glad to see some rational, coherent posts here.

as a GC, i have had customers use "their" subs several times. i generally do not have a problem if it is like one or two guys. everyone has a brother that does tile or a friend who builds cabinets. i will even coordinate them into the project. however, i have found that a lot of the time, that sub is no where near the quality of my normal guys and that sub wont fully "commit" to the job because he is doing the owner a favor...meaning his guys hit my job only when it is convenient for him. they generally cause more problems than they are worth.

9/25/2011 5:12:18 PM

So to avoid what NCSUStinger said...

Ask your builder for references, go look at houses he has built recently, and houses he has built years ago. Ask the residents if they were satisfied with the quality of work and the quality of his subs. It pays off big time to do this ahead of time instead of finding out in the middle of the build that your not happy with the quality of work.

9/25/2011 7:26:37 PM

^^built a new home for a guy that did some "horse trading" with a friend of his to hook up his hot tub (above and beyond the original scope) and our electrician said he couldn't work under his license number (which i don't blame him). so the friend electrician had to pull an additional permit. he also came when his work got "slow." waited 2 weeks to get CO because the hot tub electrical permit was not passed. but hey, he saved $300...

^bingo.

thats just typical research for any big purchase IMO. if a woman (or man... dont want to hurt any Soap Box Peeps feelings) wants a new set of boobs they dont just go under the knife with the cheapest guy they can find. they look at the boobies they have done.

9/25/2011 10:30:39 PM

yeah everyone wants to avoid what i did

thing is, my dad had known these people for years, and they do good work

and my subs were never late, while the GC's had all sorts of troubles

but hey i saved some money


and here is the real funny part:
the GC liked the work done by my subs and asked them to work on other houses down the line
they got less money in their pocket while the GC charged their high rate (plus they had to wait forever to get paid, i wrote a check as soon as the inspector was happy)

once again, i dont care if the GC is pissed they couldnt pick my pocket

most customers arent assholes like me who actually read the contract, so they make good money im sure

9/26/2011 8:18:52 AM

you dont have to be an asshole. if you went into the job with the attitude you display here, i am sure you created an adversarial relationship.

it should be mutually beneficial. you should get the service and finish product you expect and the GC should make a fair profit. making a profit isnt "picking your pocket."

9/26/2011 9:57:36 AM

^and if his dad has that many buddies that are sub contractors then he should have done it himself.

I'm busy enough now that would never agree to something like that. If i was super slow then I may...

and i have a good "asshole meter"

9/26/2011 6:41:07 PM

making a profit is one thing,
but what is paying subs less than they charge on jobs
and making them wait forever to get paid
must be nice to be able to wait on your bills and give excuses


i would prolly break your asshole meter
then again, in a better market, they wouldnt have put up with my shit


before i bought my truck a few years back, i got kicked out of 3 dealerships (after the test drive of course)

i guess im just "that guy"

im saving up for an addition to my house soon, im tempted to call the same guys just for lols

9/27/2011 9:04:46 AM

a good GC should always pay his subs on time. however, the contract and negotiations between the two of them are really none of your business as a customer (unless he just doesnt pay). he may have good reason to withhold some of their payment or to pay them less than originally quoted....especially in residential where everything seems a lot less "official." every one of my subs has a contract for the specific job we are working on, but those values can change over the course of a job as things are added and subtracted.

further, if the GC has a customer who is not paying him and fighting with him every turn, is it the GC's responsibility to essentially finance the job? should he pay out 100% and *hope* the customer finally pays him?

9/27/2011 12:10:13 PM

DaBird, do you provide lien waivers with your pay requests?

9/27/2011 12:14:06 PM

Guess no one has used dat 190% urethane or epoxy grout (Quartzlock 2 or Spectralock seem to be the biggest).

