Quote :

"gronked"

surprisingly there was already a definition for that at urbandictionary

Quote :

"Being drug on the ground clinging to an appendage while trying to tackle someone. Being crushed, or ran over by someone while engaged in sports, particularly American football. Being thoroughly embarrassed or humiliated by an opposing team member while participating in sports."

but tww version should be added

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 6:06 PM. Reason : *]

6/2/2011 6:06:09 PM

to be fair

Quote :

"you are making the same argument as the evangelical censors. Just because something exists doesn't mean you ever have to see or use it. But it's there for people who do want it. Allowing existing apps to continue to work doesn't mean you have to use them, or that somehow it's a lesser experience because the option exists."

apple made this argument with OSX and iOS. most of the system guts are hidden very thoroughly from the end user and there is a single experience all apps are presented through. this simplicity and enhanced focus on a single method of application delivery vs ms's pattern of supporting/allowing all kinds of shit that eventually becomes cumbersome to maintain has lead apple to the forefront of mobile devices and business penetration of tablets.

6/2/2011 6:26:27 PM

^Except that's not true.

OSX (with Lion) is mixing the worlds of iOS and OSX. And even today you can absolutely install and run non-Aqua *nix applications inside of OSX. There's no barrier whatsoever to letting users drop to a shell prompt and install X11.

And there's no "single method of application delivery" either. Yes you can publish and distribute apps through the App Store, but users and businesses are still completely capable of using their own languages and distribution methods.

Now if you are talking JUST about the iPad, then yes. And it's the biggest reason I haven't bought one. A 10" 500 dollar device better damn well let me browse the open web, give me file system access and shell access if I so desire.

6/2/2011 6:32:18 PM

yes, I'm talking about the ipad and iphone (iOS devices..). yeah, you can write your own stuff if you have an apple developer license etc etc etc, but that doesn't really count. OSX follows these same paradigms to a lesser degree. the barrier to application distribution and administrative tools is lower, but still significantly higher than a windows experience.

6/2/2011 7:02:20 PM

^^so are you not allowed to offer a bash port for free via the App Store

6/2/2011 7:04:57 PM

it's amusing to watch noen jump in on anything MS related and read his comments - it's so PERSONAL

i think it's an interesting idea and would love to see how it works in practice - microsoft has to do something and maybe this is it

the opportunity came up at work 2 months ago for me to move from a pc to my first mac ever - i traded in my dell e4200 for a 13" macbook pro and i love it - however i still can't get by 100% without having parallels with win7 running due to a few tools i need for work - i'm not sure i could ever go back to just win7 right now and be happy

6/2/2011 8:37:33 PM

He's not defending it because it's MS, he's defending against the idiotic idea that interaction patterns and paths don't evolve over time.

6/2/2011 9:28:04 PM

No one gives a shit about OSX. It's a terrible operating system that Apple is slowly killing off in favor of iOS.

That said.

I go to meetings with people who carry iPads. I carry one to meetings. I think I've used it as an actual business device once. I think I've seen one other person in meetings actually use it to take notes. I've seen a lot of Words With Friends. People really want them to be a viable business device -- I'm not sold.

6/2/2011 9:35:13 PM

^^+1 Insightful

6/2/2011 9:46:03 PM

^^ at least your first sentence let me know i didn't need to read the rest

6/2/2011 11:28:33 PM

Quote :

"it's amusing to watch noen jump in on anything MS related and read his comments - it's so PERSONAL"

It's not personal at all. Like I said, I found out about it at the same time as everyone else, and I know just as much about it as everyone else.

Jadn already posted my reply as to why I chimed in at all

6/3/2011 12:53:06 AM

.

[Edited on June 3, 2011 at 1:22 AM. Reason : .]

6/3/2011 1:14:18 AM

Hopefully this new UI won't interfere with a product I am making. I smell some more work in my future.

In case anyone is wondering, this product is a (very advanced) wallpaper manager.

I don't really see this new UI taking off too well in the office environment. I wonder how this would work with people with multiple monitors? And believe me, there are a ton of people who use more than one monitor at my office.

My guess is that this will be mostly geared towards laptops/home computers and not tailored to practical business use at all.

Perhaps there is still a glimmer of hope for my product after all.

