Quote :

"could someone use deadly force to save you in that situation? would they have to be family to defend you in that way?"

No, you can use deadly force to protect a third party victim. Does not have to be family member. However, this is less likely to protect you against a potential charge, especially if you do not know the full situation, and you are incorrect. You *should* get the defense of self-defense, but the law is a fickle friend.

[Edited on November 1, 2011 at 4:01 PM. Reason : ]

11/1/2011 4:00:25 PM

well said

11/1/2011 4:01:50 PM

i feel like everyone should take the CC class even if theyre not carrying.

[Edited on November 1, 2011 at 4:04 PM. Reason : i need to]

11/1/2011 4:04:02 PM

Quote :

"Flash forward a few years to the other day. Once again, I am working for $10/hr as a general-purpose lackey at an event center. At the time I was directing traffic. My boss, not far away, was trying to tell a person he could not go onto the property. The guy ignored him. My boss pulled out a pistol and fired it into the ground. Now, it was definitely into the ground, and my suspicion is that it was a blank, just to get attention. But I gotta hand it to the interloper; he didn't even turn around. I was a hundred feet away and still almost shit my pants just at the sound. He just said, "You and I both know you aren't going to shoot me." Which was true, although my boss did tackle him (which struck me as something he should have tried before drawing his gun, but whatever). "

Your boss is an idiot. He should be charged with firing a gun in the city limits and possibly other charges too. He should have his concealed carry permit revoked if he has one. The guy who he tackled could have taken that weapon and turned the situation awry very quickly. That was a terribly irresponsible action by your boss and you should really think about protecting yourself from legal or personal safety issues from working with someone like that.

Quote :

"fist fights do not constitute the use of deadly force, so your argument is not valid. "

If someone picks a fight with you knowing you are carrying a weapon you have a duty to protect the weapon. If they are in a position to take the weapon from you (by beating the snot out of you) then your life is in danger. You do not have to wait until they are beating the crap out of you before you use deadly force to stop them.

You can be charged with manslaughter if you instigated the situation in way or if you ignored an opportunity to retreat from the situation though. Quite frankly, if you are carrying you better keep your cool at all times and remove yourself from any situations like this if you have the opportunity to do so.

Quote :

"could someone use deadly force to save you in that situation? would they have to be family to defend you in that way?"

If it's a catfight and some girl is pulling another girl's hair you'll never make the argument that the victim was in grave danger. If a healthy adult is stomping an unconscious person's head then you'd have a good case. However, if it turns out that the person who is getting the snot beat out of himself instigated the fight in the first place you can get charged with manslaughter if you use deadly force to stop the situation. If you don't know the full story from start to finish your best bet is not to get involved.

[Edited on November 1, 2011 at 4:34 PM. Reason : l]

11/1/2011 4:31:00 PM

Quote :

"Quite frankly, if you are carrying you better keep your cool at all times and remove yourself from any situations like this if you have the opportunity to do so. "

11/1/2011 4:48:24 PM

just play it coool boy, reeal cool

11/1/2011 4:50:38 PM

what fool thinks it's better to not "shoot to kill" in such situations? the more PC term is shoot center of mass. going for legs/head/etc. is dumb and more likely to end with a miss.

shoot to kill = center of mass = decisively and immediately terminating the threat

you only use deadly force when the situation calls for such (death, serious bodily injury, sexual assault)

though weak, one argument that could be used against you if you didn't "shoot to kill" would be that if you felt you didn't have to "shoot to kill" then the thread wasn't imminent/deadly/etc.

11/1/2011 5:00:59 PM

If you call it "shooting the center of mass" it dehumanizes the target. "Shoot to kill" keeps you honest about your intentions and the consequences of your actions.

The more things, even language, that keep you from pulling the trigger the better IMO.

11/1/2011 5:15:32 PM

well calling it "shooting center of mass" isn't really trying to dehumanize anything. it's telling you where you have the greatest chance of making contact and ending the threat.

wordsmith it all you want, but shooting center of mass is technically what you're doing, as opposed to a kill shot since shooting center of mass doesn't mean a kill shot.

the phrase "shoot to kill" really means aiming for the most probable place for a hit and in other words, killing the threat, not necessarily the person.

a more likely kill shot would be a head shot, which is NOT the best idea due to your chances of a hit decreasing.

[Edited on November 1, 2011 at 5:27 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on November 1, 2011 at 5:27 PM. Reason : .]

11/1/2011 5:26:30 PM

You don't know how you wil react when you are in a situation where using deadly force is necessary...you only have a split second to react...this isn't a sniper situation...you pretty much just point the gun at the person and shoot...you probably don't know if you hit them our not because youre probably running in the opposite direction

11/1/2011 7:04:04 PM

In my mind, the "center of mass" euphemism is really more about not fueling anti-gun types or dead fuckhead sympathizers portraying you as a bloodthirsty, maniacal threat to society.

11/1/2011 7:24:55 PM

^^that's why you train and always talk center of mass, hoping that you will end up aiming and shooting there. obviously if you're in that situation you may not have the time/ability to think and aim there, but you would never not aim there on purpose (as some think you should).

