^^actually you are totally right.

autism and schizophrenia come to mind

6/20/2010 12:22:16 PM

Quote :

"mine isn't as simple as that. its a biological thing like i said earlier...i have a reason this started but im not comfortable talking about it publicly. my body goes into fight-or-flight response for no real reason. i get a huge rush of adrenaline."

There may be something biological going on, but that's separate from the "mental illness".
Anything one can think about (consciously or subconsciously) can trigger "mental illness", whether it's some emotional event, or series of emotional events, or a physical trauma, or a physical disease, etc. "Mental illness" can happen to anyone -- it's a separate phenomenon from any actual real physical or biological phenomena.

Quote :

"no real reason"

The reason is maladaptive cognition -- faulty or inadequate attitudes, belief systems, and logic.

Quote :

"indy, are you saying that you believe that all mental illness is not of an organic nature, but simply maladaptive thought processes without biological origin?"

Yes.


...and before anyone argues against that, ("amino acids"?,) make sure you don't confuse the physical biological mechanism through which a phenomenon occurs, and the idea of that mechanism constituting the disease, rather than whatever caused it. (cart vs. horse)

6/20/2010 12:25:26 PM

my attack woke me up.


i was sleeping when i had it

explain that one homie

6/20/2010 12:27:39 PM

^

Quote :

"Anything one can think about (consciously or subconsciously) can trigger "mental illness", .... The reason is maladaptive cognition -- faulty or inadequate attitudes, belief systems, and logic."

...homie

(I know I make it sound simple when in fact it's very complicated... )

6/20/2010 12:31:14 PM

holy lulz at that B4C picture

6/20/2010 12:32:25 PM

I can think of several distinct mental illnesses that have biological causes.

Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are heritable disorders where specific structural differences have been identified in the brain.

Temporal lobe epilepsy has also been found in suffers of mental illness. Not to mention the dysfunction of neurotransmitters and the effects of brain injury.

6/20/2010 12:32:50 PM

Mohammed Ali has a mental illness from being beaten in the fucking face his whole life. I'd say thats biological.

6/20/2010 12:34:35 PM

^
^^
A biological cause isn't the "mental illness" itself, though. The "mental illness" is not biological:

Quote :

"Anything one can think about (consciously or subconsciously) can trigger "mental illness", whether it's ... physical trauma, or a physical disease, etc. ... it's a separate phenomenon from any actual real physical or biological phenomena."

And of course, actual neurological disease exists. That's the actual brain tissue having a problem, not something of cognitive origin.

[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 12:36 PM. Reason : ]

6/20/2010 12:35:24 PM

hahaha i love the word homie ( i realize that came off really bad )


i can tell im fighting a losing battle here.


ill leave it at... there is a lot more to the human brain that is still undiscovered.
while i generally agree with your logic i cannot, with my background, conclude that the basis of anxiety/panic attacks is not biological.
hell, most psych meds pharmacological properties are still unknown...so theres no real way to say whether its one thing or another.

and now that i think about it, i am disappointed at myself for taking such a strong stance on something that is still a huge mystery.

6/20/2010 12:36:51 PM

Quote :

"while i generally agree with your logic i cannot, with my background, conclude that the basis of anxiety/panic attacks is not biological."

What exactly do you think is biological about it? Are you simply saying that the phenomenon can only be manifested through some biological avenue? Because that's the "cart vs. horse" thing I was talking about.

I assure you that part of the reason you will continue to suffer is because of your incorrect insistence that your "mental illness" is biological. You need to be thinking about it correctly.

Quote :

"i am disappointed at myself for taking such a strong stance on something that is still a huge mystery."

Good point. I suppose I don't know everything, either.

6/20/2010 12:40:59 PM

Quote :

"I assure you that part of the reason you will continue to suffer is because of your incorrect insistence that your "mental illness" is biological. You need to be thinking about it correctly."

i didn't self diagnose.
should i point you in the direction of my doctors?

perhaps you could tell them what youre telling me

Quote :

"What exactly do you think is biological about it? Are you simply saying that the phenomenon can only be manifested through some biological avenue? Because that's the "cart vs. horse" thing I was talking about."

like i said earlier. i have a reason this started. it is NOT a psychological reason. its biological.
and i am not comfortable talking about it.
i think ive mentioned this like 3 times already.



