

4/28/2010 10:08:36 AM

I would think Jules believes in miracles (or divine intervention at least):

4/28/2010 10:11:53 AM

I believe in miracles as long as we're defining a miracle as something with a low probability that happened to work out in your benefit and not "I wanted something and god gave it to me"

4/28/2010 10:17:07 AM

As long as we define miracles as something that would be physically impossible without divine intervention, I'm fine with that. There isn't a single miracle that can be demonstrated to be real. Not one. They're either ridiculously pathetic like this dude's or they're outlandish and non-repeatable.

That kid's miracle is the most pathetic miracle I've ever heard man. I have never met anyone with a bar that fucking low. No wonder he thinks a supernatural being is giving him shit. I swear, he doesn't even realize that his god, by its very definition, is self contradicting and a logical failure. The fact that he doesn't get that his "miracle" is no different than him reading a horoscope and thinking it applies to his current situation is pathetic btw.

4/28/2010 10:21:34 AM

Wow, this shit really blew up

If you don't want to accept my example as a miracle, fine. But you haven't justified why you don't accept it...you've done nothing but call it "low" and "ridiculously pathetic."

Now, you say

Quote :

"I swear, he doesn't even realize that his god, by its very definition, is self contradicting and a logical failure. "

and that's just ridiculous. I'm not a Bible-thumping, fundamentalist Southern Baptist. I've given a lot of thought to the various questions of hell, why bad things happen to good people, etc. and reached solutions regarding them, mostly by changes in creed.

Dude, the truth is that you are a textbook example of the closed-minded, intolerant atheist. You have decided that there is no God and that everything proceeds according to physical law; and on the basis of that assumption you disregard and ridicule any proposition that doesn't jive with it. You have faith in your atheism...you don't even stop to consider that my example might be a miracle, for the simple reason that you don't believe miracles can exist.

I've been an atheist myself, but I eventually adopted Christianity for a number of reasons which seemed, to me, adequate. A great many other people (many of them very intelligent) have done the same. No one is asking you to agree with them, but you might, out of pure logic, give them the benefit of not regarding them as fools.

By the way: do you hate intolerant religious people? Then don't be an intolerant irreligious person. There's not a whole lot of difference, in practice.

4/28/2010 11:24:34 AM

Probability is not understood ITT

I thought you were a math major JeffreyBSG?

Suppose 1,000,000 people play the lottery and each one has an probability of winning of 1/1,000,000 (scratch off - guaranteed winner).

Everyone buys a ticket. Its quite likely that 50% of those that buy a ticket are poor and desperate, and of that 50%, another 25% are religious, believe in prayer, and actually ask God to help them win.

So we're looking at 62,500 people that have bought a lottery ticket and prayed about it.

Now suppose one of those guys actually wins! he reads the odds on the back of a ticket and sees 'woah! there is only 1 in a million chances that I would have won this money, God must have intervened!'

When in reality, 6.25% of the time some religious dude is going to win the money. Not that much of a miracle at all.


JeffreyBSG - Now lets apply the same logic to you.

Given that there are ~1,000 pages in the bible, maybe 10,000 things you could call passages.
How many people do you think struggle with an issue in life and randomly turn to the bible for an answer? There are likely (low estimate) 50 million active religious folk here in the us, and over the span of ten years in their lives, most likely 50% of them have had an issue and opened the bible to reflect on it.

If we assume that the bible contains a passage for only about 1% of the situations you could encounter in your life - then when any individual opens the bible to a random passage to reflect on something in their life, the probability they turn to an appropriate passage is 1 in 1 million (A miracle!!)

However, we have 25 million people that are doing this within the last ten years, so the probability of your situation occurring in the US is 1 - (1-1/1,000,000)^25,000,000.

Which is, oh, about 1. Not a miracle

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 11:41 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 11:39:17 AM

Fundamental differences between atheism and agnosticism not being understood ITT

4/28/2010 12:40:29 PM

Fundemental leaps in logic being made ITT.

4/28/2010 12:43:07 PM

JeffereyBSG is the kind of fucking idiot that wastes thousands of dollars on a Psychic

"BUT, SHE GUESSED THAT I HAD A DEATH IN THE FAMILY. SHE'S REAL I TELL YOU!"

4/28/2010 12:46:12 PM

I'm pretty fuckin far from a christian, but trying to tell this dude that he didn't experience a miracle is laughable.

I can understand the logic if you define a miracle to be an occurance that's "physically impossible without divine intervention"... but that's a poor definition. I'd simply define a miracle as "an act of god with signifcant or extraordinary impact". Pulp fiction is mostly just good entertainment, but I think Jules is actually pretty on the money with his miracle rant. It doesn't matter if the "act of god" in question can be explicitly proven to defy scientific law, all that matters is if the person that experiences believes that it is.

That may be a tough definition to deal with because you might argue that you can walk down the street claiming everything is a miracle...fucking magnets, pelicans and shit... but I say do what you want. If you "feel the touch of god" in something you observe, no matter what definition of god you may have, then fuck it that's your fucking miracle. It may not be a miracle to someone else, but who cares.


Here's my last thing about miracles. I don't think what you interpret as a miracle is the important part. I think the important part is how you interpret what it means for you and your life. What I'd warn against is assuming that the miracle is telling you to do something. What I reccomend is just reflecting on it and using it as a tool to reflect on your life.

IMO this guy was looking for a sign to put his life on track, and he found something that touched him. Hopefully he used it as a tool to decide that he was fucking up and needed to change some things. I don't know if I'd interpret it as god wanting him to be a christian, but if doing so helped him get his shit together...more power to him.

4/28/2010 2:02:35 PM

Maybe it's a miracle that I log on tww for probably the first time in a year or two, see this thread, and have to call out some haters.

4/28/2010 2:08:14 PM