^ exactly my point, Just because it makes somebody feel bad doesn't mean that their feelings should control society actions.

I find abortion offensive, I'm not justified in killing anyone, nor do i find it necessary to become a soldier for god and blow up and kill a few hundred people.

These are modern times, I'm sorry that they are going to have to get with the picture that yes, somebody might piss them off.

The best response they could take, and one that would appeal to the modern world would be one of why would you do something offensive? That wont stop it, but it will at least bring public pity.

Instead they only bring the ire and hatred of people.

5/19/2010 4:53:27 PM

I, too, endorse mocking traditional beliefs. I have ideas, perhaps ways Pakistan can retort:

Kick-a-dead-fetus day
Snack-on-a-kitten day

5/19/2010 4:56:59 PM

Even better:

Treat-women-like-animals Day
Have-sex-with-a-child Day

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 4:58 PM. Reason : double post became better post]

5/19/2010 4:56:59 PM

Quote :

"^ exactly my point, Just because it makes somebody feel bad doesn't mean that their feelings should control society actions. I find abortion offensive, I'm not justified in killing anyone, nor do i find it necessary to become a soldier for god and blow up and kill a few hundred people. These are modern times, I'm sorry that they are going to have to get with the picture that yes, somebody might piss them off. The best response they could take, and one that would appeal to the modern world would be one of why would you do something offensive? That wont stop it, but it will at least bring public pity. Instead they only bring the ire and hatred of people."

Turn the other cheek is what you want them to do.

Choosing to abort a baby is your choice. Yes it offends another persons beliefs but it is your right (for now) to do so. This directly affects YOUR life and your would be childs.

Now if I photoshop your mothers face on some disturbing porn and say hey look what your filthy mother does! Are you going to turn the other cheek? Is there really any reason for me to do so other then to antagonize you? Isn't it my right to do what I want regardless if I am going to piss anyone off or not?

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 4:59 PM. Reason : a]

5/19/2010 4:59:00 PM

Quote :

"The drawings is an example of mocking. You trying to stick it to the religious groups and control what they can and cannot do is oppression."

Oppression: (Merriam-Webster)
1: unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power b : something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power
2 : a sense of being weighed down in body or mind

You need to use your words more carefully. In no way could drawing a picture ever be considered an unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power. You know this, but you still call it oppression. Your use of the word oppression is intellectually dishonest.

The same holds true to my "trying to stick it to the religious groups and control what they can and cannot do".

I have no power over religious groups. I don't try to control religious groups. I suggest that what they are doing is wrong and should be changed. Again, your use of the word oppression is dishonest.

Finally, don't even attempt to call this an ad hominem since I am addressing your use of the word and not your character.

5/19/2010 5:01:25 PM

Quote :

"Kick-a-dead-fetus day Snack-on-a-kitten day"

At least post something that makes sense (something that a Muslim country might do in retaliation due to religious mocking by Christians/atheists/Westerners).

For example,

Stomp-the-US-Flag Day
Boycott-Western-Products Day

etc.

5/19/2010 5:03:32 PM

Quote :

"You need to use your words more carefully. In no way could drawing a picture ever be considered an unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power. You know this, but you still call it oppression. Your use of the word oppression is intellectually dishonest."

/facepalm

Now I see why I have to explain things to you over and over. I made a general statement saying that in AMERICA you can mock and oppress who you want when you want because its your right to do so. I didn't say "This drawing is an example of mocking and oppression! ZOMG!"



I will do my best to ignore you.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 5:04 PM. Reason : I called it though, another ad hominem response.]

5/19/2010 5:03:34 PM

Choosing to draw a picture of Muhammad(peace be upon him) is your choice. Yes it offends another persons beliefs but it is your right (for now) to do so. This directly affects YOUR life and your would be drawing.

Just because somebody gets offended does not give them Carte Blanche to do whatever the hell they want.

We live in a society. Current society states that its okay to draw a picture, at least in America of whatever you want, even child porn.