9/27/2011 12:18:35 PM

mdozer73 I provide lien wavers from subs upon request. Typically, on the work I do, they are not required. I do, however, provide my own lien waver to the customer once I am paid.

lewoods I have used epoxy grout several times in commercial kitchens, but I am not convinced it is worth the extra cost for a residential application. tile guys hate it.

9/27/2011 12:26:23 PM

Far more cost-effective to use concrete based grout and sealers in residential applications.

9/27/2011 1:17:33 PM

We worked with a couple of super shitty GC's in our time as subcontractors. Glad to head there are some good ones out there. We had to sit outside a property one day for 6 hours to get the fucker to finally pay us (93 days after we finished the job).

Talk to a GC's subs at another site, they'll tell you in a heartbeat how good the guy is to his subs

9/27/2011 1:46:06 PM

From what I've seen, the cement grout and a good sealer isn't that much cheaper than epoxy/urethane, and the sealer must be reapplied (making it more expensive long term).

The flexibility of urethane/epoxy is the real selling point for me. The house is on a crawlspace and the couple hundred extra per room is worth it to have it less likely to crack. The boy has already worked with acrylic grout, so urethane shouldn't be much different. You just can't do as large of a section at a time as you can with cemetitious grout.

This will be DIY, so I don't have to worry about the extra cost to hire a "luxury/commercial" tile guy that's familiar with the stuff. Just the cost of the grout, which looks like it's only $200-$300 a room.

9/27/2011 2:09:35 PM

Wow, $2-300 a room? That seems like a lot to me. I've got 350 sqft of slate to do, using cement grout and sealer and it's not going to cost anywhere near that. But whatever floats your boat! It is your house, after all.

And FWIW, I've helped install tile floors with my FIL and we haven't had an issue with cracking, slab or crawlspace.

9/27/2011 2:15:49 PM

Ok, so we've finished the design...any and all positive/constructive comments welcome. we will have a basement (still working that), and there is a MIL suite/guest room on first floor.

first floor:



second floor:



The style we are after:

9/28/2011 7:47:14 PM

you should flatten out the garage roof and make a party deck on top of it.

9/28/2011 7:49:16 PM

My Opinions

1. Take about 3'-4' out of the width of the laundry. that space will be more useful in the kitchen.
2. I would do the same thing with the study but both directions.
3. I think there is too much going on in the Powder room. with the footage taken out of the study and a simple powder room you could make the kitchen more of a square rather than rectangle and increase the dining and living.
4. I would increase the short width of the dining room by a foot or 2. A nice formal dining table with any buffet/misc furniture on the wall could get cramped.

Second Floor

1. I would figure an access door in to the garage roof from a bedroom for storage. even if you decrease the pitch of the roof to accommodate a window it is still useful space. With the hip roof on the main house your attic space is less than that of a gable roof. You can never have too much storage.
2. I am assuming that you have his/her closets and yours is in the bathroom? If so, yours is too big... Just kidding. a pocket door on the one in the bathroom might be useful or a small set of double doors. You might could remove the wall and have one big closet and put an island in it.
http://blog.customclosetsdirect.com/custom-closets/add-more-closet-storage-with-an-island/
3. i would increase the width of 2 of 3 bedrooms and leave one smaller. 11' is not a lot. You will need that window in the middle bedroom and i think it will need to be big enough to climb through in case of a fire.

One thing I think is really cool is a "butlers pantry" connecting the kitchen to the dining. See below.

Pretty cool plan though.

[Edited on September 28, 2011 at 9:32 PM. Reason : plan]

9/28/2011 9:25:33 PM

Looks like you have a nice floorplan. One of my hobbies is to look through floorplans and find all the things I would do differently. I can't find too much with yours. The only things I could think of are a couple of issues concerning space.