[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 12:46 PM. Reason : i'm honestly not trying to be mean here, but there is a HUGE part to this story. ]

6/20/2010 12:43:08 PM

you guys are doing a pretty good job of talking about a potentially hot issue without getting all rawr rawr

i would like to issue you both a TWW Good Citizen Certificate

6/20/2010 12:45:03 PM

^lol. sometimes tdub does impress me

6/20/2010 12:45:39 PM

I think that you're doing the entire field of neurobiology a real disservice by blanketly insisting mental illness is not a physical disease.

Now, I don't disagree with your assertion that it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be mentally healthy, nor do I disagree that it wrongly suggests that one can be free of "mental illness."

I do disagree that all mental illness is the result of maladaptive cognition without a tangible biological cause. I think that there is too much information out there that states otherwise and I don't think that in all instances that it puts the "cart before the horse."

[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 12:51 PM. Reason : punctuation]

6/20/2010 12:50:17 PM

^^
^^^
OH YEAH!?!?! RAWR!!!!!!!!! LOL

Quote :

"i didn't self diagnose. should i point you in the direction of my doctors?"

lol, that's just it. There's nothing to diagnose.
"Mental illness" is not a disease, and doctors shouldn't be prescribing meds for it.
Drug and human biology professionals of some kind can be involved in researching and offering various drugs that make people feel better, but it simply should not be doctors treating disease., but rather psychopharmacologists performing mental cosmetology. (no less professional, though.)

Quote :

"like i said earlier. i have a reason this started. it is NOT a psychological reason. its biological"

That thing (whatever it is,) is separate from the "mental illness". It is something that triggered your maladaptive cognition. If I lost a limb, and became depressed, the "cause" of my depression is biological -- a missing limb. But the depression itself is merely a cognitive phenomenon separate from the biology associated with missing a limb.

[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 12:51 PM. Reason : ]

6/20/2010 12:51:33 PM

^you can use that line of thought in ANY illness then.

6/20/2010 12:55:42 PM

^
Uh, no you can't. What makes you think you can?

Quote :

"I think that you're doing the entire field of neurobiology a real disservice by blanketly insisting mental illness is not a physical disease. "

Good. It's not. Neurobiology can focus on mental cosmetology, and, you know, actual neurology. "Mental illness is quite simply not a physical disease -- there is absolutely no evidence that it is. (none)

Quote :

"I do disagree that all mental illness is the result of maladaptive cognition without a tangible biological cause."

Again, there can be a biological antecedent, but that's not the cause of the "mental illness". The "mental illness" is 100% cognitive, and as I said, there is no evidence to the contrary.

Quote :

"I think that there is too much information out there that states otherwise and I don't think that in all instances that it puts the "cart before the horse."

Link?

[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 12:58 PM. Reason : ]

6/20/2010 12:57:05 PM

Terry Schiavo should have just gone for a walk and gotten over it.

6/20/2010 12:57:52 PM

6/20/2010 12:57:55 PM

it sounds like in your reasoning all illness are a state of mind caused by something biological.

i feel achey and my head hurts because of the flu.
however the flu was the cause, the fact my head hurts is pure cognition and shouldn't be treated.

6/20/2010 12:59:42 PM

violent j is a master of flow and internal rhyming

6/20/2010 1:00:40 PM

Quote :

"lol, that's just it. There's nothing to diagnose."

there is.
hyper secretion of the adrenal gland.

and i know your gonna come in here and say something along the lines of "well you though of something that made you secrete that much adrenaline etc etc"...next time ill try not to think about that stuff IN MY SLEEP

and btw:



[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 1:04 PM. Reason : sree]

6/20/2010 1:02:18 PM

Quote :

"Terry Schiavo should have just gone for a walk and gotten over it."

You have to be trolling. I've explained this rather well for someone to actually confuse that issue.

Terry Schiavo's actual physical brain was damaged. Actual physical trauma. Brain damage is not the same as "mental" damage.

Quote :

"it sounds like in your reasoning all illness are a state of mind caused by something biological."

All mental illness are a state of mind caused by something cognitive, not biological. Whatever triggered the cognition (cognition is just thinking -- we're always doing it,) could be biological, but that's separate. Actual biological illness is not a state of mind -- it is real. Actual tissues and cells that are harmed or ill.

Quote :

"i feel achey and my head hurts because of the flu. however the flu was the cause, the fact my head hurts is pure cognition and shouldn't be treated"

A headache is not "mental illness".
The physical mechanism through which a headache manifests isn't cognition.