Now of somebody wants to kill you because of it, thats their deal, but killing people currently isn't legal, at least not for drawing pictures.

So they have to deal with being offended, just like everyone else in the world, and if their religion calls them to kill people well, they can either change their religion, or all go to jail. The modern world isn't going to cave to their beliefs.

5/19/2010 5:11:38 PM

Quote :

"You have Islam mistaken for extremism."

I assume that a picture of the prophet is most offensive to those who would take up arms and kill the cartoonists. Therefore, by drawing the prophet, one would be mocking precisely the ideology that embraces killing opposition. What are you arguing?

Quote :

" Also, the United States is just barely out of oppressing women and minorities in its own history. I say barely because it still happens and isn't out of the system entirely. "He without sin cast the first stone" applies here. (Whether you believe in God or not) "

Oh, yeah, we probably shouldn't use any historical lessons that we've learned and apply them in any way whatsoever. We haven't perfected spaceflight, lets not share our technology and knowledge. We haven't perfected cancer treatment, lets just let everyone else figure it out on their own.

Is that really the position you're taking? We've come a long way towards improving equality and justice in America, why shouldn't we share some of those lessons?

5/19/2010 5:14:27 PM

Quote :

"Choosing to draw a picture of Muhammad(peace be upon him) is your choice. Yes it offends another persons beliefs but it is your right (for now) to do so. This directly affects YOUR life and your would be drawing."

Ok, so you won't be offended when I photoshop your moms face doing 'naughty' things because it is MY drawing. It is MY photoshop for MY spank bank so what do you care? After all this is America and I can piss off whoever I want.

Quote :

"Oh, yeah, we probably shouldn't use any historical lessons that we've learned and apply them in any way whatsoever. We haven't perfected spaceflight, lets not share our technology and knowledge. We haven't perfected cancer treatment, lets just let everyone else figure it out on their own. Is that really the position you're taking? We've come a long way towards improving equality and justice in America, why shouldn't we share some of those lessons?"

The position I am taking is "We, too, are imperfect and learning our way through this thing called life."

Its one thing to share your knowledge with the world and another to be smug about it and mock everyone else around you that isn't like you.

Quote :

"I assume that a picture of the prophet is most offensive to those who would take up arms and kill the cartoonists. Therefore, by drawing the prophet, one would be mocking precisely the ideology that embraces killing opposition. What are you arguing?"

wrong. The drawing is offensive to any (or most) Muslims. Taking up arms and killing the cartoonist is an extreme response from an extremist. Doesn't mean non-extremists weren't offended.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

5/19/2010 5:19:55 PM

Quote :

"Stomp-the-US-Flag Day Boycott-Western-Products Day"

There's no insult to go along with the injury. No American/Christian would give a shit. I'm talkin pure tit-for-tat pettiness...which seems to be the driving force behind the Draw Muhammed Day.

5/19/2010 5:57:35 PM

The expectation of the Muslim community that non-Muslims should obey their "don't draw Muhammad" rule is offensive, to me (they might believe that this shouldn't offend me, but it does). I consider it a perfectly reasonable and balanced response to respond with something that offends them (I don't believe that this should offend them, but it does). It is not, however, a reasonable response to wish death upon someone for hurting your feelings (though really this is mostly just extremists, from what I understand).

Hell, I don't even like the idea that so many people of any belief expect their feelings to be protected. If you shopped my mother into a porn, I'd ask you, on a personal level, to stop. If you didn't, I'd write you off as an asshole and ignore you. Hell, even when I used to be a Christian I didn't get offended by things like Piss Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ). That's really the mindset that I'd like to see spread with this cartoon issue - "Suck it up, the rest of us aren't here to coddle you."


I've already gone into greater detail on that stance in some older chit-chat thread, so that's all I'll say about it here.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 6:00 PM. Reason : .]

