"Hey baby, I defended your honor on the internet today. How bout some anal to show your gratitude."

2/18/2011 4:33:02 PM

techers aren't overpaid but their unions certainly block progress in fixing issues with failing schools and failing teachers.

2/18/2011 4:33:03 PM

Anybody that thinks unions are somehow the answer to having better teachers is crazy. They help drive up the salaries but do nothing for improving the quality since they make it all but impossible to fire someone. I'm all for raising salaries if they can find a way to measure and get rid of shitty teachers.

2/18/2011 4:36:26 PM

http://online.northcarolina.edu/program.php?id=304

Is to what I was referring. A lot of teachers get this and say they have a "graduate degree".

If your girlfriend has something other than a teaching masters, then, by all means, it is legit; otherwise, if it is something like this, it might as well be an ITT tech associates.

2/18/2011 4:40:14 PM

Quote :

"I can testify that 95% of those who went into teach during undergrad did so because they didn't cut it in another field"

I too can make up numbers on the fly and present them as fact.

2/18/2011 4:42:41 PM

Quote :

"My mom had 30+ years and wasn't making that in NC when she retired (no grad degree of course, but not many teachers her age had those)."

While that may be true, depending on when she retired, today a teacher in NC with a Bachelors and 30 years experience would make right at $50k (not including any supplement).

Quote :

"Certified Educator Salary Schedules include teachers, certified instructional support and school based administrators. All certified educators working in Local Education Agencies (LEA) are required to be paid from the legislated salary schedule. This schedule is approved annually by the general assembly and sets a minimum pay based on the educators years of experience and education level. As a supplement to these monthly amounts, a LEA may approve additional funds to the educator to account for variances such as geographic location, market conditions or school demographics."

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/fbs/finance/salary/

Quote :

"Therefore, a large amount of those who do teach do so because it wasn't their passion, and, simultaneously, the low salary prevents those who may desire to teach, yet are pragmatic about supporting families, from doing so."

Even at 0 years experience the base salary is $30k for '00-11 (again without factoring supplements). My wife has a BS in Biological Sciences and applied for a few teaching positions because the salary was comparable to other jobs in her field, even with 2 months vacation built-in. She didn't get the job despite being passionate about teaching (she worked for a daycare/school and got some state certification while in school, she TA'd multiple classes/problem sessions, etc).

I'm not arguing that they are overpaid by any means, but I have trouble swallowing just how grossly underpaid they are given my personal experience.

Just for reference:

Quote :

"Salary Baccalaureate [biological sciences] - $ 30,850"

http://www.ncsu.edu/majors-careers/do_with_major_in/showmajor.php?id=80#salary

Quote :

"Bachelor's Teacher Annual Salary (10 months) [0-2 yrs experience] $30,430 (again not including any supplements)"

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2010-11schedules.pdf

2/18/2011 4:42:44 PM

Quote :

"I too can make up numbers on the fly and present them as fact."

while my commentary is anecdotal, such evidence does have a place in discussion. Out of all the teachers I know, only two became teachers because it is what they really wanted to do. One of those bounced after two years and chose to be unemployed rather than going back.

I suppose you could have just said you disagreed, but, then again, you have no evidence to the contrary and it would not have gathered you the response you desired.

2/18/2011 4:53:00 PM

Quote :

"Hey baby, I defended your honor on the internet today. How bout some anal to show your gratitude."

I don't believe I'll ever be getting anal...also never requested it...but that's another topic altogether.


I guess now that I'm old enough to really look at it from the teacher's perspective, it's really starting to bother me. Growing up and watching my mom work really hard for peanuts was tough, but seeing it first hand at an older age is getting frustrating. My gf has to be at work every day by 7am, and it's rare that she's out by 4:30. And she probably brings work home 2 or 3 days out of the week.

She might have it extra tough because she's dealing with special needs...but she works harder than 90% of the people I know in various other careers. She's looking for jobs in other school districts, but she's really distraught over changing careers because she really likes teaching kids, just is having a hard time putting up with the rest of the bull shit and not being able to save any money. She doesn't need to make much, just enough to where she doesn't have to take a second job to not dip into her savings. I'm sympathetic to her complaints about work...but I've been trying to steer her into other careers most of the time.

Not much to ask for IMO.

2/18/2011 4:53:14 PM

Has anyone mentioned how that hole got blown in the deficit yet?

Walker's first move in office was to start giving out tax breaks for businesses, to the tune of the exact amount of the shortfall.

And now he's making the unions that DIDNT support him (b/c the police and firefighers get excluded, and they were the only ones to support him) pay for it.

