^^ they get assaulted at home? that's because they aren't wearing their burqas at home... that'll teach them a lesson! they should keep their burqas on even at home, lest their husbands become tempted to assault them after seeing them burqa-less!

in all seriousness though, i doubt any statistics exist on this issue. you can't take numbers from a muslim/arab country and compare them to the rape numbers in the US, as the cultures are different and base line rape values are inherently different.

one would have to look at the rape rate of covered women vs uncovered women in the same country (US or UK or France or Germany or Lebanon) and one would also need to take a large enough sample.

as i said, i doubt anybody has studied that, as such a study by nature would be quite scandalous.

[Edited on May 8, 2011 at 11:19 AM. Reason : ]

5/8/2011 11:17:30 AM

Rapes happen all the time in those places they make women wear those big black sheets.

5/8/2011 11:30:20 AM

TOO MUCH TALKING, NOT ENOUGH RAPING

5/8/2011 11:36:16 AM

if women can't show their faces or drive a car what makes you think anyone is going to listen if they try to report a rape?

shit, reporting a rape in some parts of the world might get you stoned to death for "adultery"

let's not defend this burka-derp

5/8/2011 11:57:45 AM

Aww, jeez, I hate the Internet.

Now I feel guilty and screwed up for calling somebody stupid.

FuhCtious, I'd like to apologize for being rude to you. You and I just have a difference of opinion, and I should not have called you stupid. My bad. I hope you can forgive me.

5/8/2011 2:53:21 PM

No worries...just come over here and give me some sugar and we'll call it even. You revealed so much of yourself emotionally that I can't resist. If you had been more reserved, I probably could have...but I guess you were asking for it.

5/8/2011 3:25:43 PM

I'm not sure what goes on inside a rapist's mind, so I can't say how they choose their victims. It's at least plausible that a female showing more skin is more likely to get raped, and thus a female may make a rational decision to show less skin. Appearances do affect outcomes, but I can't say how and to what extent.

There are so many fucked up things going on in the world today. Many of those things are worth fighting against or educating people on. The remarks of a Toronto police officer are trivial in comparison.

5/8/2011 4:14:10 PM

Quote :

"Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work"

Appearance has been a signal for sexual selection amongst primates for millenia. Humans have the unique ability to manipulate their appearance in ways no other animal can.

Sexual assault is never, ever, justified and credible accusations should be pursued to the full extent of the law. However, this doesn't seem to be about that. This seems to be a group of people demanding that society shift its resources to protect their right to advertise their promiscuity. That seems asinine.

First rule of not attracting unwanted attention from sociopaths (of any stripe, not just sexual predators) is to not draw attention to your self at all.


But whatever, SlutWalk away . . . we all know that some people learn early on that the only way they'll ever get attention is by being offended every chance they get. Good for them.

5/8/2011 4:48:39 PM

Prove it. Cause that's something you can't just say. You can't tell people that being exceptional will increase their chances of attracting a sociopath...that by being exceptional, by standing out, they are breaking the "first rule of not attracting unwanted attention from sociopaths."

As far as I know, there is no evidence to support the idea that sociopaths are attracted to people who stand out. In fact, the little I have read suggests the opposite. But you're pretty confident about your "rules to not attracting attention from sociopaths," so you must know something we don't know. Share it with us. Also, please share the literature that's specific to sexual predators, as well. We're gonna crack this mystery together, y'all!

5/8/2011 7:06:18 PM

bottom line, you wear a skirt so short ya need two hairstyles......

5/8/2011 7:19:35 PM

Don't want to get pulled over? Don't drive a nice car while black.

Simple advice right? If you're black, don't drive a nice car. What could be wrong with giving good advice like that?

5/8/2011 7:25:47 PM

skin color is not a choice, dressing like a whore is.

5/8/2011 7:27:49 PM

I didn't say skin color was a choice.

Driving a nice car is a choice, just like dressing provocatively.

If females shouldn't dress provocatively, black people shouldn't drive nice cars. Right?

