11/16/2010 6:54:44 PM

Quote :

"Seems like this is going to teach kids that deadlines don't mean shit"

I see that argument, but I'm going to counter with two points.

1) I don't believe "Deadlines matter" is one of the learning objectives in U.S. History, Biology, Algebra, or any other class. That's not what the teacher's are there to teach.

2) We're adults. How many of us think that every policy we had in any school we attended always applies to our current lives? In third grade my class walked in a single file line on the right side of the all everywhere we went. --- Don't remember the last time I did that. In high school, I had to be in home room by a certain time or I was "late." -- I have flexible hours at work. In high school, even though I was 18 years old my senior year, I had to have a note from my mother or father to leave school early for a doctor's appt. -- Unfortunately, I forgot the note from my mom last week and couldn't leave work early for my dental cleaning.

People understand that there are things that apply in some situations and not others.

Quote :

""Many parents ask about fairness: What about the conscientious student who keeps up with class, studies until 2 a.m. and pulls an A on a math test? Should a peer who skipped class and flubbed the test twice or three times get an equal grade? With the new policy, the ultimate grade on a student transcript could be the same, even though the two students took very different paths. ""

There is something in education called mastery. At the end of the day, do we really care what method a student used or how long it took them to master a learning objective? Or is it just important for them to master what they're at school to learn?

There are professors at NCSU who grade based on mastery. They allow students to take exams several times - that is, until they've shown they've mastered the material. It's important to note that these are not the exact same exams. But exams which are created from a large item bank of questions which assess the student's mastery of the included learning objectives.

Quote :

"The problem is that schools (read admin) have stopped caring about teaching and more about bureaucracy, numbers, and data."

My only qualm with this is the inclusion of numbers and data. You don't think data is important? If you have an increased rate of drop-outs, failures, students performing below grade level, etc., you have to attempt to make a change. Before you can fix those symptoms, you have to understand what is causing them. So you collect data. If you want to then fix those problems, you have to develop and implement a plan to do so. In order to that, and to measure your success, you collect data.

I don't know how someone who went to NCSU, a school that is very strong in the sciences, fails to realize the importance of good data. You think Apple collects and uses data? You think MS uses data? Walmart? It's extremely important in business analysis. And that includes the business of education.

Quote :

""In the first quarter, half of Mathewson's grades for two 10th-grade English classes were incompletes. "I don't believe it's an extra chance," she said. "It's an out. The root problem is motivation. The root problem is not that we're not teaching them."""

That also stood out to me. But for a very different reason I think. I read it along with another quote of a teacher saying they used "F"s for motivation and I couldn't help but feel sorry for the students who had those shitty teachers. The best they can come up with to motivate their students is "if you don't do the assignment, you'll get an F." I realize there are some kids that are near impossible to help. But for everyone of them there's a kid you barely have to do anything for and they'll excel. If that's the teacher's attitude toward the middle of the class, I truly feel like the students are being screwed over by their shitty teacher.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 7:49 PM. Reason : --]

11/16/2010 7:47:27 PM

Quote :

"I can't even invent ways to be pissed off at a 100 point scale. I can't imagine it's because you'd be pissed off at the number 100. It's an arbitrary number with enough precision to reflect a wide range of results. Maybe you just have a problem with numbers themselves? Yea, fuck numbers. I'm giving you a grade of pineapple."

problem is that there is no precision. well not with consistency anyways. a student who got a 55 on one teacher's chemistry test might get a 85 on another teacher's even though they have the same curriculum, text book, learning goals, etc. they just have different tests. and the tests usually suck.

also, what's the difference between a 60 and a 0? if you fail, you FAIL. whatever it is the teacher is teaching you to DO, you can do it or you cannot. if you cannot, you FAIL. so what's a zero? not doing it...worse? that's ridiculous.

see these links for more info and better explanations...

http://www.qcsd.org/21307362713541/lib/21307362713541/Standards-Based_Grading_presentation.pdf

scroll towards the bottom of this site for info about the 100 point scale. Dr. Marzano is a highly respected education researcher btw.
http://www.marzanoresearch.com/archive/FASBG_tips_archive.aspx

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 8:18 PM. Reason : ^oh and excellent post duro, i agree]

11/16/2010 8:16:42 PM

Quote :

"problem is that there is no precision. well not with consistency anyways. a student who got a 55 on one teacher's chemistry test might get a 85 on another teacher's even though they have the same curriculum, text book, learning goals, etc. they just have different tests. and the tests usually suck."

Likewise, a student who got a 5.5 on one teacher's chemistry test might get a 8.5 on another teacher's even though they have the same curriculum, text book, learning goals, etc. Or a 5,500,000 v. a 8,500,000. Or a 2.75 v. a 4.25. Stupid.

Quote :

"also, what's the difference between a 60 and a 0? if you fail, you FAIL. whatever it is the teacher is teaching you to DO, you can do it or you cannot. if you cannot, you FAIL. so what's a zero? not doing it...worse? that's ridiculous. "

Well hell-- what's the difference between a 70 and a 100, then? If you pass, you PASS. You can do it or you cannot. If yo can, you PASS. So what's a 100? Doing it... better? That's ridiculous.


duro982: This is exactly the shortsightedness that screws us every time. For nearly all students, teacher-enforced timeliness and responsibility are prerequisites to mastery.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 8:47 PM. Reason : ]

11/16/2010 8:39:10 PM

^ mastery of which learning objective in which class?

If you think something like "meeting deadlines" should be part of the curriculum, fine. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be necessarily. But it is not part of the algebra curriculum. It is not part of the biology curriculum. Teachers are there to teach very specific learning objectives.

I guess you could put "understand the importance of deadlines" in some type of business or life skills class. But anywhere else is just a bonus. That is not something teachers are tasked with teaching the students.


Feel free to elaborate on how meeting a deadline or responsibility is a prerequisite to mastery of high school chemistry though. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 9:04 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2010 8:52:13 PM

Quote :

"also, what's the difference between a 60 and a 0? if you fail, you FAIL. whatever it is the teacher is teaching you to DO, you can do it or you cannot. if you cannot, you FAIL. so what's a zero? not doing it...worse? that's ridiculous."

jeez. you know, if you every class had exactly one assignment that might make sense. but here's where the magic comes in. multiple grades are averaged together!

example: a class has 4 tests.
-student A only skips the first three tests and gets a 100 on the last one.
-student B gets a 70 on each test.

by your logic, both students should receive a 70 (a passing score)... even though one of them has absolutely ZERO comprehension of most of the material.