But then he goes beyond the cuts (which, in all seriousness, are pretty normal right now and probably would have gone through alone) and basically guts their rights at work and makes it harder for them to stay intact as organizations...which happen to be the only groups which come close to putting up the organizational leadership necessary to beat groups like the Chamber of Commerce and the money they spend to get people like Walker elected.

That's the real story here.

2/18/2011 4:58:42 PM

Quote :

"while my commentary is anecdotal, such evidence does have a place in discussion."

You're a douche.

2/18/2011 5:01:51 PM

Quote :

"The bill he introduced was a measure to balance this year's budget only which is what the 137 million relates too. Im not going to argue that they don't need to do something about it though"

Yes, I'm sure he only cares about this year's budget shortfall of 140million and doesn't give a fuck at all about the looming deficit of 3billion. yeah, that makes sense

2/18/2011 5:03:54 PM

Worked for clinton.

2/18/2011 5:04:48 PM

Quote :

"Teachers show up at 8:30, leave by 3. Mark for about 45 mins (claim its 3 hours). They on average have 180 days off a year. "

Shit I wish my teaching job had been like that. I usually got to work at 8am and stayed until after 6pm. And then there was the grading I took home most nights/weekends.

2/18/2011 5:06:41 PM

^^^thats all the current emergency budget bill is meant to address

2/18/2011 5:19:18 PM

and I'm sure that nothing in that bill is supposed to talk about the future, either

2/18/2011 5:27:57 PM

Rather than everyone assuming what the bill does and does not say they could read the bill themselves

2/18/2011 5:35:16 PM

Are you bringing up Japan shit in a Wisconsin thread?

2/18/2011 5:38:39 PM

My mom taught 32 years and every day she got there at 7:15 and was not allowed to leave before 3:15 ("5th period" where teachers had to stay after in case students wanted to talk to them about something).

This was annoying to me before I could drive, because I had to wait for a half hour at the school every day.


Then, if you're a male teacher there's huge pressure on you to coach (at least at my school which was too small for full time coaches), for which you get paid a stipend that's pitiful considering how much time you have to put into it.

2/18/2011 5:43:22 PM

I've never understood how people stood for these unions and walk outs/ strikes. I've never had a job where you could just not show up and keep your job, so how does anyone get to do that? If they don't want to teach, drive trucks, fly planes, drive trains, play sports, whatever involves a unions, go grab one of the millions of people that are out of work, put them in training, and pay them. Fire the walk outs.
end random thought

2/18/2011 5:59:59 PM

^ It sounds like you didn't pay attention in middle school social studies class. All of your questions were answered then.

2/18/2011 6:05:53 PM

no, they really weren't. There is a place for unions, but many of that stuff is long gone. These teachers effectively called a strike, and got paid for it with public money. There is no fucking excuse for that. and why did they strike? because they were being asked to actually *gasp* pay into their own retirement and healthcare funds. what a TERRIBLE thing. The loss of their collective bargaining power was due to their own inflexibility on things that every other private sector employee has to due. fuck those teachers

2/18/2011 6:30:57 PM

I can support, but not like, private unions...but not public ones. Hell even FDR was opposed to public unions.

My reason for such is that in a private union the workers are basically negotiating with the owners or whoever directly pays the bill.

In a public union, the workers are negociating with someone is using OPM. And as we have seen, the unions elect their own guy who then rewards the union with taxpayer dollars and benefits that cant be paid for. As we are seeing.

This is a great step we are seeing in Wisconsin. The unions complaining about contributing to their own retirement and health insurance is coming off petty. Teachers walking off jobs, comes across as putting yourself before the kids and dishonest bc you are lying about being absent. (qualities most parents WANT around their kids)

People in the private sector just cant relate. Not only are they seeing their wages reduced or jobs terminated, they are also having to contribute more to their own retirement and health insurance. Sometimes ALL of it.

I think ending the cycle of elected officials rewarding the unions for getting them elected with OPM has got to stop. It is wrong when it happens to businesses(though its usually their own money they keep) and it is wrong when it happens to unions. This bill would tie their raises to inflation and if they wanted a bigger raise then they would have to ask the people who pay for it... the taxpayers through voting. Amazing huh. I cant ask my representative to force my boss to pay me more, can you?

It is time for these teachers to learn math, look at the numbers, and grow up. It is time for the democrats to stop playing hide and seek and do their job they were elected to do. Its time to treat these problems as real and start working to fix them.