5/8/2011 7:29:42 PM

yes - cause the only black folks who get pulled over and wrongfully treated are those who have a 50+ dollar car.

Dress with class, get treated with class. Dressing like a whore is a choice.

5/8/2011 7:36:10 PM

yes - cause the only women who get raped and assaulted are those who are dressed like prostitutes

5/8/2011 7:37:27 PM

Quote :

"Prove it. Cause that's something you can't just say. You can't tell people that being exceptional will increase their chances of attracting a sociopath...that by being exceptional, by standing out, they are breaking the "first rule of not attracting unwanted attention from sociopaths." As far as I know, there is no evidence to support the idea that sociopaths are attracted to people who stand out. In fact, the little I have read suggests the opposite. But you're pretty confident about your "rules to not attracting attention from sociopaths," so you must know something we don't know. Share it with us. Also, please share the literature that's specific to sexual predators, as well. We're gonna crack this mystery together, y'all!"

Like I said, I don't know what goes on in a rapist's mind. I would think that rapists are more likely to go after someone that they are sexually attracted to. All things equal, I'm more likely to check out a girl with skin exposed than a girl with a bunch of layers, and I suspect that this is also the case with many other men. It's yet another reason that summer is superior to winter.

This is in no way implying that women should not "express themselves" or whatever. My point is that it may be possible to reduce risk by dressing (or not dressing) in a certain way. In a perfect world, that wouldn't be true, and no one would get raped, but I'm speaking of reality.

5/8/2011 8:07:05 PM

bad words are so bad

who cares if someone calls you a slut

reserve complaint for when someone treats you like a slut

5/8/2011 8:09:49 PM

:fwfwfwfwfwfwfw

5/8/2011 8:09:52 PM

Quote :

"Cause that's something you can't just say. You can't tell people that being exceptional will increase their chances of attracting a sociopath"

First rule. Not only. I don't think I have to prove that calling attention to yourself will call attention to yourself from a greater percentage of the population.

Quote :

"Don't want to get pulled over? Don't drive a nice car while black."

False analogy. One should reasonably expect the state to be impartial in it's enforcement of the law. One cannot realistically expect (nor, as the SCOTUS has adjudicated, does the state have the obligation to provide) 100% security from the state at all times.


SlutWalk seems to imply that women who are dressed provocatively are going to be picked up by the police whose response is "well, obviously the slut deserved it". If anything needs evidence, it is this assertion.

5/8/2011 11:31:59 PM

I'm not saying it's justified in any way but I don't see how one can argue that a provocatively-dressed woman isn't more likely to be the victim of sexual assault. That's like me saying I shouldn't have a higher probability of injury just because I drive a motorcycle every day. I make my choices, I'm aware of the risks, and I behave accordingly.

Now if the only argument here is that a rapist should be granted leniency because the girl was showing off some leg, then of course that's absurd

5/9/2011 12:55:08 AM

Quote :

"JCASHFAN: First rule. Not only. I don't think I have to prove that calling attention to yourself will call attention to yourself from a greater percentage of the population."

Of course not. However, you do have to prove that "sociopaths (of any stripe, not just sexual predators)" are inclined to give "unwanted attention" to people who draw attention to themselves.

I'm just saying...I've heard a lot of things about sociopaths...but I've never heard that they like to prey on exceptional people. DON'T BE TOO FUNNY AND LAUGH TOO HARD! A SOCIOPATH MIGHT GETCHA!

Quote :

"d357r0y3r: Like I said, I don't know what goes on in a rapist's mind. I would think that rapists are more likely to go after someone that they are sexually attracted to. All things equal, I'm more likely to check out a girl with skin exposed than a girl with a bunch of layers, and I suspect that this is also the case with many other men. It's yet another reason that summer is superior to winter. This is in no way implying that women should not "express themselves" or whatever. My point is that it may be possible to reduce risk by dressing (or not dressing) in a certain way. In a perfect world, that wouldn't be true, and no one would get raped, but I'm speaking of reality."

