Quote :

"They could get a job during college and pay for school. That was possible. Now, even working nearly full-time, the job will only reduce the amount of debt we have to take."

Truth. Currently, I am able to keep my education debt free by working full time and going to school part time. Electrical Engineering is quite demanding on my time, as is a full time job with family and home ownership responsibilities, and the cost of NCSU tuition just keeps getting more expensive each semester leaving me little to save for extra stuff after each month's paychecks.

Quote :

"Widespread student loans have diluted the value of the degree due to a falsely-inflated supply of people with degrees, and made degrees more expensive to get due to falsely-inflated demand by students for them. "

I fully agree. My parents were golden with an undergrad degree. Today, even a graduate degree seems insufficient at times. Value of education has deflated so much you almost need a PhD to stand out. On top of that, having a degree in one field of study and working in another that requires "any" degree is has created unnecessary spending. I don't understand how an undergrad degree in Physical Education makes someone eligible for a financial institution position over someone who may not have a degree but has extensive experience in customer service or business management. Using the "you must have a degree to be qualified" principle is pointless if the degree is not relevant to the job.

9/16/2011 12:38:48 AM

I pay 350 dollars a semester to NCSU to attend, so yeah, I laugh you in the face, debt.

Oh but I got a "worthless degree" well shit.

9/16/2011 12:40:35 AM

the answer to the problem is not to forgive student loan debt

it sets a horrible precedent and does not attack the root of the problem, which is useless degrees and universities that have stretched themselves too thin

9/16/2011 12:44:53 AM

I really don't get this. People couldn't afford to go to school with what means they had at that moment (for whatever the circumstances were)... so they bucked up and got a loan because they thought it was best. Then they get this shit forgiven, but the people who paid out of pocket or paid off their loans already get fucked out of however much they paid.

Do. Not. Understand.

(For those with loans that will get forgiven, I don't fault you for taking a freebie, though... i'm sure you realize that this is a gift of epic proportion.)

9/16/2011 1:35:08 AM

This is some bullshit.

We need 175,000 signatures
There are currently 170,730 signatures

175,000 idiotic and/or selfish Americans. That's easy to find...

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 2:04 AM. Reason : .]

9/16/2011 2:04:16 AM

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/default-rates-rise-federal-student-loans

9/16/2011 2:25:02 AM

Great. Federal Government tries to "invest" in students by giving them loans. Students default. Government in even more debt with nothing to show for it. Bravo.

9/16/2011 3:12:40 AM

Quote :

"Not anyone's business to know. Plus I don't see the relevance. "

The relevance is you're just in here spouting platitudes as if your "don't go into debt you can't get out of advice" is relevant in all situations always. The point was, I'd like to know just what type of job(s) paying what type of wage you expect someone to take such that they can pay off the student loan AND manage to put a roof over their head and eat?

It's just stupid.

If everyone took advice like this, there would never be any risk taking in our nation which is one of the things that makes us (and capitalism) unique.

The problem here isn't that someone actually tried to improve their life, the problem is that the government meddled in the market for it and drove up the costs for everyone trying to do so. I mean ffs dude, you're telling a guy who went to law school that he was stupid to rack up debt trying to do it? Someone trying to be a lawyer? Who generally shouldn't have much trouble at all finding work? Get over yourself.

Quote :

"It's OK and acceptable to be in debt now. We need to get out of that mind frame."

It IS ok to be in debt. It's even OK to not pay back securitized debt either. If a lender is stupid enough to give someone money that can't pay it back, the loss is theirs.

9/16/2011 7:35:49 AM

By the end of this month, I should be debt free

Although I've been incredibly fortunate with a family who saved up for my tuition. Besides that, I've just lived within my means and not acted like an idiot with credit cards or buying a car I can't afford.



[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 8:11 AM. Reason : 0]

9/16/2011 8:09:37 AM

as a proud sociocapitalist, i'd much prefer that school be free for those who deserve* it

failing that, i feel that student loans should be offered at ridiculously low interest rates with extremely generous payback terms**

*obviously, "deserve" is subjective and sometimes it isn't "fair" because of socioeconomic status and its effect on how well someone does in school...but that's not really relevant for this discussion

**i'm not sure what these would be...interest rates just high enough to keep up with inflation (and so does not yield a profit for the lender, but keeps them from losing outright?)...also, i don't know, 20 years to pay it back? i realize it's not so simple

9/16/2011 8:10:47 AM

^ is that not the system that we already have?