6/4/2011 11:44:25 PM

Because I'm sure a 10 billion dollar product never considered multiple monitors.

6/5/2011 1:02:28 AM

Windows has never been optimized for multiple monitors. It has always lacked such features like extending the taskbar to a second monitor, or adding a second taskbar to the second monitor.

6/5/2011 1:14:24 PM

optimized for != works with.

6/5/2011 1:56:10 PM

^ you're right, but microsoft has been outright stupid in their lack of "advanced" multi-monitor support

the fact that i HAVE to use ultramon to make my 3 monitors not suck speaks to that fact...if a simple program like ultramon can do everything i want, there's no reason microsoft couldn't include these features

blah blah blah they design for the majority blah blah blah you're a super user, you don't count blah blah blah

6/5/2011 3:10:51 PM

The point is that Ultramon exists. That's the entire point. It's all possible, Microsoft makes the platform and the market builds the solutions on top of it.

6/5/2011 7:22:31 PM

Eleventy, i know you were trying to avoid spamming the thread, but I'm curious about what you're working on. anything you can show us??

6/5/2011 9:49:35 PM

Sure, I can show you a few edited screenshots shortly. (I went ahead and replied since it may take a while for me to actually make them, edit them and post them here.)

6/5/2011 10:16:36 PM

I have uploaded some edited screenshots of my software here:

http://www.joshuapilkington.com/cw/

Most of these images are of the interface. If you want to skip straight to some sample backgrounds, you can look at the following images:

CW_21.png (a sample collage)
CW_22.png (another sample collage, this time on an abstract rendering by "digitalblashemy". You'll notice that this image is colorized to orange. One of the features my software has is the ability to alter various properties of an image based on several defined criteria.)
CW_25.png (a sample collage with different settings, utilizing a "no draw zone" in the middle of your desktop. This results in a "circle" of images)
CW_27.png (exaggerated collage settings, just to demonstrate the capabilities of the collage generation engine)
CW_28.png (exaggerated glow effect)

All of these sample images have collages in them, though this software certainly doesn't force every background image to use a collage. I just didn't think simply posting a picture of a background image would be very interesting.

I apologize for the heavily edited images of the interface. Given the popularity of this forum, I can't simply post straight-up screenshots until I am ready to officially release this software for beta testing.

---
I really hope Windows 8 has the capability to set a background for that new 'Start' screen (I'm pretty sure it does, I just didn't see anything in the video regarding that). I may have to hack something together otherwise.

6/6/2011 12:38:01 AM

Quote :

"the fact that i HAVE to use ultramon to make my 3 monitors not suck speaks to that fact...if a simple program like ultramon can do everything i want, there's no reason microsoft couldn't include these features"

sure there is. you're a corner case. I'm a corner case, too, but I'm cognizant of that fact.


why waste millions on development manhours for corner cases, especially when there's a cheap solution that exists already? So what you had to pay $30 to do the thing you want to do. It's better than millions of people paying extra for a feature they don't want. You don't see me crying because Photoshop isn't built into Windows, and I use that shit daily.

6/6/2011 2:05:16 PM

I am wondering if it could ever be possible to do office work / software development / graphic design outside of the WIMP environment. There are several productive things people do all the time that don't require a keyboard and mouse.

Right now, I can't really think of a possible way for that to happen, especially when dealing with writing code for software development - unless there were a way to somehow translate writing code to physically interacting with "code objects".

I think that the only way the transition out of WIMP could happen is if productive office use no longer requires it.

Granted, Windows 8 still has WIMP, but given Microsoft's history of changing the way people interact with computers (remember the DOS to Windows transition, with Windows running on top of DOS, even though it was still run by DOS), it is only natural to think that the same thing will eventually happen here. (Windows 8's new UI now runs "on top of" the "old" Desktop UI, even though it is still run by the underlying Desktop kernel, as far as I can tell). Future versions of Windows may not even have a desktop UI.

6/6/2011 2:49:08 PM

Pretty sure the desktop UI on Windows isn't going anywhere any time soon.

6/6/2011 2:58:35 PM

Quote :

"Right now, I can't really think of a possible way for that to happen, especially when dealing with writing code for software development - unless there were a way to somehow translate writing code to physically interacting with "code objects". "

There are several languages/toolkits to do software development via object manipulation. Most of the "child friendly" development environments work this way.