?

I was responding to JCASHFAN, not you.

I specifically did not respond to your post because you seemed to have missed the silly article I posted on the first page:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200812/marked-mayhem?page=2

I barely even searched, and that's what popped up. Of course, I don't trust Psychology Today to totally fill me in on the mind of rapist, but it's a little more compelling than a bunch of non-raping dudes on TWW, being like: If I was gonna rape a chick, I'd rape a bitch that was attractive... And then putting themselves in the position to decide what's attractive to a rapist.

When women get their sexy dress on, they tend to do it numbers. By y'all's logic, there's a rapist out there who is like, "OMG, I DON'T KNOW WHO TO RAPE FIRST! THERE'S SO MUCH TITTY AND ASS TO RAPE TONIGHT!" In reality, rapists are attracted to victims who won't fight, tell, or be trusted by others: the disabled, the elderly, children, sex workers, women who are alone, women who are made vulnerable by drugs/alcohol/temporary activities, etc... You guys are looking inwardly to describe what a rapist would think and do. But you're not rapists...so why would you apply your own thought process to this situation?

Quote :

"paerabol: I'm not saying it's justified in any way but I don't see how one can argue that a provocatively-dressed woman isn't more likely to be the victim of sexual assault."

You're a smart, thoughtful dude. I'm assuming you have some statistics to support your claims that "provacatively-dressed" women are more like to be sexually assaulted. I'll just wait patiently for you to reveal your statistics. If you don't return with anything, I'll just guess you were bullshitting, and you can think about why you're sooooooo sure of this fact without having any evidence.



Have y'all seriously not wondered about that? How, with no evidence at all, all of you could be dead certain that scantily women--because they're scantily clad--get raped more often than others? Why do y'all think it is that you believe that with no evidence? I mean, it may be true, but nobody has presented anything to prove it or even indicate it might be true...you're all just accepting on blind faith that "slutty" dress is more likely to = rape than "non-slutty" dress.

I'm just saying. An eighty year-old in a flannel nightgown gets raped in a nursing home. A scantily clad girl among five thousand other scantily clad girls draws the long straw and gets raped in an alley. I don't know where any of you get off suggesting, with absolutely no supporting evidence, anything about what a girl should wear in order to minimize her chances of being raped.

How did y'all ever get so sure of yourselves?

[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 2:56 AM. Reason : I wish I was a boy.]

5/9/2011 2:50:10 AM

Dont they have this every year on October 31st?

5/9/2011 3:16:44 AM

I mean, maybe it makes 'sense', but I would like to see the stats too.

As I said, I doubt they exist:

Quote :

"in all seriousness though, i doubt any statistics exist on this issue. you can't take numbers from a muslim/arab country and compare them to the rape numbers in the US, as the cultures are different and base line rape values are inherently different. one would have to look at the rape rate of covered women vs uncovered women in the same country (US or UK or France or Germany or Lebanon) and one would also need to take a large enough sample. as i said, i doubt anybody has studied that, as such a study by nature would be quite scandalous."

5/9/2011 3:20:54 AM

^Are you talking to Snewf?

He posted like over five posts ago.

Why are you using quotes around the word "sense"?



If you're speaking to me, I agree...I'd love to have some stats, too. So far, all I've got is some basic insight into how predators work from a psychology magazine. And so far all everybody else has is this intuitive idea that if they were gonna rape, they'd rape "sexy" women...so rapists must be the same way (whatever sexy means).

Point is...no stats either way...everybody should stop acting like they know there's a relationship between scantily dressed women and getting raped. It's just nonsense without proof...and you're all making fools of yourselves when you "just know" it.

Plus, even if you did have the stats, even if there was some sort of weak relationship between style of dress and chances of getting raped, y'all think you need to be approaching it from the style-of-dress side? Seriously? Centuries and centuries of telling women to be sexy but not too sexy...and centuries and centuries of people getting raped...and the way we're gonna fix this thing is by reminding people, again, about the "not too sexy" part of the rules... Nothing about maybe trying to influence the behavior of rapists? Seriously...just gonna tell people to stop dressing so slutty? Look at us...so evolved.