5/19/2010 5:59:51 PM

Quote :

"There's no insult to go along with the injury. No American/Christian would give a shit. I'm talkin pure tit-for-tat pettiness...which seems to be the driving force behind the Draw Muhammed Day."

You obviously don't hold one of the symbols of your country in such high regard. *shrug*

Quote :

"The expectation of the Muslim community that non-Muslims should obey their "don't draw Muhammad" rule is offensive, to me (they might believe that this shouldn't offend me, but it does). I consider it a perfectly reasonable and balanced response to respond with something that offends them (I don't believe that this should offend them, but it does). It is not, however, a reasonable response to wish death upon someone for hurting your feelings (though really this is mostly just extremists, from what I understand). Hell, I don't even like the idea that so many people of any belief expect their feelings to be protected. If you shopped my mother into a porn, I'd ask you, on a personal level, to stop. If you didn't, I'd write you off as an asshole and ignore you. Hell, even when I used to be a Christian I didn't get offended by things like Piss Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ). That's really the mindset that I'd like to see spread with this cartoon issue - "Suck it up, the rest of us aren't here to coddle you.""

One of the many reasons why our generation has taken humanity into the toilet. I only care about myself and fuck everyone else.


[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 6:07 PM. Reason : .]

5/19/2010 6:06:00 PM

No symbol should be held in high regard.

Quote :

"One of the many reasons why our generation has taken humanity into the toilet."

So, telling people to stop acting like reactionary children is a step backwards? Throwing tantrums is not progress.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 6:09 PM. Reason : .]

5/19/2010 6:07:32 PM

Quote :

"No symbol should be held in high regard"

lol. Ok buddy.

5/19/2010 6:08:07 PM

Quote :

"There's no insult to go along with the injury. No American/Christian would give a shit. I'm talkin pure tit-for-tat pettiness...which seems to be the driving force behind the Draw Muhammed Day."

OK, you obviously don't get it. If they WERE to retaliate in ways other than killing, they wouldn't kick dead fetuses or snack on kittens (acts which are forbidden in Islam, and fetuses and kittens are not exclusive to those mocking them).

They would boycott Western products, burn American flags, burn effigies of Western leaders, etc.

In fact, they have done these things in the past (when the Danish cartoons came out), and will do them again.

5/19/2010 6:16:44 PM

Quote :

"They would boycott Western products, burn American flags, burn effigies of Western leaders, etc. In fact, they have done these things in the past (when the Danish cartoons came out), and will do them again."

And, as he said, most Americans wouldn't give a shit (obviously Christian neocon types might try to be outraged, but fuck them)... beyond perhaps a furthered desire to draw Muhammed cartoons among some people.

5/19/2010 6:25:58 PM

Did I argue over the fact that Americans/Westerners wouldn't give a shit? NO.

I was arguing with him over what Muslims might do in retaliation. He said kicking dead fetuses and eating kittens. That was just stupid, and obviously a joke by him. But then he wants to defend it.

5/19/2010 6:29:05 PM

^^Yes because most Americans bitch and hate their own country as you do.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 6:32 PM. Reason : .]

5/19/2010 6:31:36 PM

You wanna photoshop my mom into a porn, go ahead. It's your right to be an asshole. I'm not gonna threaten you over it, nor am I going to go read Explosives for Dummies like Faisal and make a half-assed attempt to blow you up over it.

It's also my right to be an asshole if I want to be.

So eat a dick.

And we've seen the American flag trampled on and burned and effigies of everyone from Margaret Thatcher to George Bush to Barack Fucking Obama so many times it doesn't even offend anybody anymore. Nothing, no form of rage from the muslim world surprises anyone anymore.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 6:38 PM. Reason : *]

5/19/2010 6:38:17 PM

^^I hate America, now?

Hardly. I hate the idea of tying one's personal identity into things like nationality, race, or religion, so naturally I dismiss the idea of patriotism, but I don't hate the country of America. Hell, for that matter, I don't hate any nation. They're just places. Hating a country is just as irrational and pointless as blind patriotism.