11/16/2010 9:12:01 PM

hey eurotits and boone,

how about you idiots read the links i post instead of relying on your limited knowledge and faulty judgment on grading practices and posting rapid-fire idiotic responses. ha. anyways. since you don't read....

Quote :

"One of the biggest traps that can render the formative scores collected meaningless is the improper use of the 100-point scale. Studies have demonstrated that when teachers design their own assessments and assign points to the items in those assessments, students can obtain very different total scores from teacher to teacher simply because the teachers weight items differently (see Marzano, 2002). For example, Haponstall (2009) described a study in which 557 teachers all graded one paper using the 100-point scale. While the majority of the scores were between 59 and 73, scores ranged from 38 to 91 (pp. 27–28). Instead of relying on the 100-point scale, use a rigorous rubric-based approach. Clearly, a better method for developing and scoring assessments is needed—one that ensures that the scale (the size of an inch) stays the same from one assessment to the next and that a teacher applies the same logic to scoring each assessment. As the preceding discussion illustrates, such a method would exclude the typical use of the 100-point scale. A Rigorous Rubric-Based Approach The concept of a rubric has been around for many years. Although the term is used in a variety of ways in the assessment community, its roots can be traced to the Latin rubica terra, referring to the use of red earth centuries ago to mark or signify something of importance. In the assessment world today, the term rubric usually applies to a description of knowledge or skill for a specific topic like that shown in table 3.3. Table 3.3 A Rubric for the Social Studies Topic of World War II at Grade 6 4 The student will create and defend a hypothesis about what might have happened if specific events that led to World War II had not happened or had happened differently. 3 The student will compare the primary causes for World War II with the primary causes for World War I. 2 The student will describe the primary causes for World War II. 1 The student will recognize isolated facts about World War II. To solve the problem of inconsistent rubrics from teacher to teacher, it is necessary to develop a systematic approach to rubric design. To solve the problem of inconsistent rubrics from teacher to teacher, it is necessary to develop a systematic approach to rubric design. In the books Classroom Assessment and Grading That Work (Marzano, 2006) and Making Standards Useful in the Classroom (Marzano & Haystead, 2008), a case is made that teams of teachers and/or curriculum specialists representing the district or school should design the rubrics for the content at each grade level and provide them to teachers. This is certainly the best approach to rubric design and is recommended highly. Simply put, the most powerful approach is for a district or school to provide teachers with the rubrics to be used over an entire year for a given subject area. If a district or school does not provide such resources for teachers, then individual teachers can and should design their own rubrics using a systematic approach. Just how to approach the design of rigorous rubrics is addressed in depth in the book Designing and Teaching Learning Goals and Objectives (Marzano, 2009)."

it's all about standards-based grading. do some research. be a good teacher. boone, aren't you a teacher anyways? yikes.

if a teacher is doing their job and using rubrics, they are going to be tied directly to learning goals, and if the learning objective is truly assessed, then there is not going to be much variability from teacher to teacher.

read marzano's book on formative assessment and standards-based grading.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 9:26 PM. Reason : ]

11/16/2010 9:20:45 PM

this website also has a lot of good info...

http://101studiostreet.com/wordpress/?p=391

an excerpt (words):

Quote :

"Standards-Based Grading is nothing new. It is implemented all over the world, but not very much in the United States. It is not a flavor-of-the-month as many cynical education commenters love to say. The whole flavor-of-the-month thing rubs me the wrong way: Sometimes I’m redirected to the catacombs of the Internet, where I find myself reading someone’s drivel about how myopic teachers and administrators are, and how we can’t help ourselves like moths to flame. As if we’re pulled into to the ice cream parlor and intoxicated by the newest fudge-brownie-mocha mixture without considering our cholesterol levels. Well, I’m lactose intolerant, and I’m sick of the cynicism. The disrespect teachers get with regards to the changing fads of education is getting a little tiring. I agree that there are fads pushed by people looking to make money and not positive reforms, but why do we have this problem? Honestly, because we’re being asked to do something impossible: Teach every kid, and make sure they succeed to a specific set of benchmarks. No matter what, or you’re a bad teacher. It doesn’t matter if they weren’t read to as a toddler. It doesn’t matter if they were never allowed to investigate something on their own. It doesn’t even matter if the kid spends more time in front of an xbox 360 than anything else. This is public education, and that kid’s a part of the public. So excuse us teachers if we’re looking for a strategy that works in order to do the impossible. Disclaimer: there’s no panacea for the problem in the preceding paragraph. This is the great American Experiment in Education, and my lab has supported one gem that certainly tips the battle my way: Standards-Based Grading. I will teach this way for the rest of my career in one way or another, not because I read an article in Ed. Leadership about it, but because it makes sense, and it helps my kids learn. So, here’s what I’ve learned, and what I’m working on: The Message Grades Send: Problem: Kids want to play games to get points in order to get an ‘A’. This is a problem because it puts emphasis on accumulating points and not on what the points are supposed represent: learning. You must migrate your system of grading away from grading every single assignment summatively (that is assigning a static grade for everything a kid does), and towards grades that are indexed by content. Students could not care less about their score on “Quiz 5? from last month; they don’t even know what was on that quiz. Don’t put that in your gradebook. Put the individual ideas that that quiz assessed in your gradebook, so that the students know what it is you care about. I do this, and my gradebook has ballooned to about three times its previous size. Oh well. Reporting Should Be Dynamic: Let’s say you really care about a certain bit of knowledge, so much so that you’re going to put in on a test. In other words, you want students to know it really badly. Like, say, the Pythagorean Theorem, and you consider your class worthless if the student hasn’t learned that piece of knowledge, then your grading system should be set up to help students remediate their misunderstandings, not screw them over for not getting it the first time.1 This looks like dynamic grades. (i.e.: Grades that reflect current understandings.) A 6/10 indicates a D-level understanding. Do you really want to damn your students with that grade, or would you prefer that they take that as a hint to get moving? You already want this, but yet you make grades summative. Why?! A kid that gets a lot of 6/10's already feels that their grades might be too low to fix — this can cause management issues. On the other hand, if you work intelligent and appropriate opportunities in for reassessment you are saying the following: * I want you to spend time getting better * I want to reward your effort by indicating how much you know2 Argue with that. Of course you have to work sensibility into the system, it shouldn’t be possible to do nothing and wait to study for the final. If it is, perhaps you should reconsider your curriculum. Consistent Enforcement & Transparency: Major Hurdle: Kids don’t listen on the day you present the syllabus/explain expectations, so they won’t understand your new grading system. You can belabor the point for the entire first day (why are you spending a whole day on the syllabus? Get going; they can read), but the students are so dead to classroom logistics that you’re going to have to teach about SBG as they go along. I have many moments throughout the semester where kids show me how trained they are by the previous system. Kids will ask me if they can do extra homework to raise their grade. Why the hockey sticks would someone ask that? It’s absurd. I don’t even grade homework!! I say, “No, but you can study and show me that you understand this topic from a previous chapter that you’ve previously demonstrated a low understanding of.” They usually snap back into our reality. This is the behavior I’ve wanted all along, and I’m happy to say I have it now. Anecdote: I once had a student at the beginning of a semester come in to “re-do a quiz,” as she put it. When we talked for a second, it was clear that she had done absolutely nothing to fix her previous misconception, which had already surfaced on the quiz. I asked her why she thought she could get a better grade without knowing more, and she said, “I came in after school.” I about cried; this is what she was trained to think. She made me let her try a re-do problem, and when I put one on the board she got huffy and told me that it wasn’t like the one on the quiz, despite involving exactly the same mechanics. She was angry and left, it took her months to figure out the system, and in the end she said she hated it because it was harder to get an A. She is why I must do this. This interaction haunts me. The end of the semester is another time that will test your SBG mettle. Kids will want to raise their grade from a B+ to and A- really badly. They want to get points any way they can, and in the old system this looked like writing another paper, or dong extra work. Which is exactly how it looks in the new system EXCEPT, if this new work doesn’t show any growth, then little Johnny still gets a B-. I’ve had kids cry over this, but I have to hold my ground. Parent emails be damned; Johnny didn’t improve from a 8/10 to a 9/10. He just didn’t, sorry. Kids need to be reminded that this system is about their learning, not about their points. Getting a 7/10 doesn’t mean the same thing for every concept, those lost three points are a message to keep studying, not a a summative deduction."