6/20/2010 1:05:07 PM

two questions.

what do you do for a living/go to school for?


and 2

what are your thoughts on schizophrenia or autism?

Quote :

"A headache is not "mental illness". The physical mechanism through which a headache manifests isn't cognition."

oh i know. i'm just using your line of reasoning.

[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 1:07 PM. Reason : sree]

6/20/2010 1:06:35 PM

Quote :

"Again, there can be a biological antecedent, but that's not the cause of the "mental illness". The "mental illness" is 100% cognitive, and as I said, there is no evidence to the contrary."

Schizophrenia. While Schizophrenia *affects* cognition, the changes in cognition are not the Schizophrenia itself. Schizophrenia is an inherited disease that causes changes in dopamine channels in the brain and other structural changes that alter cognition. Research into the causes of Schizophrenia is neurobiological not psychosocial.

[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 1:13 PM. Reason : and on that note, i'm putting my son down for a nap. ]

6/20/2010 1:07:27 PM

haha

the certificate is amazing

6/20/2010 1:11:40 PM

^

i'm actually about to bow out of this discussion.
i think indy has some really relevant points. however i am a little turned off about how sure he is of his convictions of something that is still relatively unknown.
he could very well be right but i'm just a little put off by it.

[Edited on June 20, 2010 at 1:15 PM. Reason : i expect this convo to proceed as nicely as it has been!!]

6/20/2010 1:14:22 PM

I love this video. I'm not sure what this has to do with what we're talking about, but I always think about this woman whenever I talk about neurobiology.

6/20/2010 1:15:48 PM

Quote :

"hyper secretion of the adrenal gland."

What causes that? Does it hyper-secrete all by itself?
If there's something actually wrong with the gland, that's one thing, but if some subconscious cognition is triggering a "fight or flight" feeling in your "mind" which biologically manifests though the over-production of adrenaline, that's another thing.
If I sky dive, my adrenal gland presumably starts up -- what caused that?
It's my cognition. My thoughts telling myself, "DUDE!! YOU ARE FALLING!!!!!! YOU WILL LIKELY DIE FROM THIS!!"

Thoughts. That's it.

Quote :

"two questions. what do you do for a living/go to school for? and 2 what are your thoughts on schizophrenia or autism?"

I don't see the relevance of the first question. Perhaps you're just curious. (pm sent)
Schizophrenia and autism, as my understanding has it, are neurological diseases and not "mental illness". But what do I know?

Quote :

"oh i know. i'm just using your line of reasoning."

No, actually you weren't. (Sorry....)

Quote :

"i'm actually about to bow out of this discussion."

Me, too.

Quote :

""

6/20/2010 1:25:24 PM

wow - a girl with fake tits taking prescription drugs - this should end well.

6/20/2010 3:35:34 PM

^What was the point of that

6/20/2010 3:46:43 PM

^^ NEVER discourage girls from getting fake tits.

6/20/2010 3:51:25 PM

Quote :

"I don't see the relevance of the first question."

The relevance being you're most likely just talking out of your ass without having any formal schooling in medicine.

6/20/2010 7:29:35 PM

Quote :

"If I sky dive, my adrenal gland presumably starts up -- what caused that? It's my cognition. My thoughts telling myself, "DUDE!! YOU ARE FALLING!!!!!! YOU WILL LIKELY DIE FROM THIS!!" Thoughts. That's it."

I don't think this is necessarily true, unless you count really primitive lizard-brain stuff as "thoughts". If I tip to the side really fast, so fast I might fall, I'll get a weird "woaaaah you're about to fall over!" feeling. It's not because I grasped on a higher level that I'm going to fall just yet, it's because the balance-gauges in my ears went nuts as my weight toppled. It's a pretty basic physical switch.

Same for being startled by a visual stimulus. The release of adrenaline when you're startled by an unexpected figure is too fast to be intellectually generated; your visual cortex did a rough approximative categorization and fired up the adrenaline just in case (it couldn't, according to its standards, rule out a bad outcome).

6/21/2010 10:36:00 AM

Anxiety attacks are basically an initiation of your fight or flight response.

If you've ever been in a situation like that, like if someone tried to start a fight with you, or you were mugged, or you were in an incredibly stressful situation like being fired from a job, those physical sensations that you got are what happens during an anxiety attack.

