There are plenty of good people in the middle east and if they disappeared it would suck

6/1/2010 12:19:29 PM

Quote :

"I don't claim to know the details here, but typically when such things happen there is at least the claim that militants are using these facilities as a base or otherwise hiding in their vicinity."

GrumpyGOP, I would suggest starting with the UN's own documentation, which says that Hamas did not use their schools as bases or as locations to hide. In addition, the coordinates of these locations had specifically been provided to the IDF so that they would not be attacked.

6/1/2010 12:19:40 PM

I'll post it again:

Egypt Opens Gaza Border

The flotilla succeeded.

6/1/2010 12:26:28 PM

Quote :

"Are you saying that Russian didn’t run Cuba blockade?"

They didn't during the actual blockade, no. For which we should be grateful, because if they had we would have had to shoot them, and if we shot them they would've retaliated, and we would have retaliated back, and from there it's like two steps to the nuclear obliteration of the planet.

I think you may be confused about the difference between "embargo" and "blockade."

Quote :

"The only difference that Gaza is part of Israel, the fact that we don’t like to mention"

Well, part of the reason nobody likes to mention it is that it gives the Israelis even more justification. They're allowed to say what you can and can't send to their country.

Quote :

"forces that is trained to deal with angry civilians!"

Hahahaha, I'm pretty sure the Coast Guard is the Israeli force that's least used to dealing with angry civilians.

Quote :

"I hope you are not comparing Somali pirates with international aid effort to send food and medicine to blockaded people, and who are unarmed (unless you count metal bars as weapons!)"

1) If I started hitting you with a metal bar, you'd damn well count it as a weapon.
2) I'm not comparing the missions of pirates and the people on this convoy, but I am comparing the nature of the military problem, which is to successfully board a vessel whose inhabitants are hostile.

Quote :

"The main outrage here is coming from Turkey and Greece who are Israeli allies and who had contributed the most to this campaign, and got their own people killed."

Turkey, certainly. And I don't care what they keep saying, Turkey's about as European as the damn moon. Haven't heard as much about Greece. But I don't know what Turkey expected, or why it didn't try to stop its citizens from going through with this. It isn't as though Israel doesn't have a pretty well-established track record. That doesn't make the people on the convoy responsible for their own deaths, but it does make them pretty stupid.

---

Also, unless this CNN quote is a bald faced lie:

Quote :

"The Israeli government described the flotilla as a "provocation," and had said it would allow the aid on the flotilla through its normal channels: unload it at Ashdod port and transfer it to Gaza."

Then I'm even more flabbergasted as to why they tried this blockade run in the first place.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 12:32 PM. Reason : ]

6/1/2010 12:28:44 PM

It makes them brave. The people in Gaza need a fucking break, and now it looks like they may get it via Egypt.

6/1/2010 12:32:19 PM

An heroes, every last one of them.

6/1/2010 12:36:33 PM

Well that's just dandy. Egypt is complicit in the sealing off of Gaza, and in order to get them to change the convoy embarks on a program designed to make Israel look like the pack of assholes.

Especially when it increasingly seems to me that the Israelis didn't have a problem with aid getting through, they had a problem with their blockade being violated:

Quote :

"Mark Regev, an Israeli government spokesman, called the flotilla "a cheap political stunt." "If they were really interested in the well being of the people of Gaza, they would have accepted the offers of Egypt or Israel to transfer humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza, along with the other 15 thousand tons sent every week," he said."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/27/gaza.aid.convoy/index.html?iref=obinsite

6/1/2010 12:37:16 PM

A BLOO BLOO BLOO POOR ISRAEL

6/1/2010 12:38:01 PM

Let's be clear, Egypt was OUR lapdog. It's really a victory against the United States.

Aid delivered to or passed though Israel conveniently "disappears". Everyone knows that.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 12:42 PM. Reason : .]