11/16/2010 9:26:52 PM

Quote :

"Feel free to elaborate on how meeting a deadline or responsibility is a prerequisite to mastery of high school chemistry though. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean."

You are.

If they're not doing their work in a timely fashion, they're not learning. Why assign work at all if you believe that it's not essential for mastery? If I shared your views, I'd have free days for the first 17 weeks, then cram for the week before the EOC.



^^ So, "use a rubric." Derpa Derp. What does that have to do with a 100 point scale?

^ So... wait, wut? Evaluate based on goals; not tests. Newsflash: they're one and the same. Still no relevance to a 100 point scale.

This is what I hate about you people. Just admit it: the 100 point scale is bad because it fails kids. And no kid should ever fail.

Quote :

"be a good teacher. boone, aren't you a teacher anyways? yikes."

And that's childish. I have damn good EOC scores. Way above state average. My EVAAS scores are in the positive for all categories. Most of my kids have a blast.

And the kids who don't put forth any effort fail miserably.



[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 9:48 PM. Reason : ]

11/16/2010 9:27:18 PM

You're right it was childish. I was halfway kidding.

100 point scale is faulty because, again, what is the difference between a 30 and a 0? What is the difference between an 84 and an 85 and an 86? Not much at all, except for a teacher's totally arbitrary grading practices.

The difference between a 3 and a 4 on a legitimately developed systematic rubric? Easy. A 3 is proficient. just like on a EOC. the student mastered the learning objective proficiently. A 4 is the student mastered the learning objective and then made other connections (higher level thinking skills that go beyond what is explicitly taught in class). There is much less room to be arbitrary.

Quote :

"And the kids who don't put forth any effort fail miserably."

This is a problem. What do you do with the kids who fail a test? Blame it on the kids and say it's not my job to motivate them? Move on and don't expect the kid to ever master the material? Let kids fail and be fine with it because they are lazy. No, that's the easy way out for the kids who don't care.

We could argue on whether or not teachers should have to motivate kids or not, and most days i feel like that shouldn't be our job. So let's not argue about that.

but if i was a good teacher i'd take responsibility for my students learning. and wouldn't let my kids slide by (at least so easily) with 0's and missing assignments. You give them an incomplete and make it clear to them that they will learn. It's my jobs to get my students to learn. and i'm going to make it hard for my students to NOT learn. which is why schools are not getting rid of F's, just making them harder for kids to say "screw school, this assignment, and my teacher. i'm just not going to do anything." Instead, schools are saying, "no, you ARE going to do something." They are saying that they will not get a report card until they do the assignment. Until they show some effort to re-take/re-do/LEARN the material that i am teaching. you call parents. you arrange remediation. you make sure as hell that these kids aren't going to be able to get by without doing assignments. you make it the expectation that ALL students will LEARN.

Does this cater to students' desires to be lazy and miss deadlines? Probably. Does it cater to student learning though? Absolutely.

on another note, i understand the obvious pressure to perform well on EOC scores, so serious props for those scores. seriously.

but most teachers agree that EOC scores don't assess student learning.

i will admit I do not teach an EOC class, so I have more freedom to cultivate real student learning in my classes instead of test-taking skills and memorized facts. and i am glad i have that freedom, as i totally disagree with the way EOCs assess student performance.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 10:01 PM. Reason : ]

11/16/2010 9:57:39 PM

Quote :

"You are. If they're not doing their work in a timely fashion, they're not learning. Why assign work at all if you believe that it's not essential for mastery? If I shared your views, I'd have free days for the first 17 weeks, then cram for the week before the EOC."

I think maybe it's you who's misunderstanding me. What you said went right along with what I thought you meant. What are my views that you're referring to in that last sentence? I'm curious if maybe you really did misunderstand me, because your examples are way off from what I'm talking about.

I never said that time management skills aren't important - I said it's not something students are required to formally show understanding of in math or science (or just about any other core curriculum). I never said that it doesn't take a certain amount of time to master a curriculum. - I suggested that when discussing mastery in and of itself, the amount of time it takes to achieve mastery is not that important. I never said that you don't have to master some objectives before you can begin to understand another. - That is the biggest pitfall of this policy. If students aren't doing the work and mastering the foundations of the curriculum, it's going to be extremely difficult to help them master the objectives which come later in the curriculum. And I never suggested that assignments aren't essential for mastery. And I disagree that "if they're not doing their work in a timely fashion, they're not learning." The fact is that if they're not doing their work in a timely fashion, they're less likely to master the content in a timely manner in respect to your schedule. If we're talking mastery, it doesn't matter if it takes 3 weeks or 3 months. If the student masters the content, they master the content.