- I'm all for having a nice size laundry room, but holy crap thats huge. Do you have anything special you're planning on doing with all that room? I realize it's the connection to the inlaw suite but it just seems like it would be a waste of some sq footage

- The other thing is concerning the closets in the 2-4 bedrooms upstairs. The bedrooms are very good size but the lack of a walk-in closet in at least one of them is a bit of a downer. In at least one of the bedrooms I would push out the wall in the closet into the bedroom even with where the closet doors come out to currently (when shown on the plan in the open position). Then put the door for the closet next to the door for the bedroom. While it may make the room smaller, you don't loose much, if any, usable space since that space along the closet isn't really usable now with the doors as they are currently. Does that make sense? But I wouldn't do it in the middle bedroom since it currently only has one bedroom and the lack of natural light can make the room look even smaller.

9/28/2011 9:39:53 PM

@ ctnz71:

1. Take about 3'-4' out of the width of the laundry. that space will be more useful in the kitchen.

a) we actually took 2 feet out of the kitchen. Currently Kitchen is 11' x 20'. The Laundry room is also going to be the mud room with cubbies for shoes/jackets, and a sitting bench.

2. I would do the same thing with the study but both directions.

a) the sides of the fireplace will be built in's with a desk on each side for the kids to do homework at. Also plan on this being a kid's play area. Are you saying make this room from 16'8" x 21' down to 12'8" x 17'?

3. I think there is too much going on in the Powder room. with the footage taken out of the study and a simple powder room you could make the kitchen more of a square rather than rectangle and increase the dining and living.

a) I don'ts understand. The powder room is simple (sink/toilet). The ahll has a food pantry, HVAC return, and a small closet for additional food stowage. The measurements do make the area seem busy. This is the one area I am still looking at...any additional thoughts?


4. I would increase the short width of the dining room by a foot or 2. A nice formal dining table with any buffet/misc furniture on the wall could get cramped.

a) have thought of that, but as we don't expect to do a 'formal' dining room we don't expect that to be a big issue. we may regret that later so save your 'told you so' for future redemption.

Second Floor

1. I would figure an access door in to the garage roof from a bedroom for storage. even if you decrease the pitch of the roof to accommodate a window it is still useful space. With the hip roof on the main house your attic space is less than that of a gable roof. You can never have too much storage.

a) we are def doing that from the upstairs hall...but good idea for the garage (they are only about $200. We are doing a 2100 sq ft basement with half as storage.

2. I am assuming that you have his/her closets and yours is in the bathroom? If so, yours is too big... Just kidding. a pocket door on the one in the bathroom might be useful or a small set of double doors. You might could remove the wall and have one big closet and put an island in it.
http://blog.customclosetsdirect.com/custom-closets/add-more-closet-storage-with-an-island/

a) we went with the his/hers, with mine opening into the bathroom since I am up @330 for work. I like the idea of a pocket door.

3. i would increase the width of 2 of 3 bedrooms and leave one smaller. 11' is not a lot. You will need that window in the middle bedroom and i think it will need to be big enough to climb through in case of a fire.

a) we wanted to keep the bedroom sizes the same so the kids can't argue about the others room being bigger. we are working the challenge of that window...not an easy one.

9/29/2011 9:15:59 AM

@wolfpack:

- I'm all for having a nice size laundry room, but holy crap thats huge. Do you have anything special you're planning on doing with all that room? I realize it's the connection to the inlaw suite but it just seems like it would be a waste of some sq footage

a) see post above about using it as a mudroom. plus we HATE our small laundry room. We are considering putting a fold down from wall table for folding too.

- The other thing is concerning the closets in the 2-4 bedrooms upstairs. The bedrooms are very good size but the lack of a walk-in closet in at least one of them is a bit of a downer. In at least one of the bedrooms I would push out the wall in the closet into the bedroom even with where the closet doors come out to currently (when shown on the plan in the open position). Then put the door for the closet next to the door for the bedroom. While it may make the room smaller, you don't loose much, if any, usable space since that space along the closet isn't really usable now with the doors as they are currently. Does that make sense? But I wouldn't do it in the middle bedroom since it currently only has one bedroom and the lack of natural light can make the room look even smaller.

a) interesting point, will bring it up with the wife!

