Anyone arguing that taking a laptop off a park bench is equivalent to stealing it off someone's front porch is fucked in the head.

[Edited on July 14, 2010 at 1:26 PM. Reason : ]

7/14/2010 1:26:06 PM

If it's not equivalent, it's not much different, and in any case, it's theft.

7/14/2010 1:27:31 PM

Quote :

"lol... Yeah, let's devolve the debate to comparing definitions. ACCORDING TO WEBSTER...."

I don't care what webster says, that's why I asked for your definition of theft. I am genuinely curious how one can define theft in such a way to have a viewpoint such as your own.

Quote :

"Anyone arguing that taking a laptop off a park bench is equivalent to stealing it off someone's front porch is fucked in the head."

Unless you hold the deed to the park where the laptop is found then what is the difference?

7/14/2010 1:30:37 PM

^
That is a major difference. You can't just "park" your property anywhere you want, except in certain situations like vehicles. The very nature of cars and other vehicles are that they transport people from their home to somewhere that isn't their home, so you can legally park them where allowed, and people can't just take them. This makes total sense. Other property is not like that. In a similar way to how a company loses its trademark if it takes no reasonable action to defend it, people lose their property if they take no reasonable action to defend it. If I go around leaving my property on sidewalks, park benches, etc., that is littering. By leaving the items there, you are giving them up. A reasonable action to defend one's property certainly includes not leaving it lying around in public. To suggest that people should be able to leave their property wherever they want for as long as they want is absurd. That is littering. The world is not your closet, lawn, or trash can. To suggest that the line between theft and non-theft lies in whether or not the items could reasonable be returned, is absurd. Theft requires intent to deprive someone of their property -- if you litter your property in public, you've already deprived yourself of it. There is nothing dishonest about picking up and keeping litter.

(I'm through, here. We'll have to agree to disagree.)

[Edited on July 15, 2010 at 9:10 AM. Reason : ]

7/15/2010 9:01:47 AM

You make no distinction between lost and abandoned property and therein lies the fallacy that satisfies my curiosity.

Quote :

"To suggest that people should be able to leave their property wherever they want for as long as they want is absurd."

Not sure where that came from but typically if something is lost you go back and look for it as opposed to storing your laptop on a park bench for an indefinite time because your desk is full. That is, of course, unless you abandon it, in which case it doesn't matter if somebody takes it because either you made it clear that it was abandoned and/or you aren't going to attempt to recover it. Luckily for anyone that loses anything of value and it's stolen, the law and them will never have to "agree to disagree" and a crime of opportunity is still a crime.

[Edited on July 15, 2010 at 1:16 PM. Reason : ,]

7/15/2010 1:02:48 PM

Quote :

"To suggest that the line between theft and non-theft lies in whether or not the items could reasonable be returned, is absurd. "

That's not what anyone is saying. It's not whether it's possible, it's whether you actually try. The key is here is what you do with the object after you pick it up. Putting it in your hands does not make it yours. Do you make a reasonable attempt to return it to its current owner (who by the way does not relinquish ownership simply by misplacing it)? Do you keep it and claim it as your own?

The latter is theft, pure and simple. There is this thing that becomes yours without any sort of transaction from the original owner. No agreement that the thing becomes yours between both parties. You just decide that it's yours by virtue that it's in your hands rather than the original owner. That's theft.

Now most people would agree that if you fulfill the reasonable attempt requirement and are unable to return it to its owner then it does in fact become yours. I'm not bored enough to look up NC statute but I'm sure there's something to that effect.

V, At least he knows that most people would try to get it back to him if we found it.

[Edited on July 15, 2010 at 1:57 PM. Reason : ]

7/15/2010 1:51:39 PM

all this dude wanted was his laptop back
i bet every time he sees this thread at the top he gets a little excited

7/15/2010 1:52:36 PM

I'm really glad that I've never actually known anyone as shitty of a person as indy seems to be. The optimist in me hopes it's just a shtick.

7/15/2010 2:20:22 PM

^
I never said such an action would be 100% moral, I'm only saying it shouldn't and doesn't fit the strict definition of "theft"
Semantics, not tolerance of immorality.

Quote :

"seems to be"

Perception isn't reality.

Also, why'd you call me out and not Slave Famous, arog20012001, Skack, & jbrick83?
Because they "seem to be" in agreement with me on this.
I guess we're all just horrible people, and not simply people making a logical semantic distinction...

Quote :

"I wouldn't call you a thief, just a bad, immoral person. I think it takes more effort to be an actual thief, just like it takes effort to be a good, moral person and try to return someone's lost goods. So you're lazy and not a good person because you won't take the extra effort to return someone's lost shit. But you are not a thief."

Quote :

"I wouldn't call you a thief, just a bad, immoral person. I think it takes more effort to be an actual thief, just like it takes effort to be a good, moral person and try to return someone's lost goods. So you're lazy and not a good person because you won't take the extra effort to return someone's lost shit. But you are not a thief."

Quote :

"I wouldn't call you a thief, just a bad, immoral person. I think it takes more effort to be an actual thief, just like it takes effort to be a good, moral person and try to return someone's lost goods. So you're lazy and not a good person because you won't take the extra effort to return someone's lost shit. But you are not a thief."

[Edited on July 15, 2010 at 3:01 PM. Reason : ]

7/15/2010 2:50:41 PM

Let me lay this out all logical like:

X leaves a ball on a bench accidentally.
Y sees the ball, with no one else around.

Y has choices: leave the ball, take the ball, yell "does this ball belong to anyone?"

any of these choices is valid, but only one choice walks down the line of theft.

Y chooses to take the ball.
Y now has more choices: turn the ball in to an authority (police, business, etc), attempt to manually find X (call, email, post a notice on the bench that you have the ball), or to make no attempt to find X and just keep the ball.

I would argue that "theft" is defined as when Y chooses to take the ball and doesn't make a good faith effort to exhaust ALL possible methods to return the ball to X.

The reason is, if Y had left the ball alone, then the requirement for finding the ball is still on X. Since Y took the ball, it would be impossible for X to find it without Y's assistance.

Simply trying ONE method to return the ball to X isn't sufficient. The choice to take the ball puts the responsibility on Y to return the ball to X. As long as Y has the ball, this responsibility remains. Giving the ball to an authority would, of course, remove that responsibility.

7/15/2010 3:42:46 PM

It's theft if, at any point in the process, you are willfully attempting (by your action or inaction) to deprive the rightful owner of their property. It really doesn't matter how you obtain said property.

7/15/2010 4:05:29 PM

Quote :

"Giving the ball to an authority would, of course, remove that responsibility."

And then the authority would be like "OH SNAP, I GOT A FREE BALL; WHAT WHAT!"

7/15/2010 4:27:05 PM

Well theres $400 in it for ANYONE who can get it back to me.
Also there was a BLACK Swiss Army backpack with it.



You dont even have to turn it in to me. You can just drop it off at the apple store or something like that. I wont judge/report you if you decide to turn it in after a week of keeping it.



I know im an idiot for losing it. But its got my name and work badge in the backpack so it should be really easy for anyone to turn it in.



Does your broke friend have a new macbook? if so check the bottom/back,

if it has a serial # W80140JT7XK

let me know and ill come take it back myself and Ill give you $400

7/15/2010 4:33:05 PM