2/18/2011 8:08:32 PM

2/18/2011 8:11:33 PM

And for their pay:

"The average salary for an MPS teacher is $56,500. When fringe benefits are factored in, the annual compensation will be $100,005 in 2011."

http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/average-mps-teacher-compensation-tops-100kyear/

2/18/2011 8:16:50 PM

Teachers are paid more then fair. Teachers in North Carolina earn an average salary of $48,648 - work an average of 7 hours a day and have 180 days off a year.

Its a sweet ass gig, the unions can go fuck themselves.

2/18/2011 8:21:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bpb9DymmoU&feature=related

2/18/2011 8:33:46 PM

^nice.

9 months of work. And why are private schools getting better results and being paid less? hmm

2/18/2011 8:42:19 PM

lol pile the fuck on

for every skating teacher who couldn't get a job doing what they wanted, there are teachers who go full throttle and work well after 5pm and care about their students and inspire their students who go on to do great things

but yes, pile the fuck on... group them all in unions and make a whole butter battle out of them

when it's time to value heroes, we'll dole out accolades to the fella who died at 19 in a war, but never mention someone who gave their entire life educating slews and slews of folk who go on to do varied astounding work

america is built by many hands using many methods... we've won many a right without fighting some people in another uniform or going to foreign lands

do not group teachers in as a whole... like many issue regarding education, it's not a party issue

but whatever, it's already been decided in this thread to take wisconsin and merge it with north carolina

it's obvious that in north carolina we've already run off textiles, furniture and tobacco...might as well finish running off education as well

2/18/2011 9:03:18 PM

the NC gov't is doing a far better job of running off teachers than people bitching about the unfair power of public unions does. Yes, teaching is a thankless job, but I don't think it's too much to ask that people pay into their own retirement fund

2/18/2011 9:06:41 PM

do you feel like you are successful?

2/18/2011 9:11:02 PM

[insert ironic random picture here]

I HAVE NO RESPONSE.

[Edited on February 18, 2011 at 11:47 PM. Reason : BECAUSE IT'S ALL I HAVE.]

2/18/2011 9:24:14 PM

Quote :

"for every skating teacher who couldn't get a job doing what they wanted, there are teachers who go full throttle and work well after 5pm and care about their students and inspire their students who go on to do great things "

And I bet they dont want to be paid the same wages as the one that skates. Or be made to pay dues, whether you support the union or not.

No one is arguing against teachers, it is the public union mindset that people are rebelling about.

Quote :

" "

LOL, nice.

Marko, in your opinion why do you think textiles and furniture are no longer in NC? seriously.

[Edited on February 18, 2011 at 10:19 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 12:00 AM. Reason : !]

2/18/2011 10:18:07 PM

Quote :

"Yes, teaching is a thankless job, but I don't think it's too much to ask that people pay into their own retirement fund"

I guess it just generally sounds worse to say "I don't think it's too much to ask that public employees take a compensation cut" than to state it the way you did.

2/18/2011 10:25:11 PM

I pay into my own retirement. There arent many private sector jobs that even offer pensions anymore. The public sector needs to follow this lead.

^I ask if they dont want to fund their own retirements, why the hell should anyone else be interested.... or FORCED. Which is what they want.

So now you will have LESS to invest in your own retirement so they can continue to not fund their own pension plan. Makes sense.

2/18/2011 10:29:29 PM

Quote :

"There arent many private sector jobs that even offer pensions anymore."

But many of them contribute handsomely to a 401k. My last employer matched at 1:1 up to 5%. We just hired a guy at work and his last company basically deposited 10% a year without requiring a match. The only difference in a pension and 401k is one of them basically doesn't have a defined payout because of the uncertainty of death...and this is where acturial tables come in and more or less keep the plans solvent. The reason pensions are now in the crosshairs regarding their solvency is because the bubble years and the idiot economists and their models that got it all wrong.

Quote :

"I pay into my own retirement."

No, you take a portion of whatever you make as income and put it in a seperate place. What difference is it if you take unallocated compensation and allocate it yourself or you work for an employer that as part of your compensation he allocates it for you?

Quote :

"So now you will have LESS to invest in your own retirement so they can continue to not fund their own pension plan. Makes sense"

Not to belabor the point, but fine, lets make them contribute more but we'll just pay them more in salary to make up for it so that it isn't a cut to their compensation. Of course, that doesn't sit well with you either, and if thats the case, then why waste the time to frame the argument like you're doing in the first place?

2/18/2011 10:40:01 PM

so now, having people pay part of their own retirement is a "compensation cut?" well, that's news to me... How dare they have to actually fund their own retirement!

2/18/2011 11:01:34 PM

You're being extra stupid tonight. Above and beyond your typical mongoloid self.

2/18/2011 11:08:27 PM

Retirement benefits are a part of a teacher's compensation. If they cut part of them and make the teachers pay from their own salary, then yes.