6/1/2010 12:41:03 PM

I'm just saying...if Israel said they could deliver the aid as long as they did it the usual way, then what purpose to the blockade deal? It risked lives for a political stunt more designed to make Israel look bad than to actually help the suffering Gazans. And it was a good plan: Either Israel doesn't enforce the blockade and they look like weaklings, or they do enforce it and they look like butchers.

Quote :

"Aid delivered to or passed though Israel conveniently "disappears"."

And aid delivered to Egypt?

Also, "Everybody knows that" isn't really much in the way of evidence. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I have no reason to believe you're right.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 12:44 PM. Reason : ]

6/1/2010 12:42:35 PM

Yes I'm sure they'll look like weaklings for allowing Gaza to rebuild

6/1/2010 12:44:04 PM

Or they cede control of all Palestinian territories, build big fucking walls and avoid the border to keep their populace safe, and look like decent human beings.

6/1/2010 12:44:32 PM

It's practically a moral imperative for Israel to help rebuild Gaza and the West Bank. They're wasting their (and our) money blowing the living fuck out of the Palestinians, hoping they'll disappear, leave, or become Zionists.

6/1/2010 12:45:45 PM

They're hoping they'll eventually get an excuse to commit genocide.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 12:47 PM. Reason : Of course last years war essentially was genocide.]

6/1/2010 12:46:26 PM

You seem to be dodging they main issue here, which is that they were offering to get the aid to the Gazans. Does it help Gaza rebuild faster if the aid comes into it on a boat rather than by truck?

What makes them look weak is declaring something (like a blockade) and then backing down from it in the face of international finger-wagging. In Israel's position, that's not really a viable option.

6/1/2010 12:47:17 PM

Only approved aid would have been allowed to pass. No cement, for instance.

6/1/2010 12:48:37 PM

Quote :

"You seem to be dodging they main issue here, which is that they were offering to get the aid to the Gazans. Does it help Gaza rebuild faster if the aid comes into it on a boat rather than by truck?"

Concrete isn't getting in by truck or anything else. People in Gaza cannot rebuild. There aren't sewers in many places, sanitation is a huge issue. Many places aren't even hooked up to the grid; plenty of people have to tap in illegally just to get electricity. Unemployment is fucking outlandishly bad.

They need resources, for fuck's sake, and Israel sure as shit isn't going to allow it to happen. This flotilla was ethical and I don't give a damn how many trained chimps the IDF lost.

6/1/2010 12:49:28 PM

JEWS

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 12:50 PM. Reason : Am I right?]

6/1/2010 12:50:10 PM

Quote :

"They're hoping they'll eventually get an excuse to commit genocide."

I'm certain that if Israel really wanted to do that, there wouldn't have been one non-Jew living in Gaza or the West Bank after 1967.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 12:52 PM. Reason : *]

6/1/2010 12:50:54 PM

Don't be a fucking idiot. They can't commit genocide.

6/1/2010 12:51:34 PM

They can't? Why not? You and a lot of others already accuse them of it.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 12:53 PM. Reason : -s]

6/1/2010 12:52:59 PM

Sure they can, as long as they're backed in a corner first. They have the unwavering support of the United States, they can do whatever they want.

6/1/2010 12:52:59 PM

Quote :

"They can't? Why not? You and a lot of other already accuse them of it."

Are you fucking serious?

You know what? Fuck this. I'll play with the fucking retards later. I can't do this now.

6/1/2010 12:53:26 PM

If people kept accusing me of stealing TVs and I get the reputation of TV thief, pretty soon I'm just gonna say fuck it and steal a TV. No point in having the rep if you don't have the big new 3d TV, son.

6/1/2010 12:54:26 PM

ITT there is an awful lot of faith that Hamas is going to use cement more to build houses and sewers and less to build fortifications.

But, hey, I've already said the blockade is stupid and wrong. It shouldn't be up. But once it is up, they can't dismantle it in the face of a flotilla steaming ahead to violate it.

6/1/2010 12:56:06 PM

Israel succesfully prevented the flotilla from doing anything more than raising a small stink.