^no

11/1/2011 7:56:39 PM

You can train all you want...You can stand at a range and have perfect accuracy and be the most comfortable person with a gun...but even when you train you are never in the situation where you are pumping the adrenaline that you will experience if you are unlucky enough to be in that situation.

Yes training might help...but honestly a life or death situation is a hell of a lot different than sitting in a CC class and going out to the range once a week.

11/1/2011 9:07:09 PM

^ makes me think of Quantum Of Solace (sigh she was so much hotter in hitman)

11/1/2011 9:10:55 PM

Quote :

""shoot to kill" really means aiming for the most probable place for a hit"

How are we saying "shoot to kill" and "shoot to most likely hit" are the same thing?

11/1/2011 9:21:59 PM

^ shoot to kill basically means "don't shoot at their arms or legs, shoot at their torso because it's the largest target and if you hit them then it's the quickest way to stop them because it will disrupt their body's ability to function much more effectively than a shot leg will and a side effect of this bodily disruption is quite possibly death"

11/1/2011 9:48:04 PM

i didnt realize this idea was that difficult to grasp

11/1/2011 9:55:13 PM

damn that's crazy. did you get your assignment? Aaron got Nicaragua (iirc) after months of bullshit and hasle from the PC. who knew it was so hard to arrange volunteer work in developing countries

11/1/2011 10:31:03 PM

Quote :

"You can train all you want...You can stand at a range and have perfect accuracy and be the most comfortable person with a gun...but even when you train you are never in the situation where you are pumping the adrenaline that you will experience if you are unlucky enough to be in that situation. Yes training might help...but honestly a life or death situation is a hell of a lot different than sitting in a CC class and going out to the range once a week."

stop. just stop. you are failing to grasp the basic concept and the sometimes used idea of shooting non-center of mass to stop a threat. we are talking theory, not reality. in reality, if you have to use deadly force, many will only have time/ability just point at their attacker and shoot, everyone knows that. the basic idea in your head during training, discussion, etc. should be center of mass. and if one were in the situation where they could actually concentrate long enough, the target should be center of mass, never anywhere else. and believe it or not, training can help condition one to automatically aim for center of mass.

Quote :

"How are we saying "shoot to kill" and "shoot to most likely hit" are the same thing?"

maybe you should try reading and comprehending entire posts.

[Edited on November 1, 2011 at 10:33 PM. Reason : .]

11/1/2011 10:32:01 PM

Well I am talking about reality...and you will never know what reality feels like until you are actually in that situation.

11/1/2011 10:42:17 PM

11/1/2011 11:07:18 PM

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you had been in this situation and therefore you know for a fact how you would react in that situation. I hope you didn't go into too much debt having to pay a lawyer to get the you out of the assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill charge that was put on you for using deadly force for self defense.

I promise you...while I haven't personally had to ever shoot someone...I am not talking out of my ass here.

11/1/2011 11:13:14 PM

Quote :

"But I gotta hand it to the interloper; he didn't even turn around."

That's awesome, but he probably just spends a lot of time around gunfire. A couple of hours at my local wildlife club ranges makes me barely even notice the sound.

I do think it's funny the parking guys care enough to fire a gun and then tackle someone. You're just not getting paid enough for that kind of protection of the blacktop (or field, as the case may be.) A healthy bit of Clerks attitude is what is needed in a job such as this.

11/1/2011 11:35:37 PM

Quote :

"I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you had been in this situation and therefore you know for a fact how you would react in that situation. I hope you didn't go into too much debt having to pay a lawyer to get the you out of the assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill charge that was put on you for using deadly force for self defense. I promise you...while I haven't personally had to ever shoot someone...I am not talking out of my ass here."

my god you are pure stupid

11/2/2011 7:41:11 AM

Quote :

"A healthy bit of Clerks attitude is what is needed in a job such as this. "

"I'm not even supposed to be here today" ?



also, sawahash, you trolling at this point. nobody gives a shit about your angle, and rest assured the people who have a CCP understand the consequences of carrying/drawing/pointing/firing a concealed handgun.

11/2/2011 8:04:53 AM

so yeah, back on topic

we've got a fairly relaxed environment where I work, just about everyone carries and there are miscellaneous firearms and ammunition throughout the building. God help the person who tries to commit a violent crime here.

and its pretty nice to be able to go out back during lunch and shoot a few targets

11/2/2011 10:34:34 AM

^Where in the hell do you work?

11/2/2011 10:39:33 AM

I felt it was appropriate that I, Agent 0 post in this thread.

11/2/2011 10:46:33 AM

11/2/2011 10:47:48 AM

i work in rural SC

our building is on private land adjacent to a small airport (1 rwy, 5000ft) so its all open land for about 300yds in any direction. can't shoot towards roads or the airport though, so our max distance is only about 100yds into a berm on our property

11/2/2011 10:49:53 AM

Pick One.

11/2/2011 10:51:36 AM