How can it be this difficult for you to understand?

[Edited on February 18, 2011 at 11:16 PM. Reason : ]

2/18/2011 11:15:39 PM

It's standard Republican fare...twist the language to make a situation look drastically worse, then argue against the language. It's kinda like a strawman, but not exactly.

2/18/2011 11:26:42 PM

i'm glad you guys decided to go back to targeting other things than yelling about "teachers" in a blanket term

[insert ironic random picture here]

Quote :

"Marko, in your opinion why do you think textiles and furniture are no longer in NC? seriously."

because they went overseas

you needed to ask me that?

an optometrist arguing with a cartoonist... honestly....

[Edited on February 18, 2011 at 11:52 PM. Reason : +]

2/18/2011 11:47:04 PM

Y'all realize that ggmon was just trolling you right?

trolling who?

who trolls who?

[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 3:03 AM. Reason : it's the internet.]

2/19/2011 12:34:46 AM

Quote :

"^any teacher that believes they are truly underpaid should prove it by getting a higher paying job in the private sector imo. you know, supply and demand and all that shit."

this.

you knew what it paid when you went into it, you work 9 months a year --- and now you want more pay because you're stuck in a profession with a capped salary? (and, again, you knew all this going in)

go fuck yourself.

you made the choice, now deal with it or try to market your services elsewhere. the "noble profession" argument gets no sympathy from me.


[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 6:15 AM. Reason : .]

2/19/2011 6:10:01 AM

Quote :

"But many of them contribute handsomely to a 401k. My last employer matched at 1:1 up to 5%. We just hired a guy at work and his last company basically deposited 10% a year without requiring a match. The only difference in a pension and 401k is one of them basically doesn't have a defined payout because of the uncertainty of death...and this is where acturial tables come in and more or less keep the plans solvent. The reason pensions are now in the crosshairs regarding their solvency is because the bubble years and the idiot economists and their models that got it all wrong. "

Exactly. It limits the obligation to the employer. Once the employment is terminated so is the liablity. It is fixed and controlled. You failed to mention that when the recession hit a lot of companies stopped doing 401k matches bc they couldnt afford it.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/learn-how-to-invest/will-401k-matches-make-a-comeback.aspx

Now they are starting to refund them, now that the money is there.

You also seem to forget that one can contribute to their own IRA, and should, with after tax dollars to fund their own retirement.

Chance you also seem to miss where they are trying to limit the amount of increase in salary they earn too. Or at least let the payers of the salary vote on the raises.

Andy a lot of people's salaries, benefits, and JOBS were cut. These states have to balance their budgets. If there isnt any money, asking them to help fund their own retirement isnt too much to ask. They keep asking for others to help them, but seem unwilling to do anything to contribute themselves.

Marko, nice working using your admin powers to measure my eyes. I'm glad to see you still have your talent of [being an expert in my field]. They are the window to the soul.

Oh and I asked you WHY we lost them, not where did they go. We even stayed up whistling and calling their name all night. But they just didn't come home. You shouldnt feel that just because your parents were a primary educator/principal teaching everything from everything from gifted ed. to ESL, while you yourself work at a university, you shouldnt have an opinion. They're like assholes. Smooth, silky and nice to smell. I myself have one.

Any changes you would like to make El Salvador? I can't stop this feeling anymore. I forgotten just what I'm fighting for.

[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 9:48 AM. Reason : lol i'm sorry... i did leave the apostophes out of your nt's like you wrote them, tho]

2/19/2011 7:01:36 AM

swell

2/19/2011 10:11:44 AM

the guy on the right is like meeeeooowwww hissssss

2/19/2011 10:14:09 AM

Everyone arguing about teacher pay ITT should know that it is IRRELEVANT in the context of what's going on in Wisconsin. They are protesting because the bill takes away their right to collectively bargain.

2/19/2011 10:40:47 AM

Come on. It isn't irrelevant. That is but one thing the bill does. Do you really thing he teachers are going to be like "yeah, we'll take the pay cut, just so long as we can negotiate"?

2/19/2011 10:46:52 AM

I'm not really sure why you should get "bargaining rights" to other people's money.

[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 11:03 AM. Reason : ]

2/19/2011 11:01:29 AM

THE EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION SHOULD BE PRIVATE ONLY. FUCK THIS USAGE OF OTHER PEOPLES' MONEY!!!!!!

2/19/2011 11:10:58 AM

private and not compulsory

its so much easier to control a populace when they are uneducated rubes that don't understand how the tide works or know how many moons Mars has

2/19/2011 11:12:37 AM