By attacking them out in open waters at night they prevented any sort of media coverage related to aid efforts in gaza and by quickly shipping back detainees they'll spare themselves the wrath of any governments that actually matter. In a week this story will be far gone from the American press (probably gone from the american peoples' caredar in 3 days). In addition, 90% of the focus has been shifted to the non-issue of the attack and the detainees instead of the situation in Gaza.

6/1/2010 1:00:17 PM

^^Who cares what Hamas uses the cement for? It's their country.

^The border is already opened. The flotilla has succeeded. More relief ships are on the way.

6/1/2010 1:03:41 PM

yea sure... who cares what North Korea does with enriched uranium... It's their country!

6/1/2010 1:09:18 PM

Quote :

"Who cares what Hamas uses the cement for? It's their country."

This is dubious on several counts. Even if we accept that Palestine is independent -- which nobody does -- then its leadership is heavily contested by Fatah over in the West Bank.

6/1/2010 1:10:04 PM

Hudson: Let's just bug out and call it even, man! What are we even talking about this for?

Ripley: I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Hudson: Fuckin' A!

Burke: Hold on a second. This installation has a substantial dollar value attached to it.

Ripley: They can bill me.

Burke: Okay. This is an emotional moment for all of us. I know that. But let's not make snap judgments, please. This is clearly an important species we're dealing with, and I don't think you or I or anybody has the right to arbitrarily exterminate them.

Ripley: Wrong!

Vasquez: Yeah, watch us.

Hudson: Maybe you haven't been keeping up on current events; but we just got our asses kicked, pal!

Burke: Look, I'm not blind to what's going on; but I cannot authorize that kind of action. I'm sorry.

Ripley: Well, I believe Corporal Hicks has authority here.

Burke: Corporal Hicks has...?

Ripley: This operation is under military jurisdiction, and Hicks is next in chain of command. Am I right, Corporal?

Hicks: Yeah... yeah, that's right.

Burke: Yeah... look, Ripley, this is a multi-million dollar installation. He can't make that kind of decision. He's just a grunt! Uh, no offense.

Hicks: None taken. Ferro, do you copy?

Ferro: Standing by.

Hicks: Prep for dust-off. We're going to need immediate evac.

Ferro: Roger. We're on our way.

Hicks: All right. We take off. Nuke the site from orbit. (Glances at Ripley in agreement) It's the only way to be sure.

6/1/2010 1:12:28 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus

6/1/2010 1:31:00 PM

Quote :

"ITT there is an awful lot of faith that Hamas is going to use cement more to build houses and sewers and less to build fortifications."

It's cool, they can just build houses out of wood...oh wait, they aren't allowed to have that either.

Partial list of items prohibited into the Gaza strip:
http://www.fastforgaza.net/sites/default/files/List_of_permitted_and_prohibited_items_for_Gaza__0.pdf

So they can't fish, they can't build, they can't write, they can't play music, they can't irrigate, etc, etc.

At this point, if you are defending Israel, I don't know what to say.

6/1/2010 2:01:00 PM

thank God you are here to make it so cut and dry.

6/1/2010 2:05:58 PM

np, bro

6/1/2010 2:13:19 PM

Everyone knows that for rebels to run through an imperial blockade, you need to EMP the star destroyers, get past them, and make the jump to light speed.

6/1/2010 2:18:32 PM

I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back in Jerusalem. They're not much bigger than two meters.

6/1/2010 2:21:07 PM

I'm sorry I don't have much pity, Israel has the right to control its waters, and if it establishes a blockade then the simple solution is to not run it and go to an Israel port.

Guess what, in the United States you also have to go through a port before you drop of a ship full of supplies.

When you have shipmets of rockets and weapons coming though on a regular basis I can understand the need for a blockade.

Point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karine_A_Affair

Quote :

"The shipment included the following weapons:[1][2] 122 mm Katyusha rockets. 107 mm Katyusha rockets. 80 mm mortar shells. 120 mm mortar shells. Anti-tank missiles. Anti-tank mines. Sniper rifles. Kalashnikov rifles. Ammunition. Two and a half tons of pure explosives."