All I actually said or suggested was that I really do not think this policy (allowing students more time to submit work) would teach kids that deadlines don't mean shit. I mean, you're not actually refuting either of the two claims I made. You're arguing against something I never actually said.

Please quote where I said anything that eluded to me having the "view" your example suggested -- I'll save you some time, it doesn't exist.

This dialogue started with me responding to the following statement: "seems like this is going to teach kids that deadlines don't mean shit." What does your "example of my views in practice" have to do with whether or not kids "think deadlines don't mean shit" and whether or not it's a math teacher's job to teach them that type of thing?



If you did zero instruction until the last week of school, I would think you're an irresponsible teacher. Waiting that long to teach the information would be ridiculous. And if you were successful, if you were truly able to get your kids to learn all of that material in just a week, I'd first give you a major pat on the back. Then I'd ask to observe you and find out how the hell you did it. And if it turns out the students only ever needed a week to learn everything with your methods, I'd be pushing for a revamp of that curriculum since a the course is obviously inefficient.

Of course, you and I both know it wouldn't work out - which is why you posted that. But seriously man, please either read more carefully or stop suggesting I'm saying shit that I haven't.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 10:23 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2010 10:02:20 PM

Quote :

"what is the difference between a 30 and a 0?"

Knowing 30% of the material and knowing 0% of the material. To me, this is a significant distinction.

Quote :

"What is the difference between an 84 and an 85 and an 86? Not much at all, except for a teacher's totally arbitrary grading practices."

Again, we're talking rubrics; not grading scales.

Quote :

"The difference between a 3 and a 4 on a legitimately developed systematic rubric? Easy. A 3 is proficient. just like on a EOC. "

Funny you should mention that; EOCs also use 100-point grading scales. A 3 is actually an 82 in Civics, which is proficient.

Quote :

"This is a problem. What do you do with the kids who fail a test? Blame it on the kids and say it's not my job to motivate them? Move on and don't expect the kid to ever master the material? Let kids fail and be fine with it because they are lazy."

I already make class fun and relevant. I get lots of positive feedback. When a kid fails, I offer my help whenever they can stop by. SURPRISE: they usually don't stop by. Zeroes remain, whether they're called I's or F's.

Quote :

"but if i was a good teacher i'd take responsibility for my students learning. and wouldn't let my kids slide by (at least so easily) with 0's and missing assignments. You give them an incomplete and make it clear to them that they will learn. It's my jobs to get my students to learn. and i'm going to make it hard for my students to NOT learn. which is why schools are not getting rid of F's, just making them harder for kids to say "screw school, this assignment, and my teacher. i'm just not going to do anything." Instead, schools are saying, "no, you ARE going to do something." They are saying that they will not get a report card until they do the assignment. Until they show some effort to re-take/re-do/LEARN the material that i am teaching. you call parents. you arrange remediation. you make sure as hell that these kids aren't going to be able to get by without doing assignments. you make it the expectation that ALL students will LEARN."

Half of this is institutionalized by my school: test retakes, remediation, parental contact. The other half, I've got covered. Again-- what does this have to do with grading scales?

Quote :

"Does this cater to students' desires to be lazy and miss deadlines? Probably. Does it cater to student learning though? Absolutely."

Students' laziness and student learning are opposing forces.

Quote :

"I never said that it doesn't take a certain amount of time to master a curriculum. - I suggested that when discussing mastery in and of itself, the amount of time it takes to achieve mastery is not that important."

Sure. In theory. In retrospect we can say "hey, you passed the EOC, so you've mastered the curriculum; don't worry about all that missing homework"

In practice, teachers need to enforce deadlines and assignments in order to ensure learning is occurring. We can't wait until the test to see if our students were being honest with us, and we can't give students the impression that homework isn't essential if they're smart enough, because what percentage of students are able to accurately self-evaluate their mastery?

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 10:21 PM. Reason : ]

11/16/2010 10:13:13 PM

^ I agree 100%. Turning independent practice assignments in on time allows the teacher to better monitor/assess their progress. It also makes sure they're staying on schedule and aren't falling behind in a curriculum that builds on itself.

But again, that doesn't have much to do with my original response to the statement:
"Seems like this is going to teach students that deadlines don't mean shit."

I still do not think it will teach them that deadlines aren't important. Nor do I think that is part of the curriculum. I do think having deadlines for work helps teachers in various way, and that this policy will make things tougher on teachers.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 10:30 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2010 10:26:03 PM

Quote :

"Knowing 30% of the material and knowing 0% of the material. To me, this is a significant distinction. "

if by material you mean your arbitrary grading practices. partial credit, half credit, no credit, credit for what, how rigorous are your tests, how aligned are they to learning standards, etc? on a 100 point scale- as opposed to a systematically developed rubric as prescribed by Marzano and other leading educators- allows a lot less room for arbitrariness. continue to pretend you're tests aren't arbitrary though. it does make teaching a lot easier.

Quote :

"Again, we're talking rubrics; not grading scales."

what?

Quote :

"Funny you should mention that; EOCs also use 100-point grading scales. A 3 is actually an 82 in Civics, which is proficient. "

yep, because the majority of American education is still stuck in the freaking Stone Age with 100 point scales and so that is done for accessibility for district report cards- not out of any necessity. pwnt. when the 100 point scale is done away with in 15 years you will stand corrected.

Quote :

"I already make class fun and relevant. I get lots of positive feedback. When a kid fails, I offer my help whenever they can stop by. SURPRISE: they usually don't stop by. Zeroes remain, whether they're called I's or F's. "

like i said. you let kids fail and are fine with because they are lazy. you make it easy...or easier than it should be...for your kids to fail. if they don't learn, they should fail. but you should make it harder for your kids NOT to learn.

Quote :

"Half of this is institutionalized by my school: test retakes, remediation, parental contact. The other half, I've got covered. Again-- what does this have to do with grading scales?"

what? it has to do with the OP. how I's can encourage students to complete assignments and show mastery, rather than taking the easy way out and getting Fs.

Quote :

"Students' laziness and student learning are opposing forces."

ok Bill O'Reilly. That's overly simplistic.

