religious reasoning is insufficient, as well

6/30/2010 12:38:32 PM

^^They will lose a way to justify their bigoted disposition, but their disposition won't change. There are other, equally flimsy ways of rationalizing it.

Religious preference isn't a justified reason for anti-homo laws in the first place.

[Edited on June 30, 2010 at 12:42 PM. Reason : ^^]

6/30/2010 12:42:12 PM

I agree, but it is in their minds.

6/30/2010 12:46:29 PM

^^You're absolutely wrong.

The only reason anyone would think a dude having sex with another dude is wrong is because of religion. I've yet to see any rational argument that wasn't simply apologetics in disguise.

The only reason lawmakers and voters would agree to this bullshit is because they're Christians, and their book, their pastors, and their parents have been telling them all their lives that dudes banging dudes is morally repugnant.

Religion is the justified reason for anti-homo laws in the first place.

And now some research:

Quote :

"14-177. Crime against nature. If any person shall commit the crime against nature, with mankind or beast, he shall be punished as a Class I felon. (5 Eliz., c. 17; 25 Hen. VIII, c. 6; R.C., c. 34, s. 6; 1868-9, c. 167, s. 6; Code, s. 1010; Rev., s. 3349; C.S., s. 4336; 1965, c. 621, s. 4; 1979, c. 760, s. 5; 1979, 2nd Sess., c. 1316, s. 47; 1981, c. 63, s. 1, c. 179, s. 14; 1993, c. 539, s. 1191; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)"

Bolded area references the Buggery Act of Henry VIII reenacted by Elizabeth defining buggery as as an unnatural sexual act against the will of God and man; Elizabeth made it punishable with death, btw.

So there you have it. Specifically in the State of North Carolina, laws against sodomy (and many other sex acts coincidentally) directly originates from Christianity.

[Edited on June 30, 2010 at 1:12 PM. Reason : emboldened]

6/30/2010 12:48:35 PM

What point are you trying to make? I think you misinterpret my usage of the word "justified". I'm not saying "no one ever made laws because of religion", I'm saying "religion shouldn't justify laws". Do I really need to explain that?

Quote :

"The only reason anyone would think a dude having sex with another dude is wrong is because of religion. I've yet to see any rational argument that wasn't simply apologetics in disguise."

What may not be a rational argument to us could certainly be a rational argument to most other people.

6/30/2010 2:08:00 PM

You seemed to have been shifting the justification for our specific anti-homo laws from religion to people specific preferences against homos. Our specific anti-homo laws can be traced back directly to the Church of England. And the only reason anyone would support them is because of their religious beliefs.

Quote :

"What may not be a rational argument to us could certainly be a rational argument to most other people."

Holy balls, man. If we can't agree on some level of objective rationality then we can't actually have a conversation about anything.

I'll re-posit that I've yet to see completely secular argument against homosexual acts. Every single argument against dudes boning other dudes can be traced to religion (and not just Christianity).

6/30/2010 2:18:28 PM

Well, you could theoretically make one that relates to propagation of the species, as homosexual copulation isn't going to produce a baby (unless I've been doing it wrong all this time). But yes, a counter argument could be made on that one that there's enough baby-making going on already.

6/30/2010 2:26:38 PM

Propogation of the species argument is invalid. Is it also a crime against nature for infertile couples to have sex? The propagation of the species continues independent of whether we allow gays to bang each other. See the thousands of other species on our planet in which homosexual activity is present and yet their populations continue.

This is commonly used as an argument against gay marriage, not homosexual acts. It is argued that the function of marriage is to create babies. Again this falls flat when considering couples that are a man and a woman who cannot possibly have children. But this thread is not about gay marriage, it's about gay acts. The government shouldn't be telling straight people how to get married or provide them with any benefits that cannot also be extended to not-straight people based on their ability to make babies. See, once again, man and woman couples who cannot possibly have children.

[Edited on June 30, 2010 at 2:33 PM. Reason : .]

6/30/2010 2:31:28 PM

so what exact verbiage in the OP and links would explicitly make "being gay illegal"

6/30/2010 2:32:57 PM

Quote :

"Holy balls, man. If we can't agree on some level of objective rationality then we can't actually have a conversation about anything."

I think we're on the same level of objective rationality. We both know what's rational. I, personally, don't think there is any rationale for being anti-homo.

I'm just pointing out that not all anti-homo sentiment is rational. People can vote in an irrational way, thus you shouldn't say "all anti-homo laws stem from religion because it's the only rational argument".

6/30/2010 2:35:14 PM

That's not what I'm saying, but let's not get into it since we're in agreement.

6/30/2010 5:08:11 PM

Quote :

"Finally, [citation needed]. Please provide an example of what can be generally considered crazy policy suggested by a group specifically because of their secularity."

disco_stu

Did you stop to think before you posted that? Have you considered the enormous damage done to humanity by Nazism and Marxism, just to name a couple of obvious examples? Ponder this.

6/30/2010 6:00:40 PM

insert Godwin's Law here

6/30/2010 7:45:07 PM

None of the Marxist or Nazi evils can be attributed directly to their secularism as can homophobia be attributed directly to Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. But thanks for playing.

And before you blame the Holocaust on atheism, can you show me in what holy book of atheism it tells you to murder people that you think are genetically inferior?

6/30/2010 8:16:13 PM

6/30/2010 9:24:55 PM

I thought killing Jews was the thing to do if you are Christian or Muslim, not athiest.

[Edited on June 30, 2010 at 11:11 PM. Reason : they killed a lot of gays, gypsies, and communists while they were ate it.]

6/30/2010 11:10:34 PM

[Edited on July 1, 2010 at 12:00 AM. Reason : /]

7/1/2010 12:00:10 AM