9/16/2011 8:16:05 AM

^ not at all...some places like georgia do free state college for their high school grads, but the majority of states don't...shoot, NC just recently got rid of the free state college for NCSSM graduates

as for education loans, no, they suck...unless you (or, rather, you family) is especially poor, you pay a shitastic rate for education loans (though payments are often deferred, you're still racking up the interest)

9/16/2011 8:19:29 AM

Quote :

"If you can't get scholarships to fund your college expenses, you shouldn't consider taking out a loan either. "

Debt isn't evil, bro. Debt was the only way I was going to be able to attend (and enjoy) college at NC State. I was fully aware of my obligation to pay it back and have been doing so for three years like a responsible person would.

Why are you assuming everybody that took out a student loan did so expecting the government to eventually forgive it? Nobody in here is in favor of the bill. But nobody's going to turn down free money either, even shiny beacons of financial responsibility like yourself.

9/16/2011 8:29:06 AM

Quote :

" The relevance is you're just in here spouting platitudes as if your "don't go into debt you can't get out of advice" is relevant in all situations always. "

Yes, the "don't go into debt you can't get out of advice" is relevant in all situations always. It's called taking responsibility for yourself! There's no reset button in life. If you put that much risk to get that far ahead and fall flat on your face you should then accept the consequences of being in debt over your head. This concept of "I took a risk and it didn't pay off so I need to be forgiven" shenanigans is absurd! Hell, the concept is no different from back in the western days when people would go get pardons in advance from Catholic churches for crimes they haven't committed yet. That way if they got busted committing a crime, they were already safe! Where's the REAL risk in a system setup this way? "Oh you gave it a good shot but unfortunately you can't pay off this enormous loan (education/mortgage/etc) because your projected income isn't where you thought it would be, that's okay... don't worry about it..."

Quote :

"The point was, I'd like to know just what type of job(s) paying what type of wage you expect someone to take such that they can pay off the student loan AND manage to put a roof over their head and eat? "

Depends on everyone's unique situation. It's always possible though. Just depends on how extreme you are willing to make it work and many Americans are too proud/too lazy to put in the necessary hard work to make ends meet and start asking the government to "help them out." People accept "defeat" way to easily and look for an easy out. I hate John Orcutt for this reason. Offering bankruptcy like it's a wonderful thing when you can't pay your debts.

Quote :

" If everyone took advice like this, there would never be any risk taking in our nation which is one of the things that makes us (and capitalism) unique."

There are certain levels of risk that make sense. The conservative method is always suggested as you are more likely to succeed. With any level of risk you take it is your responsibility to fully investigate and educate yourself on the risks ahead and then decide if it is worth it or not. So if you want to take a greater risk, then please by all means do so, however, make sure that Double Ace your pocketing will win you that poker round. Too may people are GUNG-HO in taking a level of risk that they can't responsibly handle should things not work out correctly.

Quote :

"The problem here isn't that someone actually tried to improve their life, the problem is that the government meddled in the market for it and drove up the costs for everyone trying to do so. I mean ffs dude, you're telling a guy who went to law school that he was stupid to rack up debt trying to do it? "

To some extent, yes. If he didn't have a pretty "sure plan" setup to get his debt responsibilities paid for, then that person lacks reasonable judgement of risk/benefit and is now suffering from it. We all make bad decisions in our life, however, it's no excuse to bail out on those decisions and sweep them under the rug hoping the problem will away. Doing so never fully solves the problem. Own up to the responsibility and find a way to pay back what you promised you originally would.

Quote :

"It IS ok to be in debt. It's even OK to not pay back securitized debt either. If a lender is stupid enough to give someone money that can't pay it back, the loss is theirs."

To some extent, I agree with this. It is partially the lender's fault for giving out money, especially if it is without collateral or securities. HOWEVER, it is EQUALLY the responsibility of the borrower to make sure THEY hold up their end of the bargain. Just because the borrower fails now to get rid of their debt does not mean they should be "forgiven." This just puts the blame entirely on the lender when really it's the borrower who breached the contract of repayment. The debt should not just be forgiven and the lender "count their losses." Eventually, I'm SURE that the borrower will be able to repay the amount in their lifetime, even if it's a partial amount until the day they die. In that case, the borrower should CONTINUE to do so. Quit looking for an easy out.