If you're trying to refer to traditionally "American" ideals, on the other hand, I love freedom, equality, and independence. They're good shit.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 6:47 PM. Reason : .]

5/19/2010 6:39:03 PM

Quote :

"You wanna photoshop my mom into a porn, go ahead. It's your right to be an asshole. I'm not gonna threaten you over it, nor am I going to go read Explosives for Dummies like Faisal and make a half-assed attempt to blow you up over it. It's also my right to be an asshole if I want to be. So eat a dick. And we've seen the American flag trampled on and burned and effigies of everyone from Margaret Thatcher to George Bush to Barack Fucking Obama so many times it doesn't even offend anybody anymore. Nothing, no form of rage from the muslim world surprises anyone anymore."

We are all put on this earth to be assholes to one another...it is our right and fuck anyone who doesn't exercise that right.

5/19/2010 6:46:27 PM

Quote :

"Why people feel the need to go out of their way to mock someone else's beliefs is beyond me. "

I actually agree. If our society truly believed in religious freedom, people wouldn't feel the need to mock someone's belief in this way. That's how it would work in a truly pluralistic society.

But, are there actually any descriptions of what Mohammed is supposed to look like...?

5/19/2010 6:48:27 PM

Quote :

"I actually agree. If our society truly believed in religious freedom, people wouldn't feel the need to mock someone's belief in this way. That's how it would work in a truly pluralistic society."

Exactly. I'm not Muslim and I don't share their same beliefs but I'm also not going to attack them for it. Some of my friends are either Atheist or Agnostic which I don't share in their beliefs or absence of either...but I also don't attack them or mock them for it. Everyone is free to make their own choices. I won't bother you with mine but I also ask you don't bother me with yours.


(exception is on TWW of course because getting disco all riled up is entertaining)

5/19/2010 6:52:30 PM

http://www.mysticsaint.info/2006/01/how-did-prophet-muhammad-look.html

Quote :

"Muhammad (peace be upon him) was of a height a little above the average. He was of sturdy build with long muscular limbs and tapering fingers. The hair of his head was long and thick with some waves in them. His forehead was large and prominent, his eyelashes were long and thick, his nose was sloping, his mouth was somewhat large and his teeth were well set. His cheeks were spare and he had a pleasant smile. His eyes were large and black with a touch of brown. His beard was thick and at the time of his death, he had seventeen gray hairs in it. He had a thin line of fine hair over his neck and chest. He was fair of complexion and altogether was so handsome that Abu Bakr composed this couplet on him: "as there is no darkness in the moonlit night so is Mustafa, the well-wisher, bright." His gait was firm and he walked so fast that others found it difficult to keep pace with him. His face was genial but at times, when he was deep in thought, there there were long periods of silence, yet he always kept himself busy with something. He did not speak unnecessarily and what he said was always to the point and without any padding. At times he would make his meaning clear by slowly repeating what he had said. His laugh was mostly a smile. He kept his feelings under firm control - when annoyed, he would turn aside or keep silent, when pleased he would lower his eyes (Shamail Tirmizi). He was always the first to greet another and would not withdraw his hand from a handshake till the other man withdrew his. If one wanted to say something in his ears, he would not turn away till one had finished (Abu Dawud, Tirmizi). Those who have seen him, in describing him they always described him as someone in appearance whom they never saw before, and never saw even after his death. He was especially fond of children and used to get into the spirit of childish games in their company. He would have fun with the children who had come back from Abyssinia and tried to speak in Abyssinian with them. It was his practice to give lifts on his camel to children when he returned from journeys (Bukhari, Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2 pg.886). He would pick up children in his arms, play with them, and kiss them."

Read more at the link.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 6:57 PM. Reason : ]

5/19/2010 6:56:26 PM

kinda dumb thing for people to do on facebook. but, there are douches everywhere

5/19/2010 7:01:56 PM

Quote :

"We are all put on this earth to be assholes to one another...it is our right and fuck anyone who doesn't exercise that right."

