How exactly is ISIS so well organized against the Iraqi government? Where do they get their weapons from? Or are they mostly guerrilla?

6/11/2014 7:31:17 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-begins-weapons-delivery-to-syrian-rebels/2013/09/11/9fcf2ed8-1b0c-11e3-a628-7e6dde8f889d_story.html

6/11/2014 8:25:26 PM

I think the question is what are we going to do about it, if anything.

To keep out might seem cold hearted, and the world might see the same kind of abandonment that we put Iraq through after the first gulf war. But I really don't want to see troops go back to Iraq, only to prolong the inevitable for a few more years.

6/11/2014 8:48:54 PM

This is on Bush and everyone who supported his war based on lies. Our time there cost thousands of lives and almost 2 Trillion dollars and for what? It looks like we empowered Al Qaeda types in the end. Saddam was horrible, but if we didn't waste our time getting into this mess based on the bullshit we wouldn't be in this situation.

6/12/2014 12:01:09 AM

Looking back at this thread

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=471788&page=18

Hilarious how much of a hard on kooksaw and TreeTwista had for Bush and how rah rah rah they were for the war. Seems like those of us that were skeptical that the outcome for Iraq are going to be proved right (and why wouldn't we? history has shown time and again that this would be the case).

6/12/2014 7:31:02 AM

Rebels marching to Baghdad.

I still don't understand how they're so organized and effective.... or is this simply just a a matter of all opposition laying down their weapons and running and the insurgents just rolling in? It's hard to grasp.



[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 9:12 AM. Reason : ]

6/12/2014 9:12:44 AM

^ I think that when the Iraqi military of Saddam's government was overrun by coalition forces, it desolved, leaving thousands if not hundreds of thousands of troops, colonels, generals, etc... displaced and some of which unable to join the new Iraqi military. Many of them ended up with ISIS.

That is a short and inadequate explanation of how ISIS isn't just a bunch of rag tag militants. They most likely have military training.

[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 10:16 AM. Reason : j]

6/12/2014 10:14:40 AM

^yeah, makes sense. always seemed like a huge mistake to completely dissolve the military, and not allow any of them to participate in government or offer any other compensation. what did they think they would do?


[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 11:04 AM. Reason : ]

6/12/2014 10:58:56 AM

Funny how dtownral's alias posted the link to the surge thread, then blames Bush, as per usual, for any current administration's problems.

You can't do that though because at the time, the Obama administration was talking about how great Iraq was now that they were in charge.

Some of kooksaw's words from the past:

Quote :

"BTW, the entire panel laughed openly at the video clip of Biden claiming Iraq as one of the "great achievements of this administration"--even though both he and Obama opposed "the surge": "

6/12/2014 11:26:17 AM

^so do you believe that we should have never left iraq, and just remain an occupying force for decades to come? because i'm not sure if there's any other way this could have been prevented after the way the war invasion/occupation was handled


[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 11:49 AM. Reason : ]

6/12/2014 11:44:29 AM

Quote :

"This is on Bush and everyone who supported his war based on lies. Our time there cost thousands of lives and almost 2 Trillion dollars and for what? It looks like we empowered Al Qaeda types in the end. Saddam was horrible, but if we didn't waste our time getting into this mess based on the bullshit we wouldn't be in this situation."

Hopefully it puts the nail in the coffin of the Bush doctrine and neocon ideologies of spreading democracy.

You can't spread democracy by bombing it into a country, or strong arming.

6/12/2014 11:46:37 AM

Quote :

"Funny how dtownral's alias posted the link to the surge thread, then blames Bush, as per usual, for any current administration's problems. You can't do that though because at the time, the Obama administration was talking about how great Iraq was now that they were in charge."

please show me where, in the past, I supported Obama's statements on how great Iraq was. I am not an Obama supporter and have never supported his Iraq policy.

[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 11:47 AM. Reason : hooksaw is my alias]

6/12/2014 11:47:01 AM

^No, I'm just assuming that is one of your alias's. It could be someone else's I guess.

Bullet, I certainly don't support an occupation any longer than what we did. I didn't really support the Iraq war all that vehemetely anyway. I'm just saying, don't blame what is going on now on Bush, and support the surge at the same time.

We should've drawn down rather than surge in the first place.

But dtownral said he didn't support the surge either, so I'll stop at that.