What a lot of this comes down to is what you think the role of a teacher is. If you've got a lot of smart rich kids you might be fine with saying "Screw the few kids who don't show initiative and turn in their assignments on time." If you teach in an underprivileged school on the other hand where half of the kids are used to a family and even school culture where they are expected to fail, well...you have to change that culture. You have to change expectations for these kids. You have to go balls out to deliver the message to the students that they will not fail. That they will learn. That not doing work is unacceptable. That the focus of the class is not points. Is not an A. Is not "passing a class." The focus of the class is LEARNING (not getting a 93 versus a 90- class competition over points has been proven to be unhealthy for student learning in various studies).The focus must become what the students are doing and learning with the learning goals, because these learning goals are preparing them with 21st century skills to that they can become productive citizens.

Tests should directly reflect this. Report cards should reflect this. EVERY ASSIGNMENT SHOULD REFLECT THIS. A kid gets 33% of the material on a test. WTF does this mean? Take any learning goal for any subject and tell me that a kid got 33% of that learning goal and then try to tell me with a straight face that that makes sense.

"Distinguish between the economic and social issues that led to sectionalism and nationalism." Ok a kid can do this 33 percent of the time? 77 percent of the time? Or maybe a kid can do 87 percent of this? or a kid can do 97 percent of this material?

That doesn't make any effing sense.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 10:43 PM. Reason : ^ and yeah i agree, letting kids be looser with deadlines definitely makes it tougher on the teacher]

11/16/2010 10:42:13 PM

Quote :

"My only qualm with this is the inclusion of numbers and data. You don't think data is important? If you have an increased rate of drop-outs, failures, students performing below grade level, etc., you have to attempt to make a change. Before you can fix those symptoms, you have to understand what is causing them. So you collect data. If you want to then fix those problems, you have to develop and implement a plan to do so. In order to that, and to measure your success, you collect data. I don't know how someone who went to NCSU, a school that is very strong in the sciences, fails to realize the importance of good data. You think Apple collects and uses data? You think MS uses data? Walmart? It's extremely important in business analysis. And that includes the business of education."

The problem with a data focus, is that is isn't used for anything constructive. I'm supposed to organize my class based on data, for a class that hasn't been taught before. My school wants data to prove that literacy is being increased through PE class, not during the health segment.

11/16/2010 11:01:26 PM

the idea of using data to improve instruction is crucial to professional growth as teachers.

unfortunately, it's widely misused.

11/16/2010 11:05:38 PM

Quote :

"The difference between a 3 and a 4 on a legitimately developed systematic rubric? Easy. A 3 is proficient. just like on a EOC. the student mastered the learning objective proficiently. A 4 is the student mastered the learning objective and then made other connections (higher level thinking skills that go beyond what is explicitly taught in class). There is much less room to be arbitrary. "

interesting. i think i see what youre saying

Quote :

"well not with consistency anyways. a student who got a 55 on one teacher's chemistry test might get a 85 on another teacher's even though they have the same curriculum, text book, learning goals, etc. they just have different tests."

and imo..... this is gonna happen throughout life.
do you think it could be beneficial to teach students that certain people (ie employers) will expect more out of them than others? i'm probably not explaining myself very well but i just know that i learned very early on which of my professors were the hardest and learned how to adapt to their teaching style and grading. i have found that to be VERY USEFUL in life. (this is strictly opinion )



oops i copied the wrong thing ahahah

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 11:07 PM. Reason : this is joie btw]

11/16/2010 11:05:43 PM

Quote :

"and imo..... this is gonna happen throughout life. do you think it could be beneficial to teach students that certain people (ie employers) will expect more out of them than others? i'm probably not explaining myself very well but i just know that i learned very early on which of my professors were the hardest and learned how to adapt to their teaching style and grading. i have found that to be VERY USEFUL in life. (this is strictly opinion )"

good point. and i learned that lesson too. it's important to know how to play/manipulate/motivate people by figuring out their desires/expectations/etc without having them explicitly stated. good point.

but the problem though, is like duro has been saying- that's not a learning goal for any course.

11/16/2010 11:16:10 PM

understandable.

11/16/2010 11:21:07 PM

Quote :

"The problem with a data focus, is that is isn't used for anything constructive."

Well, I will say that data being poorly utilized is a waste of time, money, and effort. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is plenty of data being collected in school systems all over the place that is being put to very good use.

Quote :

"I'm supposed to organize my class based on data, for a class that hasn't been taught before. My school wants data to prove that literacy is being increased through PE class, not during the health segment."

I can't really make an informed comment on the first part of that without knowing the details of what they're looking for and how it pertains to whether or not the class has been taught before. But I don't really see why you can't find a way to show that literacy is being improved through PE class. Well, I guess I can understand why it's difficult to provide hard data. But I think there are definitely methods for improving literacy during PE that could be demonstrated.

Out of curiosity, where do you teach?

11/17/2010 12:06:44 AM

I don't see a major problem with letting students do the work outside of deadlines in order to get a passing grade. I don't think it would be fair to let a student miss a large number of deadlines and still get an A, but retaking a few tests or turning in several homework assignments late to get a C isn't that big of a deal.

Not everyone has the same amount of cultural capital. Not everyone has parents that are willing and/or able to help them with their homework. If a 10th grade student is turning in college-level work, does he/she get a 100? What about the 10th grade student turning in 10th grade-level work, does he/she also get a 100? This is the subjective area of grading that is problematic, and until it is addressed (along with a million other problems) there will continue to be inequality in public schools.

Parents play a crucial role in all of this, particularly in the elementary grades. How many kids do you really think can carry out a science project? I think that many can be active participants, but for the most part it's just extra work for the parents.

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 12:50 AM. Reason : l.]

11/17/2010 12:49:42 AM

my former roommates were both middle/high school teachers in orange county.
from what I could gather, it was a huge pain in the ass to give a student a failing grade. they basically had to 'prove' in detail that it was justified to the administration. and even after that, it reflected very negatively on them, never the lazy/dumb student or his terrible parents.
Not to mention they regularly got bitchy phone calls from parents when their precious snowflakes got Bs or Cs, it was signing up for criminal harassment to give a kid a D or F.