He's not saying people should be assholes, simply that they have the right to be. Just as anyone else has the right to be an asshole to them in response. People also have the right to just ignore each other. The "fuck you" bits are towards anyone who would use threats or violence to say that people don't have that right (or, really, just to anyone who would say that people don't/shouldn't have that right).

Quote :

"Why people feel the need to go out of their way to mock someone else's beliefs is beyond me."

What I don't understand is why some people seem to believe in unconditional respect. I'm not going to claim that respect has to be earned... we should treat everyone we meet to some default level of respect, at least at first. What I am claiming is that disrespect can be earned, and when someone earns it, they deserve to be treated to it.

Drawing Muhammad is not just some spontaneous hostility. It's not just trying to piss people off for the sake of pissing people off. It is largely coming from people who genuinely believe that Islam trying to forbid everyone from drawing what they want is wrong and detrimental to society as a whole.

Quote :

"If our society truly believed in religious freedom, people wouldn't feel the need to mock someone's belief in this way. That's how it would work in a truly pluralistic society."

While true, can we say that such a society would be even remotely ideal? Is this something that we should strive for?

In such a society, we'd also have to respect extortion scams like Scientology and suicide cults, too, would we not? After all, many of those members do truly believe that theirs is the true religion. When some extremist Imam calls for the Islamic community to kill a person, should we just respect that?

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 7:15 PM. Reason : I'm out for a bit.]

5/19/2010 7:08:00 PM

Quote :

"While true, can we say that such a society would be even remotely ideal? Is this something that we should strive for? "

There are societies like that around the world (several caribbean states for example), and I would say that is something that we should strive for.

The fact that people would be more respectful to each other as humans beings means people are less dogmatic about their own beliefs. You wouldn't generally see, for example, a group trying to push Christian Creationism into the government.

5/19/2010 7:36:26 PM

Quote :

"He said kicking dead fetuses and eating kittens. That was just stupid, and obviously a joke by him. But then he wants to defend it"

lol you both missed it. I'm just pointing out things that would piss off a typical American that are only offensive because of cultural/traditional/religious sensitivities. We're not so different.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 7:37 PM. Reason : .]

5/19/2010 7:37:27 PM

Nevermind, too easy.

5/19/2010 8:07:52 PM

Looks like they've blocked YouTube as well.

If only they could act as swiftly to ban and destroy madrassas and training camps as they did to inhibt free speech. Clearly facebook, YouTube and cartoons are the more pressing issues of the time though.

Good luck with all that, Pakistan.

5/20/2010 9:36:54 AM

damn didnt work



[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 9:55 AM. Reason : didnt work]

5/20/2010 9:55:16 AM

Quote :

"In Islamabad, about 100 young men belonging to the Islami Jamiat Talba, the student wing of a religious political party, carried signs bearing slogans such as, "Death to Those Responsible for Blasphemy." They called Facebook a tool for spreading anti-Islamic sentiments. "If Facebook and other such tools continue to be used for blasphemy by the Western nations, then we will target their embassies," said Faisal Javed, 21. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/20/AR2010052002023.html

5/20/2010 10:00:50 AM

Man belief in mysticism is such a good thing for humanity.

5/20/2010 10:03:13 AM

Quote :

"The ban, which also included certain pages on the Flickr and Wikipedia sites, occurred a day after access to Facebook was suspended on orders from a Pakistani court. An Islamic lawyers group won that injunction, arguing that a contest started by users for drawings of the Prophet Muhammad — whose depiction is considered blasphemous by some Muslims — was offensive. The ruling demonstrated the power of hard-line Islamic groups in Pakistan. Although they rarely garner many votes in elections and represent a minority of this country’s population, the groups are often able to impose their will on the more peaceful majority by claiming a defense of Islam."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/world/asia/21pstan.html

5/20/2010 10:06:12 AM

Quote :

""If Facebook and other such tools continue to be used for blasphemy by the Western nations, then we will target their embassies," said Faisal Javed, 21. ""

go fuck yourself

5/20/2010 10:11:45 AM

Look, I want all religions eradicated, but I'd rather do it through education instead of.. you know.. being a giant douche.