On the other side of complexity, look up Code Bubbles and Code Canvas to see how folks are applying "object" based visualizations to traditional software development

6/6/2011 8:46:59 PM

There's also TouchStudio on WP7 which lets you write little scripts for the phone without actually knowing how to script anything.

6/6/2011 8:53:53 PM

Quote :

"why waste millions on development manhours for corner cases, especially when there's a cheap solution that exists already?"

there's no way ultramon cost millions on development manhours...which is exactly my point

Quote :

"You don't see me crying because Photoshop isn't built into Windows, and I use that shit daily."

you're seriously comparing ultramon to photoshop in this argument? really? try to come up with something valid and you might have a point...until then, recognize that you have to exaggerate to have anything to contribute

you've proved my point, though...it's not asking much for them to provide some basic functionality that would take very little...they already include seldom-used tools for "corner cases"...why not include one that's usable by a larger percentage of people?

hell, i'd settle for a defrag program that doesn't suck...thank goodness for defraggler

6/6/2011 10:35:22 PM

what exactly sucks with windows 7 multiple monitor support? works fine for me.

6/6/2011 10:40:41 PM

I have no issues with it either.

6/6/2011 11:27:22 PM

Quote :

"you're seriously comparing ultramon to photoshop in this argument? really? try to come up with something valid and you might have a point...until then, recognize that you have to exaggerate to have anything to contribute you've proved my point, though...it's not asking much for them to provide some basic functionality that would take very little...they already include seldom-used tools for "corner cases"...why not include one that's usable by a larger percentage of people? hell, i'd settle for a defrag program that doesn't suck...thank goodness for defraggler"

jesus you're a fucking moron

what percentage of users do you think use more than one monitor? It's a lot lower than you seem to believe.


let me break this down for you in simple terms:


You aren't fucking special. More people use photoshop on a daily basis than people who require support for more than 2 monitors. That's a fucking fact. That does not mean that Microsoft should be building either's functionality into Windows by default. Stop being such a goddamned selfish, misguided buffoon.


You have no concept of how features get added to software, do you? If there were a sincere NEED for the majority of their uses to have this feature, it would be incorporated. It is not, because there is not a NEED. Like Noen said, the whole fucking platform is extensible for that reason alone. People can build the shit that they need without relying on Microsoft to do it.

Just because you're a fucking cheap asshole who doesnt want to pay $30 for a valuable piece of software doesn't mean they did the wrong thing.

[Edited on June 7, 2011 at 10:06 AM. Reason : .]

6/7/2011 10:00:06 AM

having the task bar extend to multiple monitors using the same consistant UI and functionality of the normal task bar should be part of the OS.

Ultramon isnt part of the shell and even if they try their best to make it work as well, its still a separate application running inside the shell. Its always going to work wierd and in the end offer a user experience thats just not quite what it should be.

6/7/2011 10:05:35 AM

I agree, and I've said as much in the past. To have such awesome support for hooking up and arranging multiple monitors and then not extending that support to the taskbar is almost mind boggling. That said, I now use DisplayFusion instead of UltraMon. I have licenses for both, but DisplayFusion seems to have a bit better Win7 support at the moment.

[Edited on June 7, 2011 at 12:05 PM. Reason : .]

6/7/2011 12:04:43 PM

i mean yes. it owns so much that you can create things that do that in windows. windows is an excellent platform for development and lets you extend the parts of the os worth extending and as a "power user" i like that.

however, microsoft shouldnt bet that normal consumers are going to be willing to deal with doing extra (and many times confusing) work for features other OSes do internally.

a great and similar example of where microsoft did the right thing is in codec and container support for windows 7. it comes with an mpeg 4 decoder and an h264 decoder and support for the mp4 container. before then everyone had to download divx or xvid or some shitshow codec pack that fucked up the os. but now people can just watch those formats without worrying about any technical crap. Its a superior user experience.

6/7/2011 1:06:08 PM

so this entire argument has been because the taskbar doesn't extend to other monitors? something that multiple programs and software from any video card can accomplish?

seems pretty trivial to me.