11/17/2010 1:00:27 AM

ohmy would fit in very well at some of the schools I used to teach in. It's never a kid's fault if they're a lazy asshole and refuse to do any work in class, it must be the system, or the teachers, or the janitor's fault

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 9:42 AM. Reason : a]

11/17/2010 9:41:46 AM

Quote :

"I don't think it would be fair to let a student miss a large number of deadlines and still get an A, but retaking a few tests or turning in several homework assignments late to get a C isn't that big of a deal."

it goes back to the problem of reinforcing time and again that deadlines are arbitrary and no big deal.

i'm sorry, but if you get out into the real world, and your boss gives you a deadline and the person thinks to themselves "oh well, if i don't get it in, i'll just get it done later" nope not gonna fly.

i've talked to both my brother in law who's a teacher and my sister - who both think this is bullshit and just makes their jobs even harder than they already were.

11/17/2010 9:54:24 AM

duro982: Ok, I get what you're saying. And you're right; getting rid of some deadlines won't encourage kids to believe that the deadlines they *do* have aren't important.

But assignment deadlines are still pretty essential, for the practical reasons I've covered. To not attach any real consequences to deadlines that teachers do choose to assign does teach kids that deadlines aren't important. "Folks, have this assignment into me by Friday. Or not. Whatever makes you happiest."


ohmy: Everything's arbitrary. Have stronger rubrics. Sure, whatever. What does that have to do with a 100 point scale?

11/17/2010 9:59:48 AM

Quote :

"Not everyone has the same amount of cultural capital. Not everyone has parents that are willing and/or able to help them with their homework."

My parents were completely unable to help me with my math and science courses. Did that mean I failed out of high school? No. I had a home environment that encouraged (ie forced) me to do my homework and prepare for school. If I could not, I was encouraged to approach the teacher for additional help. That's what having a good home environment is all about, not your parents being personal tutors.

Quote :

"If a 10th grade student is turning in college-level work, does he/she get a 100? What about the 10th grade student turning in 10th grade-level work, does he/she also get a 100? "

A '100' on 10th grade material means mastery of the material. Same as getting a '4' on the rubric. I would hope college-level work would be able to show mastery of 10th grade material. Are you proposing the kid gets auto credit towards 11th grade? Or even college courses? This makes no sense at all. They show the same mastery of material. Should the college 10th grader get a 5 on the 4 point rubric? How about automatically enrolled in college?

Quote :

"Tests should directly reflect this. Report cards should reflect this. EVERY ASSIGNMENT SHOULD REFLECT THIS. A kid gets 33% of the material on a test. WTF does this mean? Take any learning goal for any subject and tell me that a kid got 33% of that learning goal and then try to tell me with a straight face that that makes sense. "Distinguish between the economic and social issues that led to sectionalism and nationalism." Ok a kid can do this 33 percent of the time? 77 percent of the time? Or maybe a kid can do 87 percent of this? or a kid can do 97 percent of this material? "

You are being blind in your fanaticism. The "percent of material" grade, as you put it, means just that. How much material they have mastered. Or if you like, their progress towards completion of mastery.

You have a project at work. It is 50% complete, as per a Gantt chart or other time line. What does that mean? 50% of the time it is completed, or 50% of the time the company can fulfill requirements on this work? No. 50% of the work has been done, 50% more remains. You are being blind and near trolling.

Even your holy rubrics are open to interpretation of how a student mastered a material.

Quote :

"4 The student will create and defend a hypothesis about what might have happened if specific events that led to World War II had not happened or had happened differently. 3 The student will compare the primary causes for World War II with the primary causes for World War I. 2 The student will describe the primary causes for World War II. 1 The student will recognize isolated facts about World War II."

What if the kid can talk about events that led to WWII, hypothesize about specific events and all (fully meet #4), but can't identify the WWI causes (#3)? Are you going to punish his 'evidence of higher learning'?

The 100 point scale is also combined with the letter system, which I'm sure you're aware, is used for GPA purposes. At the end of the year, your are given a letter grade. This is where you can clearly show the level of mastery. Hell its a damn rubric to describe the 100 point scale.

This rubric for primary grading is just another evidence of turning the schools into a nanny-state, taking away all the teachers powers. Fuck it, grade them in colors. Oh wait, red is a bad color. Gray scale then. Oh wait, racism. Blue to green grade scale. There we go.

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 10:31 AM. Reason : gasd]

11/17/2010 10:30:09 AM

Quote :

"What if the kid can talk about events that led to WWII, hypothesize about specific events and all (fully meet #4), but can't identify the WWI causes (#3)? Are you going to punish his 'evidence of higher learning'? "

#4 requires showing mastery of #3. You can't do 4 without 3. and can't do 2 without 3. etc.

Quote :

"Even your holy rubrics are open to interpretation of how a student mastered a material. "

If you let teachers do whatever the hell they want with rubrics of course they are open to interpretation. Just like if you let them do whatever the hell they want with data. or with their curriculum. or classes. or students.

If, however, teachers are well-trained in how to assess for learning goals (which favors rubrics like i said, instead of a 100 point scale), and then there is accountability, then there is little to no room for interpretation. will crappy teachers interpret things incorrectly? Sure. But if they are trained (just like the scorers for AP tests) and held accountable, then there is consistency (just like AP tests).

Quote :

"You are being blind in your fanaticism. The "percent of material" grade, as you put it, means just that. How much material they have mastered. Or if you like, their progress towards completion of mastery. You have a project at work. It is 50% complete, as per a Gantt chart or other time line. What does that mean? 50% of the time it is completed, or 50% of the time the company can fulfill requirements on this work? No. 50% of the work has been done, 50% more remains. You are being blind and near trolling."

If you are concerned about "covering" material and having your kids rehash facts about material you covered, then sure, use the 100 point scale with percentages.

But if you are teaching learning goals AND ASSESSING STUDENTS ON WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN DO THAT LEARNING GOAL like the examples i've already provided, then it's nearly impossible to align 100 point scales with a learning goal-aligned rubric.

Learning goals are what teachers are supposed to be teaching. If you are a teacher then you know what i'm talking about. If you're not, then you don't and i'm unfortunately not going to explain this to you.

Quote :

"You have a project at work"

This isn't work. It's a lot different. It's learning. We are assessing learning. Not projects.