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 8:46 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 8:48 AM. Reason : .]

9/16/2011 8:44:43 AM

I will expect to be handed money if this goes through, because I worked my ass off and was miserable the whole time I was in school just to avoid loans.

9/16/2011 9:18:20 AM

Quote :

"Why do you assume the only people with student loan debt are those without jobs?"

If the job your education provided you can't even cover your student loans then perhaps it was not a very wise investment in your future.

9/16/2011 9:23:40 AM

this shit is so ridiculous

who shall introduce the bill about free liquor?

WHEREAS we all like liquor and ice cream; and

WHEREAS we don't like paying for things;

BE IT RESOLVED that all municipalities install soft serve and white lightning taps in all residences at no cost to the public

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 9:31 AM. Reason : addendum: the founding fathers wanted sprinkles and also it will create jobs or some such]

9/16/2011 9:31:13 AM

Henceforth known as the Ice Cream and Liquor Act of 2011.

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 9:34 AM. Reason : Bowls are free. Cones are deductable.]

9/16/2011 9:32:30 AM

guys.

this is a bill introduced by a freshman, minority party member.

it's the legislative version of an over the pants handjob.

9/16/2011 9:32:54 AM

^^^^I agree to an extent, and this is the reason that over in the law school thread I was saying it's probably a really bad idea to take out a $150,000 loan to go to Elon or something.

Nevertheless, I can't equate wanting to go to school with taking out a loan to buy a Ferrari you can't afford. One is frivolous and the other at least reflects some level of wanting to improve one's society and station in life. Nobody goes to school with a "sure plan" because of all their connections, or else there wouldn't really be a need to school - all you'd need is nepotism.

And by the way, Hiro, if you are who I think you are:

Quote :

"If you can't get scholarships to fund your college expenses, you shouldn't consider taking out a loan either."

I didn't get the free NCSSM tuition that you did to go to State. I didn't get any money at all, despite having a 5.0 at S&M. Should I not have gone to college because I didn't get a scholarship?

But yeah, this will never pass anyway, so whatevs.

9/16/2011 9:42:00 AM

Quote :

"GIVING PEOPLE MONEY/ERASING DEBT will not teach them how to be fiscally responsible."

Ain't that the truth

9/16/2011 9:48:13 AM

THOUGHTS ON THOSE WHO TAKE LOANS

Quote :

"It IS ok to be in debt."

This is true. As long as the short term borrowing will generate long-term gains, thus making the borrowing an investment. Not all degrees do this, so one should largely consider what their major is before they sign up for student loans.

Quote :

"And some people/professions don't require a college degree, so stop stuffing your kids into college just to get massive debt and a worthless piece of paper."

Signed. In our current climate jobs at phone centers, administrative assistants and retail store managers require a college degree. This has a negative impact on our economy because it prevents people who are qualified but are without a degree from getting employed or someone gets a degree on debt to take the same job but can now consume less because they have less disposable income.


THOUGHTS ON LOANS THEMSELVES

As someone who is currently using student loans, I can tell you first hand that are not, what I would consider, a competitive option and even border on what I could consider predatory lending.

Quote :

"i feel that student loans should be offered at ridiculously low interest rates with extremely generous payback terms"

Quote :

"^ is that not the system that we already have?"

Not all. Student loans, especially for graduate loans, are 6.8% to 7.9%, which is ridiculous when you consider the current Fed rate. I do understand that a portion of that high rate is associated with the risk premium associated with the uncertainty an individuals education will reap reward and thus they'll be able to pay. It is for that reason that I believe student loans, like most loans, should offer more flexibility and evaluate borrowers based on credit rating and perhaps even major/grade performance. Access to such information would allow borrowers flexibility in their lending and would not only better align with other banking practices but would also discourage those who may have less certain future prospects or may be less serious about their education from borrowing since they would have to do so at such a high rate.

Earlier I equated that the student loan program is borderline predatory. The high interest rate has much to do with it, but, it is how the loans are managed and disbursed that really concerns me.