6/12/2014 12:23:22 PM

^I hear ya, but it's kinda hard not to blame Bush, since we never would have been there if not for him and the neocons

6/12/2014 12:28:13 PM

We shouldn't have ever been there at all

6/12/2014 12:31:48 PM

Or at the very least, gone home when

A) No WMD"s showed up

and/or

B) Saddam was captured

6/12/2014 12:32:51 PM

Quote :

"Saddam was captured"

I'd think the exact same thing would have happened then as is happening now and it'd be a more dangerous place without him (of course, we'd have saved trillions of dollars and 1,000s of american lives though)

6/12/2014 12:36:27 PM

It seems like the options at this point are to accept an Islamic state, or to commit to another 10+ years of heavy handed military presence in Iraq and dumping tons of money into keeping Iraq stable.

6/12/2014 1:15:06 PM

We don't have the resources or the will to go another round. We really don't.

And I don't see how anybody can blame Obama on this one. Unless he pulled out knowing that the Iraq security forces were so ill-prepared. But I doubt it. It is just a crappy situation, and we should probbly just turn our heads and look away.

But the same thing will happen with any progress we've made in Afghan. as well. As soon as we leave, within the next 3 years it will be controlled by the Taliban again.

And for what were all those lives lost?

6/12/2014 1:34:14 PM

Wow, check out the comments

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/12/militant-gains-in-iraq-catch-obama-administration-by-surprise/

6/12/2014 1:47:55 PM

Quote :

"We don't have the resources or the will to go another round. We really don't. "

We didn't have it the first time. No war was ever started with the resources, they all get paid off after the fact.

I'm kind of torn between "you break it you bought it" and "we're wasting money that could be better spent elsewhere" but the costs of war aren't included in normal budgets, so it's not like this money gets reallocated, it just vaporizes.

Then there is the security concern. What's the effect of a rabid theocratic state that viciously hates america gaining some official power? It would become the worst enemy we have.

But realistically, i don't know anything about ISIS (and i doubt most of you do either...), maybe they are fighting for a just cause and would support democracy...

^ that's a pretty sweet commenting engine

[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 2:00 PM. Reason : ]

6/12/2014 1:57:45 PM

Supposedly they're a more extreme version of Al-Qaeda... whatever that means.

6/12/2014 1:59:37 PM

Budgets don't include lives lost.

I couldn't imagine being an Iraqi who may have been able to live in peace for a while then all of a sudden have these people come in.

But come on...you break it you bought it?

What if Britain tried that with the whole of Africa. They'd still be over there trying to fix the mess they created.

6/12/2014 2:05:21 PM

also it kind of ignores the fact that the "buy it" part only makes things worse and wastes money. its great for government contractors and shitty for everyone else

6/12/2014 2:11:46 PM

^^^ they *are*

isil was a part of al qaeda (under their umbrella), but their tactics are so extreme in syria, that even alqaeda has denounced them and distanced themselves from isil. since then, isil has split away from al qaeda.

6/12/2014 2:24:11 PM

^^
We rebuilt Japan and Germany pretty good (granted under very different conditions). Seems there has to be a way we can help create a sustainable society where soldiers fight for pride in their country.

I don't accept,in general, that the situation is hopeless. There IS some way to take meaningful actuon.

6/12/2014 3:07:50 PM

I'd mention something about religion but that clearly has nothing to do with the people we're dealing with here.

6/12/2014 3:16:51 PM

^^That's very different, that was done after a war and not during it. They were also lead by intact governments from nations that still had manufacturing abilities and were not being funded by future US tax payers. No modern nation building has been successful.

And why do you think you can fabricate national pride? How long did it take for the US to have a national identity? About 100 years? We were "These United States" and not "The United States" until close to the 20th century.

[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 3:21 PM. Reason : you can't invent pride]

6/12/2014 3:19:13 PM

They're evacuating Americans

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/12/americans-being-evacuated-from-iraqi-air-base/

6/12/2014 3:33:08 PM

^^So many socioeconomic differences though between Japan, Germany, and Iraq.

6/12/2014 3:35:54 PM

yeah, i wasn't sure where to start with how many things are different between those examples

6/12/2014 3:44:57 PM

I guess if there were a credible strategy of coordinating air strikes with Iraqi ground forces to stop the ISIS advance and get them on the defensive, I might be ok with us getting involved. But it would have to be an official UN action, just like Libya, with no boots on the ground.