9/29/2011 9:17:43 AM

Still think you can cut some space out of the laundry. Even with cubbies. That's a really big room.

9/29/2011 12:34:13 PM

Quote :

"Still think you can cut some space out of the laundry. Even with cubbies. That's a really big room."

100% agree.

9/29/2011 2:46:51 PM

As an architect myself, I find this thread extremely useful & hilarious at the same time.

I mean WTF, who walks through a laundry room to enter a bedroom??? Who DOES that? Also back-to-back sinks is not a very good idea if you plan on having mirrors on both walls you'll get the never-ending tunnel look. Otherwise I guess, not bad, but agree with some of the other comments about the kitchen.

[Edited on September 29, 2011 at 3:11 PM. Reason : .]

9/29/2011 3:06:34 PM

Its the MIL Suite...'nuff said

9/29/2011 3:09:28 PM

yeh... i've seen laundry rooms be off a bedroom, but never a bedroom off a laundry room... strange

9/29/2011 3:10:11 PM

Quote :

"Its the MIL Suite...'nuff said"

LOL... still... doesn't make a good design unless the MIL is also the maid, which I think you're implying.

9/29/2011 3:13:24 PM

For those of you that have built your own house, how much did it end up costing per square ft.?

10/3/2011 10:54:01 AM

Also, when mentioning cost per sqft, please mention total sqft and any upgrades that might skew it (granite countertops, marble tile in the bathroom, $5k built in entertainment system, etc).

10/3/2011 10:57:57 AM

^exactly, thanks.

I am getting sick of seeing 20 houses a weekend and am really considering designing and building one I know I will like

10/3/2011 11:08:58 AM

^^ I'm curious about this as well.

10/3/2011 11:12:44 AM

Does anyone have any experience with concrete or brick residential buildings? Is it an entirely cost prohibitive method for [non-luxury] single-family houses?

10/3/2011 11:28:15 AM

Sure. You build a house. Then you build another entire house inside the first, because you can't insulate block or nail to it or run wires in it.

Granted it's a much more solid building than the balloon frame shit that is the typical American home. But expect it to cost twice as much. Maybe three times as much since you'll have to hire an overpaid architect since you won't be able to find any cookie cutter plans.

10/3/2011 12:14:09 PM

A house near us was recently done like that. Had a full basement and first floor that was completely poured concrete. I guess they didn't have the money to do the second floor because that wasnt poured. I could see it costing 1.5 times as much.

10/3/2011 12:36:18 PM

It can't be that bad from the complexity of the build perspective. Most everyone outside of the US is doing it. In fact, some US states use residential construction methods other than wooden-frame pretty regularly. I was just wondering how much more expensive it is (factoring in the cost of ownership) to build and own concrete house vs. taditional wood frame building. I've heard figures anywhere from 5% more expensive to what yo guys mentioned, double or triple. I am sure a lot of it depends on the area and the type of the structure, that's why I am specifically enquiring about about NC.

10/3/2011 1:18:34 PM

Quote :

"Had a full basement and first floor that was completely poured concrete. I guess they didn't have the money to do the second floor because that wasnt poured."

Weight and money. Hybrid approach makes a lot of sense, more likely that they decided to keep their money than pour the 2nd floor.

Quote :

"I was just wondering how much more expensive it is (factoring in the cost of ownership) to build and own concrete house vs. taditional wood frame building. I've heard figures anywhere from 5% more expensive to what yo guys mentioned, double or triple"

In the US, 50% more to double. Not that it's technically more difficult, but that almost no one does it, so you can bank that every single sub-contractor is going to raise rates to compensate for their uncertainty.

10/3/2011 1:57:44 PM

Really, does 50% to double extra scare you away from the safety of a zombie fortress? I mean can you put a price on this kind of security?