[Edited on June 7, 2011 at 2:39 PM. Reason : non-issue]

6/7/2011 2:39:28 PM

^ yes. and that's what I'm screamin'.



Nobody complains because there isn't a dock on both screens when using a mac. seriously the most trivial bullshit corner case ever

6/7/2011 3:34:45 PM

lol @ people who think they know shit about anything...until a single one of you idiots who disagree with me have ANYTHING to back up your statements, i'm going go with "my experiences, and the experiences of those i know personally, are worth at least as much as yours"

and my experience is that on my 3 monitors, i have 17 separate tabs...yes, they COULD be combined, but that's fucking stupid

it's laughable to think that microsoft would spend "millions" in development hours to do something so simple as extending the taskbar (seriously, jadn, do you have any idea how dumb your claim sounds?)...just because i choose to purchase software that makes the operating system more functional doesn't mean that people wouldn't love/benefit greatly from it were it included standard...find me a single person who has used a functional and relatively bugless taskbar extension program on windows who has decided they'd much rather cram everything into a single taskbar on a single monitor...and then i'll call you and them a liar

also, it's funny that you use the word "need" in regards to the OS...75% of windows isn't NECESSARY, but it all contributes to a more complete (and happy) computing experience...by your logic, though, a basic OS that serves only as a platform for apps (none of which are included, of course) is all that anyone NEEDS because then they can BUY every little bit of functionality piecemeal

i couldn't care less, though...i haven't paid more than $10 for a legal copy of windows my entire life (not that wasn't included as part of a built system, anyway), and i certainly have no intention of starting with windows 8...i can then support the company i choose to support, one that gives me the functionality i want instead of the bullshit microsoft will undoubtedly include in lieu of something useful

keep screaming, though, it amuses me to think you'll change anyone's mind

*shrug*

[Edited on June 7, 2011 at 4:00 PM. Reason : derp derp]

6/7/2011 3:59:45 PM

even though the software that came with my graphics card provides software that allows me to use a taskbar on all monitors, i only have the taskbar on my main monitor and neither of the other two.

i prefer it that way

everything is grouped and pinned on my main monitor. other monitors are for moving things too, and i don't like having to look in 3 places to find something that I have collapsed to the taskbar.

everyone here has the same computers, and i have yet to sit down at anyone's desk and notice a taskbar on all of their screens.

[Edited on June 7, 2011 at 4:09 PM. Reason : but its all pretty trivial really]

6/7/2011 4:08:55 PM

thats because 90% of people who use multiple monitors dont know that things like ultramon exist and 9% gave up dealing with the bugs in third party taskbars.

6/7/2011 4:10:39 PM

Quote :

"until a single one of you idiots who disagree with me have ANYTHING to back up your statements,"

The multiple monitor features that you want don't exist in Windows without 3rd party add ons. I don't need any more substantive proof than that. A product that has sold millions of times over doesn't support the feature that you want, and there is NO PUBLIC OUTCRY ABOUT IT.


You're telling me that you know more about the Windows product and the users who use it than all of the Project Managers, User Experience designers, Developers, Strategists, and Design Researchers who have spent - millions of dollars in man hours researching, designing, feature scoping/planning/development - in producing it?

For real?

You truly are the stupidest motherfucker on TWW. Hands down.

[Edited on June 7, 2011 at 5:02 PM. Reason : .]

6/7/2011 5:00:50 PM

Quote :

"even though the software that came with my graphics card provides software that allows me to use a taskbar on all monitors, i only have the taskbar on my main monitor and neither of the other two. i prefer it that way"

Agreed.

6/7/2011 6:04:38 PM

agreed. i got my taskbar on the left side though so it wouldn't make much sense for me anyways

6/7/2011 7:13:01 PM

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/

Quote :