Student loans come in a variety of packages with different rates. The rate varies, as it should, based on how much you want to borrow. However, if you borrow from different packages the system is designed such that you must take disbursements from each package, meaning that you are collecting interest at a higher aggregated interest rate than if you exhausted your lower rate disbursements first and then utilized the higher rate.

Furthermore, once you are in disbursement the loans are entered automatically into deferment, meaning that you have no payments but interest still accumulates; this status cannot be changed until following graduation. While you can still pay off your loans, it is intentionally difficult for you to do so. The loans are specifically designed at a high rate, with unclear payment terms, and misrepresented so that the lender (the government) can accrue as much unpaid interest as possible.

There is a degree of personal responsibility involved and the onus is on the individual to investigate their terms fully, the loans are misrepresented and intentionally done so. Whats worse is that, in an undergrad situation, those taking the loans are not only both young and naive but also are unlikely to come from a family that can teach them how to best manage debt, since they require loans in the first place. These students end up accruing debt over four years, leaving them with loans far greater than what they originally borrowed.

The problem with our current loan system is that its predominately managed by the government and it suffers from undue regulation. If student loans were managed by the private market, loan programs would have more flexibility and terms that would greatly benefit those who really need/deserve them.

9/16/2011 10:56:46 AM

Want a full ride for college, join the military.

9/16/2011 11:23:41 AM

Quote :

" If more people act like that, though, the average house wouldn't be nearly as expensive. Debt creates the need for more debt. Yes, it would require longer periods of saving, but we would all be better off because the economy wouldn't be so fragile. Leverage means increased risk. I'm not against all home loans, but I find a lot of wisdom in the very old school lending standards (or going even tighter than that). The widespread availability of cheap mortgage credit drives up home prices. The same goes with tuition and student loans. Widespread debt inflates prices, which creates greater need for the debt. Just like the housing bubble, the tuition bubble will burst. For some reason, everyone thinks busting the tuition bubble is good, but busting the housing bubble is bad. I like cheap prices, and deflation in life's necessities sounds great to me. Releasing the mal-investment in falsely inflated sectors frees up cash for other areas. The process is painful, but it is medicine. With a little sanity, we could have avoided the problems in the first place."

This is the big point that needed to be made. A lot of these responses seem to place the blame squarely on the student, and while much of the blame does belong there, there are other factors at play.

The root problem is that the government began subsidizing student loans. Eventually, pretty much anyone could get a student loan and for most people, it was necessary. Decades ago, tuition didn't go up 10% every year, but there also weren't many loans available. You could work your way through school.

Fast forward to today. You have to take loans out to get a J.D. or M.D. - there's really no option. You're not going to work your way through it. You're taking out a loan for something that in no way guarantees future income, and unlike a house or a car, you can't "give it back" to the creditor. Once you got the degree, you've got it.

The whole model is messed up. This kind of credit should not be available to students that have shown no indication that they'll be able to pay it back. No 18 year old is in a position to determine whether it's reasonable to take out 100k+ in debt. They haven't paid a bill in their life. The guidance counselor tells them it's a good idea. Their parents say it's a good idea. Advisors tell undergraduates that there will always be a need for good people in academia, yet we have Ph.D.s flipping burgers.

"Tighten your belt and pay the debt" off isn't a viable solution for a lot of these people. Our debt-based ponzi economy is going to implode before that ever becomes a reality, and the creditors are going to get screwed - as they should. The person that gives out a huge loan to a person with zero credit is as much of an idiot as the person that receives the loan.

9/16/2011 11:32:01 AM

yeah, this bill rulz the shitter


What they need to do is STOP SUBSIDIZING ENGLISH DEGREES and worthless shit like that.

the only way to increase in engineering and science degress is to financially encourage more people to consider those areas of study.

So, while everyone has a right to pick their major, it does not mean that the government should subsidize each student equally. We suck as a country in producing grads in these areas ... and this would significantly change the way people consider educating themselves.

9/16/2011 11:33:15 AM

^Yeah, engineering needs to be fluffed more. The entirety of academia should just be the College of Engineering. Sounds good to me, when can we start?

9/16/2011 11:43:21 AM

How about...don't subsidize any of it. Let the market decide. Creditors will only extend loans for candidates that they believe have a good chance of being able to pay back. The creditors that give out loans for Ph.Ds in Creative Writing will lose their shirt. The creditors that give out loans for engineering/tech degrees will be less likely to lose their shirt.