10/3/2011 2:06:29 PM

The Extreme Makeover Home Edition house that I volunteered on this past winter/spring in Wichita KS did something like this. More and more homes in that area are doing it because of the storms though I haven't looked into how much extra it costs. If you're really interested, you might try looking at builders out in the "tornado alley" as you might have more luck finding builders to give you an idea of how much extra it costs. The builder that built that house was http://www.bobcookhomes.com/index.htm

Quote :

"For those of you that have built your own house, how much did it end up costing per square ft.? "

Yeah it definitely changes with the type of house you're building. Depending on what neighborhood we were building in, I could tell you exactly how much per foot it costs.

The neighborhoods with houses between 1500-2000sq ft with vinyl sided houses, two-car garage thats unfinshed, hardwood common areas, 5-1/4" speed base, crown, boxing and waynes coating in dining would go for $115/ft though its probably a bit cheaper now.

Neighborhoods with houses between 2500-3500 sq ft with brick/stone fronts and hardi-siding on the rest, 2-3 car garage that is finished inside, hardwood common areas, 7-1/4" and 5-1/4" speed base, 2-piece crown, boxing and waynes coating in dining, tile and granite tops in kitchen and all bathrooms, wood (mdf) shelving would go for about $135-$140/ft. Again probably a bit cheaper now.

And this is from a small custom home builder, not a large national builder building square homes

10/3/2011 2:28:12 PM

I would avoid the opposing vanities in the master bath.
You could swap the linen closet and the smaller vanity, and turning the longer side to a double vanity, and closet between the shower and bath.

10/3/2011 3:01:50 PM

Quote :

"Really, does 50% to double extra scare you away from the safety of a zombie fortress? I mean can you put a price on this kind of security? "

Of course you could build a concrete dungeon, but I'm really thinking the opposite: concrete and steel structural carcass with wood/glass exterior walls and interior partitions. Concrete structure allows for unsual angles (and curves) to be introduced to the design without dramatically raising costs, and allows loads that are not feasable with the wooden frame structure (rooftop patios/gardens, pilareless glass walls). Longevility of the structure is appealing as well, concrete is not affected by moisture, termites, mold, it is more fire-resistant, cheaper to maintain etc.

10/3/2011 4:20:45 PM

If I was going to build I'd want to do a shipping container house. Problem is that it's so cheap to buy a house right now it doesn't make sense to build. Especially since I can live in a foreclosure while we fix and remodel, but can't live in a house while it's being built. The extra rent really makes the difference.

10/3/2011 4:47:41 PM

Quote :

"Also, when mentioning cost per sqft, please mention total sqft and any upgrades that might skew it (granite countertops, marble tile in the bathroom, $5k built in entertainment system, etc)."

I came in at $87/ft for construction.

- 1635 sqft 3 bedroom 3.5 bath.
- Hickory Hardwoods everywhere but bedrooms.
- GE Monogram/Profile Appliances (Hood, Gas Cooktop, Fridge, Oven/Microwave Combo, Warming Drawer, Wine Cooler, Front load washer/dryer) Basically got these 40% off
- Custom Cabinets with Level 3 Granite Tops
- Brushed Nickel Hardware/Fixtures
- Dual HVAC (Dual Fuel Gas/Electric)
- Tankless Water Heater
- In Ceiling Speakers on front porch, kitchen, living, and master bedroom.
- Hardi Siding
- 18' x 22' detached garage
- I did the trim, floors, and interior paint myself. Did exterior deck and front porch myself as well.

It took me 8 months but the majority of that was was because all the work i was doing myself was between 7pm and 2am(some mornings) and Saturdays/Sundays

10/3/2011 10:22:27 PM

Update....so after talking with 5 builders we have narrowed to 2.....

Have now started working with an architect and engineering firm...hoping to have a real set of plans in 3-4 weeks!

11/22/2011 1:12:02 AM