"Building the next release of Microsoft Windows is an industry-wide effort that Microsoft approaches with a strong sense of responsibility and humility. Windows 8 reimagines Windows for a new generation of computing devices, and will be the very best operating system for hundreds of millions of PCs, new and old, used by well over a billion people globally. We've been hard at work designing and building Windows 8, and today we want to begin an open dialog with those of you who will be trying out the pre-release version over the coming months. We intend to post regularly throughout the development of Windows 8, and to focus on the engineering of the product. Welcome to “Building Windows 8,” or as we call it, “B8.” For the Windows team, this blog is an important part of developing Windows 8, as was our blog for Windows 7. Blogging allows us to have a two-way dialog with you about design choices, real-world data and usage, and new opportunities that are part of Windows 8. Together, we will start the unique adventure of bringing a major product to market. We’re genuinely excited to talk about the development of Windows 8 and to engage thoughtfully with the community of passionate end-users, developers, and information professionals. Reimagining Windows from chips to experience Windows 8 reimagines Windows. That's a big statement and one that we will return to throughout this blog. It is also important to know that we're 100% committed to running the software and supporting the hardware that is compatible with over 400 million Windows 7 licenses already sold and all the Windows 7 yet to be sold. But so much has changed since Windows 95—the last time Windows was significantly overhauled—when the "desktop" metaphor was established. Today more than two out of three PCs are mobile (laptops, netbooks, notebooks, tablets, slates, convertibles, etc.). Nearly every PC is capable of wireless connectivity. Screen sizes range from under 10" to wall-sized screens and multiple HD screens. Storage has jumped from megabytes to terabytes and has moved up to the cloud. The appearance of touch-screen mobile phones with the rich capabilities they bring, have together changed the way we all view computing. Most of all, computing is much more focused on applications and on people than on the operating system itself or the data. These changes in the landscape motivate the most significant changes to Windows, from the chips to the experience. We showed you a preview of Windows 8 in June, demonstrating the user experience and providing an update on ARM SoC support. The next major event for Windows is our BUILD conference in September, where we will provide developers with more details about the full spectrum of tools and capabilities available to make the most of Windows 8. This blog is a chance for us to discuss the details and provide a behind the scenes look at the evolution of Windows 8. With our preview in June, we started by showing you user experience, because it is the most visible change to Windows. Rest assured we've thoughtfully engineered changes across the full range of Windows capabilities. But this presents us a challenge in deciding where to start the dialog. We know people who care a lot about networking want to know our plans there. We know people who are invested heavily in storage want to know what is new in that area. Many want to know about performance and fundamentals. We know developers, IT pros, and gamers all want to know what's new for them. There is so much packed into Windows 8 and there are so many unique and important lenses through which to view Windows 8, and so we want to be sure to take the time to cover as many of these topics as possible, to build up a shared understanding of why we’ve taken Windows where we have. So in the next weeks we will just start talking specifics of features, since there is no obvious place to start given the varying perspectives. From fundamentals, to user interface, to hardware support, and more, if something is important to you, we promise we'll get to it in some form or another. We’ve heard people express frustration over how little we’ve communicated so far about Windows 8. We’ve certainly learned lessons over the years about the perils of talking about features before we have a solid understanding of our ability to execute. Our intent with this pre-release blog is to make sure that we have a reasonable degree of confidence in what we talk about, before we talk about it. Our top priority is the responsibility we feel to our customers and partners, to make sure we’re not stressing priorities, churning resource allocations, or causing strategic confusion among the tens of thousands of you who care deeply and have much invested in the evolution of Windows. Rather than generating traffic or building excitement, this blog is here to provide a two-way dialog about the complexities and tradeoffs of product development. Focusing on engineering We started the Engineering Windows 7 blog in 2008 in recognition of the need to re-engage the community and rebuild trust relative to the engineering and design of Windows. While engineering Windows 7, we learned some great lessons and renewed our sense of responsibility to the community. As we moved on to building Windows 8, we took those values and have built on them. Our focus on performance, reliability, compatibility, security, and quality is now baked into our engineering process even as we change Windows for a new generation. With these changes come new ways of doing work on Windows PCs as well as continual investments in hardware, software, and peripherals. We intend to continue our dialog around performance and fundamental engineering of Windows. The feedback on these topics and the desire to talk about them in depth was clear during the development of Windows 7. Starting our dialog We know that blogging about Windows 8 will bring out the passionate opinions of many people, including members of our team. As a team we're all going to participate—many of us will author posts, and all of us will read and take note of your comments on this blog. We'll participate in a constructive dialog with you. We'll also make mistakes and admit it when we do. It is almost certain that something will hit a nerve, with the team or with the community, or both, in the blog posts or in the product, or both. In any case, we'll work hard to have constructive conversations with you, share the data, and, when the situation calls for it, make thoughtful changes. Feel free to send us your thoughts via comments or email—we can't respond to every question we receive, but your suggestions for blog topics are welcome. The email contact link in the right pane goes straight to my inbox without any filter (except spam filtering). Please note that we are also making this blog available in several other languages (acting on feedback from the Engineering Windows 7 blog) and you can expect to see those posts within 48 hours of the English language post. If you're looking for notifications of posts, then be sure to follow us on Twitter @BuildWindows8. Look for shortened URLs of http://win8.ms/ with links to posts and videos. With that, we’ll just ask you to stay tuned and join us in this dialog about the engineering of Windows 8. --Steven Sinofsky"