[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 3:44 AM. Reason : ]

5/9/2011 3:38:40 AM

Quote :

"Have y'all seriously not wondered about that? How, with no evidence at all, all of you could be dead certain that scantily women--because they're scantily clad--get raped more often than others?"

The answer is so ridiculously easy.

WE'RE MEN AND THESE ARE THE THOUGHTS THAT GO THROUGH OUR HEAD.


The hotter a girl looks, the great urge we have to rip their clothes off and have fuck the living shit out of them.

Girls would never understand.

5/9/2011 3:46:08 AM

Evidence #1





The same specimen. Left has no make up. Right is sluttified.

Which would a guy be more likely to rape?

Don't try to be funny, we all know the answer already.

The right side.

If tried proven false by assuming the right side is the wrong answer, then we'd assume taking make-up off makes girls look "attractive"... which just isn't the case. Therefore, the opposite must be true: applying make-up increases attractiveness.

If the opposite of attraction is "to repel" then that means anyone who is not dressed to impress is repelling more men than their peek maximum attraction potential. If less men are attracted to the girl, the less chance she has of being raped by men.

Slam dunk.


[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 4:09 AM. Reason : .]

5/9/2011 4:02:24 AM

^^That's part of what I'm talking about.

Men generalizing their thoughts to all men, including men who rape.

5/9/2011 6:00:43 AM

Bridget, I know that not all assaults on women are due to looks or perceived physical attrativeness, there are plenty of examples of sociopathic men attacking women over power, hate, control, and a myriad of other issues.

But in the all-too-common un-premeditated situation, it is, to me, a bit obtuse to deny the effect that scant clothing has on the likelihood of exciting a potential attacker. I don't know if you're playing the devil's advocate for the sake of argument or if you're confusing your rights as a woman with human nature but, all statistics aside and all things being equal, it only makes sense that a conservatively-dressed woman is less likely to command the sexual attention of the discerning rapist.

5/9/2011 6:34:37 AM

very few people want to rape a fat, ugly girl in sweat pants

i'm guessing that the majority of rapes involve non-morbidly obese, average-to-attractive girls wearing clothes that accentuate their bodies

logically, a woman should strive to be ugly, fat, and wear unflattering clothing to minimize their chances of being raped

[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 7:49 AM. Reason : .]

5/9/2011 7:49:23 AM

because ugly women never get assaulted.

5/9/2011 8:12:21 AM

while BridgetSPK makes some valid assertions, I think where her logic falls of is in the statistics about rapes themselves. The most common form of rape, although oft unreported, is date rape. In fact, I think I have seen Bridget cite this fact herself in previous threads. So, sure, while the guy in the alley way may not rape someone because of their dress and rather chooses victimhood the guy who commits date rape is more likely to do it because he believes or, rather, thinks that he can demonstrate that the girl wanted it. In this situation the nature of dress is highly relevant. So, yes, I agree that conservative dress is a 100% sure rape prevention but it can act as a means of prevention.

5/9/2011 9:11:16 AM

"GeniuS"xBoY, that's not evidence, it's more speculation.


^ So to avoid date rape you should strive to make yourself as ugly as possible on dates. Also that strategy gives you the added benefit of avoiding second dates, so that gives you even less chance of date rape!