Creative destruction. That's how capitalism works. Not everyone gets to succeed all of the time; you have to allow people to try different approaches.

9/16/2011 11:44:22 AM

Corporations get massive breaks from the government all the time. I wouldn't mind getting a break from the government in the form of my student loans

Quote :

"Creditors will only extend loans for candidates that they believe have a good chance of being able to pay back."

Yeah we saw how well that worked during the housing bubble. Hell, even right now I just went through the process of getting a home loan and was shocked at what they would approve me for compared to what I personally knew I could afford.

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 3:08 PM. Reason : a]

9/16/2011 3:04:17 PM

^^ the problem is that capitalism is not a sustainable form of government economics

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 3:26 PM. Reason : .]

9/16/2011 3:25:42 PM

Okay? Humanity isn't sustainable. You don't have a point. Free market capitalism is a lot more sustainable than a centrally planned, command economy.

Quote :

"Yeah we saw how well that worked during the housing bubble. Hell, even right now I just went through the process of getting a home loan and was shocked at what they would approve me for compared to what I personally knew I could afford."

It didn't work at all with the housing bubble. In fact, the banks that took the most risks ended up getting bailed out. I'm saying we should let banks issue loans, but when they fuck up, we let them go bankrupt.

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 4:17 PM. Reason : ]

9/16/2011 4:06:31 PM

Well yeah that's kind of my point Creditors don't seem to take ability to pay into consideration as much as they should.

I wonder if we had left the banks go belly up for their crappy business practices how our economy would be right now. Better? Worse? The same?

9/16/2011 4:32:11 PM

It would be way worse.

And that would be a good thing, long-run.

9/16/2011 4:32:58 PM

Quote :

"I didn't get the free NCSSM tuition that you did to go to State. I didn't get any money at all, despite having a 5.0 at S&M. Should I not have gone to college because I didn't get a scholarship?"

With a 5.0 at S&M, there should have been plenty of other scholarships you could have applied for to help you through college. A 5.0 at S&M is really impressive! I'm can't help but think that someone as exceptional in academics as yourself could have obtained a sum of other scholarships equal if not greater than the 8 consecutive full time tuition scholarship each graduate from 2004-on received. There are plenty of people who are qualified to go to Universities, however can only afford community or technical schools. Many of these schools offer transfer programs (ie: Wake Tech and NCSU). I also know a person who went to Wake Tech for undergrad, worked hard with minimal education debt saving what they could, and then went to Duke Univ. for their graduate degree in medicine. There are many paths available. Seek them out, do some research, and pick the one that fits you the best while helping you maintain financial responsibility and balance. Just because you didn't get the NCSSM Scholarship shouldn't completely hinder you from going to college, especially if you succeeded well. However, financial matters should always be considered.

9/16/2011 11:57:11 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjumeyZpL3I

9/17/2011 7:47:25 AM

Quote :

"Okay? Humanity isn't sustainable. You don't have a point. Free market capitalism is a lot more sustainable than a centrally planned, command economy."

lol, it's hilariously sad that you think that

9/17/2011 8:22:19 AM

I'm going to have a shitload in grad school debt ($60-70K, yay out of state tuition and not being able to work) but I knew that going in... I guess I don't understand being forgiven for something like this because you know what you're getting yourself into when you sign all those papers.

9/17/2011 9:01:33 AM

^ you're probably in the minority with that view

9/17/2011 9:35:10 AM

If you have a lot of student debt and can't service it you have the option of leaving the country. I know of one person who did this "poor man's default" by moving to Vancouver.

9/17/2011 1:31:17 PM

Well, escaping America probably isn't a bad idea these days.

9/17/2011 1:46:38 PM

^^ I know someone who did this as well. Worked for him, he can just never come back to the US.

9/17/2011 2:59:33 PM

Leaving the U.S. because you can't pay your student loans is pretty fucked up (if you have no intention in repaying). No different from stealing IMO.

[Edited on September 17, 2011 at 4:08 PM. Reason : ..]

9/17/2011 4:07:53 PM

Some whiny people ITT.