[Edited on August 15, 2011 at 10:13 PM. Reason : kinda long, important enough imo to post the entire text though]

8/15/2011 10:13:24 PM

I wonder if anyone is a Master of building windows 8? Aka, a MasterB8'er?

8/15/2011 10:24:21 PM

iswydt

8/16/2011 2:23:09 AM

i would hit it

8/19/2011 2:07:05 PM

Ok, seeing the thread at the top reminded me of a rumor from some months ago... the one where Windows 8 would be able to play xbox 360 games. The impression I got was that the rumor was started by some guy making huge speculative leaps and that there was nothing to the rumor at all.

I suspect it's still in that category. Still, it would be nice to finally get to NCAA Football.

8/19/2011 2:20:18 PM

i love this kind of research

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-your-comments-on-the-start-screen.aspx

10/12/2011 10:21:10 AM

And this is where Windows will win again. Utilizing research based on user feedback; sort of crowd-sourcing, but not to the extent of Linux development.

10/12/2011 11:17:51 AM

http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/windowsexperience/archive/2012/02/29/introducing-windows-8-consumer-preview.aspx

anybody download it yet? downloaded the dev preview a while back but never got around to installing it. i'm gonna put it on an old macbook that i use in my bedroom for tv/browsing.

2/29/2012 8:18:03 PM

yeah i upgraded my laptop (which was running the dev preview) with a clean install. The install from the setup file was painless. didnt need to burn a dvd or anything.

but the metro ui is still a goddamn mess on a laptop (or a desktop). what they should have done was have win8 desktop/laptop be win7+system improvements+winrt. win8tablet/phone should be metro only. win8 kernel+winrt. no fucking desktop, no fucking legacy apps. then use xaml to allow developers to write UIs specific to the target platform while using the same winrt codebehind. then spend time converting office from its current com abomination into winrt so it can run in win8arm.

but instead its everything on every system except win8arm which totally fucks up the user experience with a big useless desktop section just for office cause those fuckers are way too lazy to update their shit.

metro on desktops sucks. it just fucking sucks. task switching with the mouse in metro apps is awkward as hell. sometimes right clicking gives you a context menu, sometimes it brings up the app bar or whatever its called which means you need to move your mouse down there and figure out which context option you wanted. install an older app? well great, now all the icons that would have been in that apps folder in the start menu are shat all over your start screen. and of course when you click one you get the fantasticly jarring transition from metro back to desktop.

any switching between metro and desktop apps (which is gonna happen all the goddamn time on a desktop/laptop) is terrible.

noen y'all need to send this shit back to the drawing board. separate desktop and metro by device form factor. no one is gonna fucking care if they cant get office on a tablet. people have been buying ipads by the airplane load without office and thats the market you need to target first with windows tablets. not the goddamned enterprise. port office to winrt (or even do a rewrite) and then release that. an office experience thats integrated with metro is way way better than this desktop on arm shit.

and the enterprise is gonna hate hate hate metro cause its gonna drive support costs through the roof. win8arm doesnt even fucking have domain management components! why in the fuck are you destroying win8arm by adding a limited desktop thing that no consumer wants, while making it useless to the enterprise by removing management features? ios is probably gonna get a good tablet version of office before windows is.

this shit is a mess and i hope microsoft doesnt consider shipping it anywhere close to what it is now.

e: and this is ignoring bugs like people/mail not syncing with no explanation or charms not showing up at all.

[Edited on February 29, 2012 at 9:03 PM. Reason : .]

2/29/2012 9:00:53 PM