5/9/2011 10:33:15 AM

Quote :

"The most common form of rape, although oft unreported, is date rape"

5/9/2011 10:43:37 AM

Quote :

"Bridget, I know that not all assaults on women are due to looks or perceived physical attrativeness, there are plenty of examples of sociopathic men attacking women over power, hate, control, and a myriad of other issues. But in the all-too-common un-premeditated situation, it is, to me, a bit obtuse to deny the effect that scant clothing has on the likelihood of exciting a potential attacker. I don't know if you're playing the devil's advocate for the sake of argument or if you're confusing your rights as a woman with human nature but, all statistics aside and all things being equal, it only makes sense that a conservatively-dressed woman is less likely to command the sexual attention of the discerning rapist."

this


and no, I don't think anyone is saying that the way a woman dresses is the sole factor in her likelihood to be raped, they are just saying it might a factor. So is drinking alcohol, or putting yourself in other, bad, situations. Yes, you could dress like a Quaker, and you could also not go out after dark, or alone ever, and never touch anything alcoholic/mind altering. ooooor you could find a happy medium, and just try to be responsible in your decisions. And like paerabol said- there will still be crazy fucks out there who will do bad things no matter what precautions you take.


I think some of you are trying to read too much into this- dressing "slutty" is dressing provocatively to an extreme- Provocatively: Tending to provoke or stimulate. If you are dressing provocatively, you are trying to cause a reaction. simple as that.

5/9/2011 10:48:32 AM

Quote :

"Men generalizing their thoughts to all men, including men who rape."

You're suggesting that male rapists (and sociopaths in general) are driven by entirely different instincts than regular men. That, in itself, is an unsupported claim. There's plenty of empirical evidence for sexual attraction. Men see an attractive women and calculate the various ways that they might bed that woman. A rapist is willing to take what they want by force. They seem to have a lack of empathy or self-control, just like any other violent offender, but I don't see why their underlying motivations would be markedly different than any other male.

5/9/2011 3:43:24 PM

just like with theft. normal people covet but those who steal have less self control.

5/9/2011 3:45:20 PM

AHA

So if you dress sexy, you might get date raped. But if you cover up, you might get regular raped:

Quote :

"Even personality plays a role. Conventional wisdom holds that women who dress provocatively draw attention and put themselves at risk of sexual assault. But studies show that it is women with passive, submissive personalities who are most likely to be raped—and that they tend to wear body-concealing clothing, such as high necklines, long pants and sleeves, and multiple layers. Predatory men can accurately identify submissive women just by their style of dress and other aspects of appearance. The hallmarks of submissive body language, such as downward gaze and slumped posture, may even be misinterpreted by rapists as flirtation."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200812/marked-mayhem?page=2

WHAT IS A GIRL TO DO?!?!


^^You're arguing with strawmen, and somehow you're still losing.

5/10/2011 4:28:44 AM

^ thank you for helping me prove my point- "the way a woman dresses could be A factor, but no one in here is arguing that it is the only factor."

No one said there aren't plenty of other factors that could contribute

[Edited on May 10, 2011 at 6:23 AM. Reason : h]

5/10/2011 6:07:58 AM

You have honed in on this point about how it's not the only factor. But nobody here has argued that it's the only factor or argued under the assumption that other people are claiming it's the only factor. So your comments to that end are just kinda weird. Also, you keep saying "could" and "might" when these guys are arguing that it most definitely is.

I've presented some sort of evidence that suggests that rapists do consciously or unconsciously assess clothing when choosing a victim, but "slutty" outfits apparently aren't generally part of the criteria. I made a big deal about how none of you had proven your claims related to style of dress. I'm not saying I can't understand the logic behind them. But I'd still like to know why you are all so confident about this point and so eager to express it:

Well, I don't want to blame the victim, and there's no excuse for rape. But it seems to me that wearing slutty outfits might attract a rapist. Of course, I have no evidence of that, and even if I did, it wouldn't actually mean anything. Not blaming the girls, of course, just stating my unfounded opinion. Really, I'm not blaming them, I promise, but, how bout those girls in slutty outfits: they sure are increasing their chances of being raped! It's just common sense! But there's no excuse for rape.

The extra douchey version of this includes comparing being raped to getting in a motorcycle accident or actually giving advice to women about finding a "happy medium." AHAHAHA, I was originally so shaken by the thought of being raped that I had on three sets of overalls and a sweatshirt, but then I read your post, and I was like, Oh thank God! I can still drink beer and wear shorts!!! Thank you, Biofreak70!