11/17/2010 10:50:40 AM

Quote :

"ohmy would fit in very well at some of the schools I used to teach in. It's never a kid's fault if they're a lazy asshole and refuse to do any work in class, it must be the system, or the teachers, or the janitor's fault"

haha and you would fit in great with the school i teach in now. and most schools in america. where teachers work from 8-3:30 then go home and dont do crap, because they put in the required hours, and they feel they aren't responsible for what goes in their classroom.

or you can take the job seriously, do everything within reason that you can, to get the kids to learn. not to give them A's, not to pass them, not to make them feel good about themselves. but to get them to learn.

is it the kid's fault? yeah, a lot of it is. and i also think it's teachers' faults for not giving a shit if these kids fail and don't have any motivation. i think teachers should take responsibility for the learning or lack thereof that goes on in their classrooms. call me crazy.

or we could all be like you, and think it's never the teacher's fault and always the kids'. that our job is to just talk about the material the curriculum tells us to talk about. which is the problem with most schools. you have teachers just going through the motions. it's a hell of a lot easier, sure.

and with 30k salaries, maybe that's all you feel like these kids and these districts deserve from you. personally, i think teaching is a really hard job and there should be drastic salary increases to attract talented teachers who actually are going to motivate kids and go all out in their efforts to do so. of course, that would mean firing crappy teachers who think school personnel is not responsible for what goes on in their classrooms.

11/17/2010 10:59:52 AM

Quote :

"you would fit in great with the school i teach in now. and most schools in america. where teachers work from 8-3:30 then go home and dont do crap, because they put in the required hours, and they feel they aren't responsible for what goes in their classroom."

what school do you work at?
nowadays most teachers seem to be more involved with students than ever before.

11/17/2010 11:04:08 AM

Quote :

"This isn't work. It's a lot different."

while i agree that this isn't "work" it is their job to be there.

and back to the point of the thread originally - does allowing students to miss deadlines, not turn in work, conduct themselves in a generally lazy attitude not continue to reinforce bad habits that will hurt them down the road?

you can argue whose fault these failings grades are til you're blue in the face - but this doesn't seem to be a path that will set children up for success in the future.

11/17/2010 11:05:39 AM

Quote :

"If, however, teachers are well-trained in how to assess for learning goals (which favors rubrics like i said, instead of a 100 point scale), and then there is accountability, then there is little to no room for interpretation. will crappy teachers interpret things incorrectly? Sure. But if they are trained (just like the scorers for AP tests) and held accountable, then there is consistency (just like AP tests). "

Quote :

"and i also think it's teachers' faults for not giving a shit if these kids fail and don't have any motivation. i think teachers should take responsibility for the learning or lack thereof that goes on in their classrooms."

Quote :

"of course, that would mean firing crappy teachers who think school personnel is not responsible for what goes on in their classrooms."

So what you're getting at is that there are failing students because of shitty teachers out there. The shitty teachers use the 100 point scale. So its the 100 point scale makes more students fail and lazy. I get it now!

This is like blaming the tool a mechanic uses for breaking your engine. No, its not the tool's fault, its the idiot using it.

And regardless, this topic isn't even in the scope of the original discussion, wtf

11/17/2010 11:17:06 AM

Quote :

"what school do you work at? nowadays most teachers seem to be more involved with students than ever before."

Yeah I'd love to know this too. The amount of man hours most teachers put into their jobs for the amount they get paid is mindboggling. I would like to avoid sending my kids to the school he's teaching in if it's filled with such horrible teachers.

11/17/2010 11:43:32 AM

ohmy's grading scale is what drives me nuts. Yes, we understand. We all want to make grading less objective. The problem is that your "rubric" scale, to me, is very lazy. In your example, you have 4 binary items to check for. No offense, but there are lots of lazy teachers who would love nothing more than this terrible design. "Let's see . . . Johnny correctly identified the causes for WWII, but then used to to describe why Pokemon is superior to Digimon. Well, I guess that's fine since it technically meets this scale. CHECK." I can just see them scanning papers now for basic key points regardless of actual content. You are severely mistaken if you think all teachers care, and now you've given them more reason to care less.

And you complained about the difference between a 84 and 85, but what about the difference between students who all got 3's? Surely some of them wrote better or worse than others. Surely some were close to a 4 and some just barely got out of 2. Where is the difference there? Reminds me of the lazy Sophomore writing exam where the lazy graders just gave everyone 2s (failing). Then people complained, so the next year they just gave everyone 3's. Lazy.

And how about those who hit topics in scale 4, but don't hit everything in 2 or 3? Lazy grading system is lazy.

Here is what a lot of my teachers did in English. They had a very similar 4-5 tier scale to your rubric. They then designated each section a certain number of points. They then showed you how many points you got for each section with comments on why points were removed. Its the same basic thing, but with more precision. Tell me, why do you hate precision?

------------

And how will this even work for anything outside of papers? Are we to assume all math problems must have only 4 steps?

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 1:25 PM. Reason : ]

11/17/2010 1:24:10 PM

Quote :

"Here is what a lot of my teachers did in English. They had a very similar 4-5 tier scale to your rubric. They then designated each section a certain number of points. They then showed you how many points you got for each section with comments on why points were removed. Its the same basic thing, but with more precision. Tell me, why do you hate precision?"

i like this.

PRECISION IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANT. and objectivity. without being arbitrary. something that is directly aligned to learning goals.

obviously you have a 4-5 tier scale rubric. each of those tiers is a different learning goal (or learning goal broken down into different parts! with comments on how to improve!

11/17/2010 1:41:14 PM

Quote :

"And how will this even work for anything outside of papers? Are we to assume all math problems must have only 4 steps?"

Good point. "All calculations must have 4 decimal points precision to get a 5." Not really sure how this rubric would work for chemistry class or anatomy class either.

11/17/2010 1:56:22 PM

so i thoguht i understood the rubric and now after hearing ^ and ^^^ i dont think i do

11/17/2010 2:13:38 PM

If you took the AP English exam the rubric is basically the same thing as the scale used to grade that.

Really there's absolutely no reason you couldn't use a rubric system for grading papers in an English class and then give the students a letter grade. But this seems to only really work for subjective things like papers and projects. I don't really know how you would apply this rubric to say, a vocab quiz or a math exam.

11/17/2010 2:22:15 PM

everything i am espousing is a part of standards-based grading, which is going to be the norm soon enough.

there's not a lot of free info about it via google. most of the stuff i've used has been in published education journals, books, etc that i've bought or been given in professional development meetings.

the following link explains a lot though and even gives examples of how he applies standards-based grading in his math and science classrooms.
http://101studiostreet.com/wordpress/?page_id=114

you'll notice he does use percentages, but his percentages come from a ten point scale. not a 100 point scale. again, closer to what i've been promoting than to a 100 point scale.

here is a powerpoint which sums up the benefits of standards-based grading and how it promotes student learning more than the 100 point scale and traditional grading does.

http://schoolweb.psdschools.org/preston/psd101.pps

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 4:28 PM. Reason : ]

11/17/2010 4:27:35 PM

^ where does my original point about letting kids fail come into your argument?