6/12/2014 4:58:43 PM

Quote :

"How exactly is ISIS so well organized against the Iraqi government? Where do they get their weapons from? Or are they mostly guerrilla?"

It's not that ISIL is particularly well organized, although they do have a lot of experience from the ongoing civil war in Syria. The real problem is that the Iraqi Army is being run by an inept Maliki government. The army didn't put up much of a fight to defend Mosul or any of the other cities. The Army had basically been mismanaged and neglected s they fought insurgents for the last few years. Lot of their soldiers, particularly their Sunni and Kurdish troops, essentially decided, "Screw this, I'm not going to die for Maliki and his Shia government" and deserted.

This is going to create a mass fubar in the region, particularly for the Iranians and Turks. As some in the press noted, the last thing they need is for a large Sunni, strongly anti-Shia fanatic army running amok just outside their borders. The ISIS spokesman noted that 'the Shia, 60 per cent of the Iraqi population, “are a disgraced people”, accusing them of being “polytheists”.' For the Turks, now they will have to deal with the emergence of yet another Kurdish homeland, but unlike before, this one isn't under the control/influence of the United States who can curb their excesses...

[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 5:08 PM. Reason : Correct an acronym]

6/12/2014 5:05:20 PM

It's not so much that the ISIL is so organized and effective... it's that the Iraqi Security Forces is not so organized and effective.

There's a stark contrast here between the U.S-trained Afghan forces and the Iraqi forces. Afghans, if you read TOLOnews and Khaama Press, are gaining a sense of national unity and identity. They are getting more and more competent about fighting the Taliban, and when they are successful, the population overwhelmingly supports their efforts, and they make sure they say so on social media. Backed by the population, Afghan security forces are much more enabled to protect their nation against these kinds of threats. Education has been a huge impact and they are not big fans of Karzai, and they are allowed to say so.

However, the Iraqi government has underwent a transition since U.S. forces left. Prime Minister Al-Maliki has systematically went against U.S. recommendations to make the government more inclusive of the Sunnis, and in some cases has arrested and executed U.S. allies who were good at the heart, but made several tough decisions to "glance the blow" of several insurgent influences. Therefore, people are skeptical about backing the government, and in turn, the military. In other words, they did not follow through with ensuring those influences were mitigated and allow certain activities to fester their society. These kinds of actions by the Maliki government sends a message to the population that you have to be a specific type of individual before the government will hear what you have to say. Free thought has consequences here.

[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 5:32 PM. Reason : a]

6/12/2014 5:29:36 PM

ISIS has plenty of personnel from Saddam-era military. They were Sunni and when the US/UN dissolved the Saddam-era military, those personnel didn't have anywhere to go; especially since the fuckers running show didn't include the Sunnis in on anything.

Current Iraq PM even furthered the divide b/n Sunni and Shiitte by refusing to allow Sunnis to be in the political/military process.

Then you have a ton of pissed off Sunnis who hate the gov't and they got recruited by ISIS (because of course), and now ISIS is kicking ass.

As someone who fought in some of these cities that are fallen, its very frustrating and angers me that the Iraqi Army let those cities fall as they fled their posts.

[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 5:55 PM. Reason : yep.]

6/12/2014 5:52:16 PM

The one thing I would add where I've seen some people here compare and contrast between Japan, Germany, Iraq and Afghanistan.

People tend to think that we have never dealt with radicals and fanatics before, but they're wrong. You cannot get more fanatic than Japan. Imperial Japan would have physically eaten ISIL alive had the emperor just commanded it.

Japan was so defeated that it recognized it needed change. And the change they underwent was extreme.

ISIL is using any and every means available to recruit... whether it's child soldiers, or telling people that this is going to bring about a prophecy to fruition, or the absolute intolerance of anyone who is not Sunni, and even if they are Sunni, it better be the ISIL brand of Sunni. It's a form of manipulation. They are empowering people who have never been empowered before. The solution is actually very easy... The regional leaders (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel) simply need to step up as leaders and not rely on world powers and proxy extra-military organizations to take that kind of stand. They also need to stop controlling the flow of information and allow free thought the freedom to exchange. A lot of these people are not educated, so they entrust their values to an authoritative figure who may or may not mislead them (though in most cases, they mislead them).