For some people, there really isn't a known trigger. You'll just be sitting there and before you know it, it will happen to you.

6/21/2010 10:40:45 AM

Quote :

"The relevance being you're most likely just talking out of your ass without having any formal schooling in medicine"

:facepalm:

Oh yeah, I forgot.
Critics must have actual experience with and formal education in any subject they wish to criticize.
I can't criticize religion, because I don't have any formal schooling in theology.
I can't criticize the oil spill, because I don't have any formal schooling in drilling, marine biology, or public health.
I can't criticize legislation, because I don't have any formal schooling in political science or law.
Remember y'all: No one can criticize anything that they don't have any formal schooling in.


It is wildly stupid and frankly dangerous to suggest that critics aren't credible unless they've undergone educational brainwashing of the very subject they're criticizing.

Holy fucking rolly eyes. (I know you're just butt-hurt over my calling out your "ghetto" hyperbole.)

Quote :

"I don't think this is necessarily true, unless you count really primitive lizard-brain stuff as "thoughts"."

Um, yes. The "primitive lizard-brain" part of our brain, is still part of our brain. ...a rather important part, in fact.

Also, skydiving happens for more than just a second. You accelerate and see the Earth coming at you. There is no reason to suggest that your brain, and your cognition, is unaware of the fact that you are apparently falling to your death. Even knowing that the parachute is there doesn't matter -- we all know they can fail.

[Edited on June 21, 2010 at 11:08 AM. Reason : ]

6/21/2010 10:58:22 AM

If you're going to be talking about neurological functions like an expert on the topic, it helps to have actually learned about said neurological functions.

But it's alright, I know you're just trolling

6/21/2010 11:00:04 AM

^
You have to fucking joking.
I mean, what the god damn fuck are you talking about?
Can you read?
Can you read a book?
Can you read a book and learn something?
Can you read a book and learn something without paying an institution to award you a degree based on your learning?

Get a fucking clue.
There is absolutely no reason any critic of anything should have to have a formal education on the subject before making valid criticisms. Do you have any fucking clue how many professionals operate daily in the world WITHOUT DEGREES IN THEIR FIELD? OMG!! OH NO!! CALL THE POLICE!!!!11

6/21/2010 11:05:50 AM

I would agree with you if the topic weren't on science. It's like being a critic of gravity

6/21/2010 11:07:51 AM

Quote :

"It's like being a critic of gravity"

Horrible analogy.

Hey!
Quick!
Show me your degree in phrenology!
What? You don't have one?
THEN HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU CRITICIZE IT?

6/21/2010 11:11:04 AM

You make this too easy I must say.

6/21/2010 11:11:29 AM

I don't get the argument going on in this thread. Can someone sum it up for me?

6/21/2010 11:11:55 AM

Basically one person saying that things like schizophrenia and anxiety attacks aren't biological conditions and other people saying that that's incorrect.

6/21/2010 11:14:33 AM

Um, no. That was the calm rational discussion we had yesterday. Today, you're making bullshit claims about my credibility. Fuck you.

wolfpackgrrr is fucking nuts.

She thinks that one must be a degreed professional before anything they say on the subject can be taken seriously.
She is obviously wrong.
She also obviously misses the philosophical aspect of any practice of science.
She also has (more than once?) blatantly misquoted me:
She says

Quote :

"one person saying that things like schizophrenia and anxiety attacks aren't biological conditions"

when I clearly said:

Quote :

"Schizophrenia and autism, as my understanding has it, are neurological diseases and not "mental illness"."

Lastly, she basically admitted to trolling:

Quote :

"You make this too easy I must say."

As far as I'm concerned, she should stay in Japan. Dumb bitch

6/21/2010 11:22:09 AM

Don't get too worked up now

6/21/2010 11:24:24 AM

Indy needs to change his tampon - he has the TSS something fierce.

6/21/2010 11:25:46 AM

^^
Go to hell, bitch.

6/21/2010 11:29:58 AM

Well, I mean.. if it comes from the brain, isn't that "biological?" What else is there?

6/21/2010 11:30:39 AM

Consciousness..... thought.... cognition
These are not tangible -- they are not matter.
Certainly biology supports their existence, but they are immaterial and not biological.

[Edited on June 21, 2010 at 11:34 AM. Reason : ]

6/21/2010 11:32:15 AM

6/21/2010 11:38:06 AM