[Edited on May 10, 2011 at 6:50 AM. Reason : ]

5/10/2011 6:45:37 AM

i thought there was already a holiday for this on October 31st!!

5/10/2011 8:55:02 AM

You're a different one, BridgetSPK. This has less to do with the current conversation, the futility thereof becoming more apparent with each post, and more to do with a general character concept gleaned from time spent reading the threads and opinions you have historically chosen to get worked up about. That, or you really don't care about anything and are simply trolling, in which case I applaud you. You almost had me writing an honest counterpoint.

5/10/2011 11:25:09 AM

Quote :

"WE'RE MEN AND THESE ARE THE THOUGHTS THAT GO THROUGH OUR HEAD. The hotter a girl looks, the great urge we have to rip their clothes off and have fuck the living shit out of them. Girls would never understand."

I don't have thoughts like that. I have fantasies about women looking at me admiringly. If a woman shows interest in me she becomes hotter, in my estimation. I never consider force.

...I think you might be some kind of latent rapist.

5/10/2011 11:47:24 AM

This showed up on facebook... a guy friend at McGill of mine is going...
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=206611176030872

5/10/2011 1:06:32 PM

Quote :

"I don't have thoughts like that. I have fantasies about women looking at me admiringly. If a woman shows interest in me she becomes hotter, in my estimation. I never consider force. ...I think you might be some kind of latent rapist."

I get enough sex on my own, thank you very much.

I call bullshit that you've never had fantasies about girls you see out in public which involves bypassing all the "Hi. how are you" bullshit, ripping off their clothes, taking them by surprise, giving them the best dicking of their lifetime and are speechless and thankful for what you gave them as you walk away with you chest held high.

I have to admit though, I'm a lover and not a fighter. And oddly enough, I attract the girls that want to be spanked (hard). They ASK me to dig my nails in their back till they bleed and grab them by the throat while I fuck them like they're a helpless victim...



...jus sayin.

5/10/2011 2:15:34 PM

everyone has rape fantasies (esp women).

5/10/2011 3:18:44 PM

Quote :

"because ugly women never get assaulted."

only as a second third last choice

5/10/2011 3:28:21 PM

Quote :

"SlutWalks SlutsWalk across Canada and US"

5/10/2011 3:32:09 PM

What are the points of these walks? Dress provocative or don't. Doesn't matter, if you are walking through an isolated parking deck, at night, alone you have a higher chance of getting raped. If you walk through a high crime district, alone you have a higher chance of getting raped.

Rape is a crime of violence and aggression it isn't about the girl being "hot". A little common sense and vigilance goes a long way. Date rape is a different issue...don't get so drunk that you lose command of your facilities/judgments. Be aware of your surroundings, have escape plan.

It isn't victim blaming. If I lived in a questionable part of town, i would not leave my curtains open to show my tv, that is asking for a crime. Dress has nothing to do with it, getting yourself into horrible situations is the cause, most of the time. There are some exceptions of course, but being a "slut" has very little to do with it.

Girls, don't get hammered drunk at parties, don't over indulge on a date with a guy you are just meeting, get escorted to your car from work at night, call the service to get a ride back from the library. Stop putting yourself in high risk situations.

5/10/2011 10:49:06 PM

Why do guys go to strip joints when they're horny?

5/10/2011 10:54:14 PM

Quote :

" The answer is so ridiculously easy. WE'RE MEN AND THESE ARE THE THOUGHTS THAT GO THROUGH OUR HEAD. The hotter a girl looks, the great urge we have to rip their clothes off and have fuck the living shit out of them. Girls would never understand."

bridget is right in that this seems pretty ignorant. unless you are a rapist yourself, how can you presume to know what they think? rape is clearly a non-"normal" activity and therefore, you cannot project the thoughts of normal man (you, i assume) onto a rapist anymore than you could guess who a serial killer would pick.

i mean, even normal men have drastically different views on what turns them on.

5/10/2011 11:06:16 PM