11/17/2010 4:34:24 PM

Quote :

"you'll notice he does use percentages, but his percentages come from a ten point scale. not a 100 point scale. again, closer to what i've been promoting than to a 100 point scale."

now, it all becomes clear. you have a vendetta against the number 100.

11/17/2010 4:40:09 PM

I prefer to grade my students on a scale from 0.01 to 0.

11/17/2010 5:44:20 PM

^^obviously you read none of the links i posted. i know you are joking, but you are also showing your ignorance.

i would hate a scale of 55 to 155 too. or -33 to 34675. because there is no way that that wide variety of points can accurately assess a students learning. 100 different points to assess "2.01 Analyze velocity as a rate of change of position: * Average velocity. * Instantaneous velocity."?

Give me a break.

it has nothing to do with the numbers. it has to do with the fact that teachers arbitrarily create a range of point values and then assign kids grades based on what that teacher determined the students' understanding to be. the idea that you can make a test and come up with how many points a question is worth (completely arbitrary) and then assign how much you want each part of the question to be worth if you do partial credit (completely arbitrary) is ridiculous when at the end of the semester these numbers you made up are supposed to accurately reflect a students' understanding of learning goals.

there is much less room when a rigorous standards-based approach is applied like in the link i posted.

again

Quote :

"Studies have demonstrated that when teachers design their own assessments and assign points to the items in those assessments, students can obtain very different total scores from teacher to teacher simply because the teachers weight items differently (see Marzano, 2002). For example, Haponstall (2009) described a study in which 557 teachers all graded one paper using the 100-point scale. While the majority of the scores were between 59 and 73, scores ranged from 38 to 91 (pp. 27–28)."

when teachers across the U.S. are required to use SBG in 10 years, I can tell you I tried to inform you.

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM. Reason : ]

11/17/2010 6:09:37 PM

Quote :

"^^obviously you read none of the links i posted. i know you are joking, but you are also showing your ignorance."

No, actually I did. Mr. Cornally seems like a very passionate, intelligent dude. Grading by concept seems great. Reassessment might instill laziness, but I can see the advantages.

Still, I don't quite see how that relates to 100 being bad. I also didn't see where Mr. Cornally thought a 6/10 was the same as a 0/10 (or whatever the hell you want to call it).

Quote :

"when teachers across the U.S. are required to use SBG in 10 years, I can tell you I tried to inform you."

I don't care how good the concept is. This is wishful thinking.

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 6:36 PM. Reason : asdfsdf]

11/17/2010 6:36:04 PM

Quote :

"when teachers across the U.S. are required to use SBG in 10 years, I can tell you I tried to inform you."

Infrastructure-wise, there's no way on earth this is happening. From what I've heard we're just about to get NCWise compatible with IE7 over Christmas break. What are the chances that we'll be using a new system capable of dealing with an entirely new grading paradigm within a decade?

11/17/2010 7:08:59 PM

Just wanted to post this:

Quote :

"After turning this in, I went online to check my grades. Instead of seeing the usual, [x] amount of points out of 100 points possible, I had three different grades. Each represented a different logic that went into the program. For example my grades were: For Loops – 8.5/10. Grade – B. _SESSION – 10/10. Grade – A. Arrays – 7/10. Grade – C- (ouch)."

8.5/10? If he's using half points, that means there are at least 20 possible grades. 100 is too precise but 20 is fine? Really?

11/17/2010 7:11:42 PM

you are still missing the point, tits.

not too precise. too arbitrary. 80>0.

it's actually about being more precise, about precisely aligning grading practices to learning.

i use half points in my 4 point rubric grading btw.

anyways, boone and tits, yeah i may have hyperbolized about everyone being required to do SBG within 10 years, but I can tell you guys are finally warming up to the idea. so i will rest my case.

Or i might go home and copy and paste excerpts from Marzano's book which will further convince you instantly. but that will take a lot of time. so probably not.

and ncwise sucks so bad. i definitely don't think that will be in place- at least in the way we know it- in ten years. i use snapgrades.net which allows for SBG. of course- and unfortunately- i have to translate it into 100 point scales for report cards- but all progress reports are sent home through SBG-based snapgrades.com reports.

11/17/2010 7:18:13 PM

Quote :

"And you complained about the difference between a 84 and 85, but what about the difference between students who all got 3's? Surely some of them wrote better or worse than others. Surely some were close to a 4 and some just barely got out of 2. Where is the difference there?"

can you explain this?

im having a really hard time grasping it.

11/17/2010 7:30:44 PM

If we're going to dwell on standards based grading-- here's my beef: It's just Marzano's taxonomy applied to a four point scale. The stupid part is that a "1" is always "know all the material" and a "4" is "evaluate the material"

...derp.

What sort of students are these people working with where "know all the material" is the bottom rung of their grading scale?

11/17/2010 7:38:46 PM

^^me? explain the answer?

or the poster explain the question?

if you're asking me...

you have to change the paradigm of grading first. how is it used? in SBG it is used to assess how a student did on a learning goal...so for example there can be a lot of learning goals assessed in a single paper. so they get different grades for all of the learning goals. and those grades have to be separate so that it is clear to the student and parent what that student understands...so instead of big 87s, 94s, and 56s scribbled across students' papers, you have a big rubric where learning goal 1.02, 1.04 is assessed, etc.

^that's just wrong. at least it's not at all what is explained in Marzano's Formative Assessment and SBG book.
or, of course, many learning goals can be broken down into simpler components (using blooms, or multiple steps to the learning goal, etc). so u can give separate scores for those, then average them.

again you are assessing them on if they can do the processes described in the learning goals or not. so there is no need for 100 different points to use when grading since you are not looking for all this extra stuff that teachers arbitrarily look for when grading on a 100 point scale.

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 7:42 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on November 17, 2010 at 7:43 PM. Reason : ]

11/17/2010 7:41:33 PM

So... what's the difference between 1 2 3 4 on a rubric and D C B A? Or is it just that we don't like the idea that two people with the same level of "mastery" can still be different? I get that you want more specific goals, but as Boone points out, this has nothing at all to do with whether you grade them 1-5, 1-100, F-A or Glorstaphs to Plhanges, nor does having standardized rubrics preclude the use of any arbitrary scale.

11/17/2010 7:44:38 PM