You have to decide what you're values are, and allow those values to be tested. If they fail the test, then free thought allows you to decide how to best reform those values. If they pass the test, your values are much stronger and instills pride.

They don't stop to think that the promise of "40 virgins and a mule" is outrageous, and that the kind of person who wishes for that sort of thing is merely a pervert who has enough faith that God would just grant that.

"You cannot force a set of people to enter the Gates of Heaven." - Iranian President Hassan Rouhani

[Edited on June 12, 2014 at 5:59 PM. Reason : a]

6/12/2014 5:57:00 PM

Not pointing at anybody in particular, but it is a joke to try to even begin to compare Iraq/Afghanistan with Japan/Germany.

Seriously.

You people don't understand how Muslims, Arabs in particular, see religion.

6/12/2014 7:58:09 PM

Speaking of Muslims and religion.

Always wondered...are there 72 different virgins for each martyr? Or are they all like hotdogs down a hallway?

Because man, going all the way back to the big Moh, talk about some sloppy seconds.

6/12/2014 9:08:47 PM

you should make a youtube video about that and see if it gets an american ambassador killed

6/12/2014 11:11:37 PM

After thinking about it for a second, I just realized my question was pretty dumb. They would have to be YOUR OWN virgins. Otherwise they wouldn't be virgins anymore.

But where do they get all these virgins? Especially this day and age.

6/12/2014 11:33:58 PM

How hard the war in Iraq has backfired would be hilarious...if we hadn't lost thousands of American and Iraqi lives and trillions of dollars in the process. When will we fucking learn.

6/12/2014 11:42:36 PM

These virgins are obviously young like 9 or something.

Is russia playing any role in this?

6/13/2014 4:22:40 AM

^^It's still hilarious. Our abject stupidity is hilarious.

6/13/2014 8:26:09 AM

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/13/us-iraq-violence-idUSKBN0EN0RV20140613

Quote :

"Iraq's most senior Shi'ite cleric urged his followers to take up arms to defend themselves against a relentless advance by Sunni militants, in a sharp escalation of a conflict which is threatening civil war and the potential break-up of the country. In a rare intervention at Friday prayers in the holy city of Kerbala, a message from Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who is the highest religious authority for the Shi'ites in Iraq, said people should unite to fight back against advancing militants from the radical Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant."

6/13/2014 9:54:41 AM

Obama is saying no ground troops but air strikes.

Classic obama...

6/13/2014 12:21:55 PM

6/13/2014 12:39:13 PM

He just keeps droning on...

[Edited on June 13, 2014 at 4:02 PM. Reason : ddd]

6/13/2014 4:01:58 PM

Well it does no good to point the blame anywhere really... Bush or Obama or whatever...

The fact is, this is what's happening now, and what are we going to do about it?

ISIL is a SPREADING threat and will wreak havok across the region. I'm actually ok with the Kurds claiming their own... I'd say good luck to those guys.

This is a new Great Game that's being played here and if the Arab Spring revolts have any meaning in this, it will be tested here.

There are no compromises with ISIL, you adhere to what they rule, or you die... dramatically and painfully. Much like the Spanish Inquisition, which ultimately lead to the Dark Ages.

If there was anyone the U.S. should go to war with, it's these fucking lunatics.

But we already gave it a gander... and it's time for these guys to shape up, or ship out. And if the Iraqis can't seem to get it together to fight for what they have, then they don't deserve it. This is the true test of what America has fought for. We fought to give them a chance, and it looks like they may have squandered it.

6/13/2014 4:04:25 PM

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/13/beck-issues-dire-iraq-prediction-on-hannity-this-is-the-beginning-i-fear-of-whats-going-to-be-spiraling-all-around-the-world/

play the first video for a great perspective on iraq

6/13/2014 5:18:59 PM

^^We've already used the whole "X is a threat to the world, not just the US" tactic against Saddam, Osama, the Taliban, al Qaeda, Gadhafi, communism, etc. We've worn it out. ISIL/ISIS might be just a big a threat to the world as the Nazis were back in 1938 Europe. We've cried wolf too many times though for the American public, or anybody else for that matter, to listen.

6/13/2014 5:41:38 PM