6/1/2010 3:43:29 PM

No telling what the truth is, but according to this article, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm, a German activist claims that he only witnessed wooden poles used against the Israeli soldiers.

He claims that only two and half batons were used, but I'm pretty sure I saw more than that in the first youtube video posted in this thread (which, by the way, was provided and notated compliments of the IDF).


The lower right-hand corner of the picture below shows where the ship was raided:




And according to the Guardian,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us

Quote :

"The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead. A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel."

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 4:01 PM. Reason : ]

6/1/2010 4:00:50 PM

lol are you fuckin kidding me

6/1/2010 4:01:29 PM

hahahahahahahahahaha

6/1/2010 4:05:01 PM

Israel:Big boat you are approaching our territorial waters what is your intention.

releif shipBlockade Runners: "Hey we are planning on running the blockade and delivering aid, weapons, drugs or whatever else we want to gaza"

Israel: Yea we don't like that so much, how about you go through you know, our port"

Blockade Runners: "No this stuff has gotta be delivered direct!"

Israel: "Yea not so much, we will board your vessels if you continue to try to run the blockade"

Blockade Runners: <middle finger>

Israel: <Sends in elite commandos with paint ball guns to stop the ship>

Blockade Runners: <Smashes commandos with sticks stones ectra>

Israel: <elite commandos respond to attack by shooting retards attacking them>

Blockade Runners: "I mean sure we could have stopped the boat, especially when they said that they were going to board us, but we decided our sunshine love sticks would bring us closer, and that they would see that we really do need to deliver weapons supplies to gaza.

If the ship was in Israels Contiguous Zone, up to 24 miles out, double territorial waters), and based on the graphic above they could have been, then they are within rights, as limited control for the purpose of preventing or punishing "infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea"

Which applies here.

Something is wrong with the graphic above, its showing its territorila waters at 50km out, which is incorrect. I would question the accuracy of the scale on the bottom.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 4:25 PM. Reason : dd]

6/1/2010 4:17:42 PM

lol, I love it... they're sending more ships to run the blockade... Meanwhile, Israel pledges to dramatically increase the level of force it uses against future blockade runners!

Hoping to see some serious antisemite carnage this week. God bless the IDF

6/1/2010 4:25:41 PM

I'm sorry, o don't consider blockade runners relief ships, rather criminals. I guess we could also consider Somali pirates relief workers as well.

6/1/2010 4:28:36 PM

Well they aren't Jews so I guess they're alright.

6/1/2010 4:29:33 PM

If one country blockades the waters around another country and an aid ship wants to get to that country without putting up with unnecessary delay, couldn't that ship be both an aid ship and a blockade runner?

6/1/2010 4:29:58 PM

Update: http://us.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.resolution/index.html

Quote :

"Israel began releasing activists detained from a Gaza aid flotilla Tuesday as humanitarian cargo aboard the ships was unloaded and taken into the blockaded Palestinian territory."

6/1/2010 4:31:31 PM

Israel is triggering the Streisand Effect. It will be their downfall.

6/1/2010 4:35:48 PM

is the gaza strip a country...

6/1/2010 4:38:05 PM

I know none of you fucking morons even know anybody living over there, but if you did, I doubt you'd be egging on either side.

What a bunch of immature pricks. Does the fact that real human beings are involved in this escape you? What a bunch of foolish American media whores. Fuck off, the lot of you.

6/1/2010 4:38:53 PM

Israelis can leave at any time. They've had ample warning this was coming. If they stay they are passive supporters of their government's human rights abuses. Palestinians are trapped, so they get the benefit of the doubt.

Besides, most Israelis are just racists by this point anyway. When this crisis broke, the first reaction of the average citizen was to criticize the military for botching the operation and looking foolish.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 4:44 PM. Reason : .]

6/1/2010 4:42:12 PM