I went to ncsu for undergrad (CSC). I graduated a semester early. I took 18-21 credit hours a semester. I worked during the school year and overtime during breaks. I graduated with 3k in student loans that were paid off the same year.

NCSU is fucking dirt cheap tuition, and Raleigh is dirt cheap to live in. Yall are some lazy as shit motherfuckers.

I don't believe this "Overqualified" bullshit either. There are TONS of jobs out there, just not people willing to swallow their pride and earn an honest day's pay. This isn't the great depression, this is a generation of college graduates who are lazy, self-entitled, prideful and insulated.

Unemployed? Get a job mowing yards, stocking groceries, as a trade apprentice, a sanitation worker, a teacher, or any of a 1000 other professions hurting for skilled labor.

9/17/2011 7:16:21 PM

"mowing yards"

"skilled labor"

[Edited on September 17, 2011 at 7:20 PM. Reason : not lawns]

9/17/2011 7:20:29 PM

^2 that's easy to say but I definitely had some employers say I was over qualified for positions. It's crap but it happens. It's easy to tell people their experiences are bullshit if you've never experienced it yourself.

9/17/2011 7:34:05 PM

[/quote]There are TONS of jobs out there, just not people willing to swallow their pride and earn an honest day's pay. [/quote]

I agree with this to an extent.

I have a friend who graduated with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering. He couldn't get a job as as a Teller, Cashier at local Lowes or Harris Teeter, Fast food, nothing. Many of these places said he was over qualified and feared that he would just be a "temporary" employee who would leave as soon as he got a job in his field. Someone with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering doesn't settle down at a place like Harris Teeter. What they all failed to realize is that he graduated 2 years ago and hasn't had a job, besides a handful of very small contract jobs that lasted a week or so each, so chances are he's probably still going to be out of the study related job market for a while. I've seen him apply to hundreds of jobs that were hiring but with no luck on his end. I imagine if this is happening to him, it must be a widespread problem.

Quote :

"This isn't the great depression, this is a generation of college graduates who are lazy, self-entitled, prideful and insulated."

Yup.

Quote :

"NCSU is fucking dirt cheap tuition"

NC RESIDENT

Hours 	Tuition 	Required Fees 	Total
0-5 	$644.13 	$233.15 	$877.28
6-8 	$1,288.25 	$466.30 	$1,754.55
9-11 	$1,932.38 	$699.45 	$2,631.83
12+ 	$2,576.50 	$932.60 	$3,509.10

Hours 	Tuition 	Required Fees 	Total
0-5 	$2,248.50 	$233.15 	$2,481.65
6-8 	$4,497.00 	$466.30 	$4,963.30
9-11 	$6,745.50 	$699.45 	$7,444.95
12+ 	$8,994.00 	$932.60 	$9,926.60

9/17/2011 8:17:24 PM

Hiro, let me lay some truth on you. Junior Engineer here from the great state of Pennsylvania. With just fin. aid, it was cheaper for me to come here than to go to the two flagship "publics" of my state (Penn State & Pitt). With scholarships, it is even cheaper. Seriously, NC is one of the cheapest states to go to college in, especially when UNC and State are dirt cheap. Don't complain about the tuition of State until you've lived in a state like PA where going to a good university is expensive as balls.


[Edited on September 17, 2011 at 9:34 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2011 9:32:39 PM

Quote :

"I have a friend who graduated with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering. He couldn't get a job as as a Teller, Cashier at local Lowes or Harris Teeter, Fast food, nothing."

Why did he tell them he had a degree?

If you just need any crappy job, just leave blank spots on the resume or only have your part time work through school on there. They are accustomed to bums applying for those positions, and so bad stuff is expected.

Leaving off an accomplishment that is irrelevant to a position is not lying. If it's irrelevant, it doesn't belong on there, anyway.

9/17/2011 9:44:56 PM

^It really kind of creates a trap though. Let's say you leave that stuff of you resume and you get a job at Teeter while you're looking for other jobs, and that takes six months. Do you then put on your resume that you were working at Harris Teeter so they know you're not just sitting around doing nothing all day but risk them not wanting to hire someone who would stoop so low as to work as a grocery bagger, or do you leave it off and let them wonder what you've been doing for the past two years? At that point, you're essentially forever locked out of the industry that you went to school for, and the best you can hope for in your career is maybe middle management at Teeter.