5/20/2010 10:16:33 AM

Quote :

"Pakistani politicians have either remained silent or expressed support of the ban. On Wednesday, Talha Mehmood, chairman of the Senate standing committee on interior affairs, urged the government to redefine its relations with the West against the backdrop of an increase in incidents hurting religious sentiments of the Muslims. But the blanket bans have also provoked the ire of many Internet users within Pakistan’s growing middle classes, who rely on Facebook for communicating with friends and organizing events. Many argue that the decision to ban the websites en masse was injudicious. "Why on earth should Islam be given any immunity to criticism, hiding like ostriches and constantly getting offended is what has made us so backward," wrote one Nabiha Meher Shaikh. Badar Alam, a senior editor in Pakistan’s Herald magazine, argues that the ban reflects the increasing role of religion in the judiciary. “Since the 1980s there have been few if any at all progressive, liberal people who could make it to the bench,” he says. “The courts in Pakistan over the last three decades have in their judgments started citing religious injunction as much as, if not more, the laws and the constitution.”"

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2010/0520/Pakistan-bans-Facebook-Youtube-over-Draw-Mohammad-Day/%28page%29/2

Quote :

"Saudi scholar Ghasssam Al-Ghain said Muslims should ignore such issues and focus on showing the world Islam in its true spirit, something that he said is not happening nowadays. “To market Islam we should apply the ethics we have learned and keep everything clean and pure,” he said, adding that young Muslims should fight back by presenting a positive image of their countries, religion and Prophet. “Let the youth at least invest in and invent products that can keep us away from relying on their societies. Rather than focusing on wearing low-cut pants and showing their underwear in public, be men and useful members of society,” he said. Al-Ghain said boycotts are useless as they could lead Western countries to stop selling important products, such as medicine and hospital equipment, to Muslim countries. “People who call for boycotts think childishly,” he said."

http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article55568.ece

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 10:32 AM. Reason : ]

5/20/2010 10:23:56 AM

^^

hahahhaa, you'd rather do x than be a giant douche?

ahahahhahahahahahaahahahhaa

that right there is some funny shit.

just be yourself champ, it's all you're good at.

5/20/2010 10:37:26 AM

Do not try their patience.







[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 10:56 AM. Reason : whole ton of fail]

5/20/2010 10:51:30 AM

Damn, a lot of photos of terrorists in training

5/20/2010 11:19:45 AM

Quote :

"Look, I want all religions eradicated, but I'd rather do it through education instead of.."

Agreed. Most of the people in the comments on Facebook and other sites from the beet-red-faced angry Muslim side come across as some of the most uneducated people in the world.

We've got our share too, but they seem less fervent and harder to whip into a froth.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:25 AM. Reason : *]

5/20/2010 11:24:37 AM

Wait...are you saying religious people who believe in one religion or another are uneducated?

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:28 AM. Reason : .]

5/20/2010 11:27:25 AM

Pretty much.

5/20/2010 11:37:10 AM

Well that would put a HUGE majority of the human population classified under 'uneducated'

You better get on that.

5/20/2010 11:38:31 AM

Not necessarily uneducated, as there's probably nuclear physicists out there that are Scientologists. So maybe willfully uneducated in that area...

5/20/2010 11:41:50 AM

Sounds like a serious conflict of interest. If you believe in a religion you cannot also believe in science. Its just not possible.

5/20/2010 11:46:24 AM

tehehehehehe...nvm, too easy.

just kidding. One doesn't "believe" in science, retard.

[Edited on May 20, 2010 at 11:50 AM. Reason : science.]

5/20/2010 11:50:21 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0qA0QK8LsU

5/20/2010 11:53:07 AM

You guys love your semantics

5/20/2010 1:25:11 PM