This is kind of getting away from the issue of waiving student loans as a stimulus plan, but the problem of being overqualified for some jobs and not experienced enough for others probably isn't as simple as "go cut grass for a living."

What we've really done here is created a generation that's going in two distinctly different directions. On one hand, there's the increasingly small number of people that have the connections/genuine ability/good fortune to get into the industry they want to be in. Great for those people, but there are not enough productive jobs out there for everyone. I guess you could start your own business, but you're probably going to have to go in debt to do that, and that's honestly not realistic for a lot of people. It's pretty tough to start a one-man Chemical Engineering firm, and it involves a level of risk that most people can't afford to take, particularly those paying off student loans. On the other hand, you've got the growing class of people who have the potential to provide actual contributions to society but are being locked into waiting tables, cutting grass, or bagging groceries, first by an immediate need for cash upon graduation and then by perceived the destruction of their resumes for immediately needing cash when they got out of school.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you aren't already rich before you go to school (or in general), god help you.

[Edited on September 17, 2011 at 11:18 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2011 11:18:01 PM

Quote :

"It really kind of creates a trap though. Let's say you leave that stuff of you resume and you get a job at Teeter while you're looking for other jobs, and that takes six months. Do you then put on your resume that you were working at Harris Teeter so they know you're not just sitting around doing nothing all day but risk them not wanting to hire someone who would stoop so low as to work as a grocery bagger, or do you leave it off and let them wonder what you've been doing for the past two years? At that point, you're essentially forever locked out of the industry that you went to school for, and the best you can hope for in your career is maybe middle management at Teeter."

Oh my route isn't any kind of good solution, just perhaps the best of bad options when you need food on the table and student debts paid.

Given the starting point, you're resume certainly isn't worse off by working at HT. Taking the job at HT didn't lock you out of your field, not getting a job in your field immediately after graduation did. HT doesn't worsen that, but it does pay bills.

Quote :

"What we've really done here is created a generation that's going in two distinctly different directions. On one hand, there's the increasingly small number of people that have the connections/genuine ability/good fortune to get into the industry they want to be in. Great for those people, but there are not enough productive jobs out there for everyone. I guess you could start your own business, but you're probably going to have to go in debt to do that, and that's honestly not realistic for a lot of people. It's pretty tough to start a one-man Chemical Engineering firm, and it involves a level of risk that most people can't afford to take, particularly those paying off student loans. On the other hand, you've got the growing class of people who have the potential to provide actual contributions to society but are being locked into waiting tables, cutting grass, or bagging groceries, first by an immediate need for cash upon graduation and then by perceived the destruction of their resumes for immediately needing cash when they got out of school."

Yep. The first year after college means more than any other year in life, career-wise. I got a great job (I thought), but was laid off within 4 months. Now, two years later, there is simply no way back into the industry without more debt and school (and then it's not guaranteed). So, I've started my own business with only about $3k of my own money invested (and no borrowing), while working 20 hours a week at a crap job with fantastic benefits to pay the bills.

I love the business I've started, but I don't know if it will ever completely support me by itself. Doing that on my own, with no employees and a few contractors, and keeping the benefits through my PT job will probably be my future for a long while.

In short - the first year after graduation can pretty easily determine your next 40 years, especially in a down-market. Now, boomers will be working longer because their retirement funds got decimated, and massive career stunting for today's mid-20's folks will continue.

[Edited on September 17, 2011 at 11:44 PM. Reason : a]

9/17/2011 11:35:29 PM

Quote :

"On one hand, there's the increasingly small number of people that have the connections/ genuine ability/good fortune to get into the industry they want to be in."

You don't have to have handed-down connections to get a job. You need experience as an undergrad, aka to work your ass off getting internships, co-ops, or professor research gigs. Hell, volunteer at a non-profit fir (undergrad or post-grad) and they may have connections. I did that when I was unemployed and ended up i being offered to go interview for a promisig startup company in Greensboro, not to mention rub elbows with the CEOs of all of the nanotech companies in RTP at a conference.

Shit is out there for people to do. No one knows how to look these days.

And if anyone wants I can pass on word about the nonprofit I volunteered at, its a growing NC nano-bio networking company (connecting businesses to meet their needs, not Greg H*yer bullshit)

9/18/2011 9:03:32 AM