11/22/2011 6:58:23 PM

Quote :

"You don't have to go home, but you can't protest here?"

exactly, they were told to leave, but not told to go home.

11/22/2011 7:05:24 PM

the public square: not so public

11/22/2011 7:08:19 PM

Do Republicans/Conservatives automatically have to side with the cops on this one because they don't like the protesters even if it goes against their own ideology? Because I sure fucking see a lot of that these days.

11/22/2011 7:17:25 PM

Quote :

"so, you are a lawyer and don't even understand that you can't pitch a tent wherever you damned well feel like it? no wonder our legal system is so fucked up."

ThatGoodLock isn't a lawyer yet, I don't believe. And once he does become a lawyer, he's going to have to learn to separate fact scenarios given in a casebook or exam prompt from real life. I don't think there's ever been a situation where the officer said "pardon me sir, I'm going to have to touch you to remove you." and the protester responded "I know you have the right to remove me sir, but I'm going to sit here peacefully as resistance."

11/22/2011 7:23:23 PM

not a Republican.

When you're told by a cop to leave, then told if you don't leave you'll get sprayed, then get shown the spray, and you still stay, its your own dumbass fault for getting sprayed.


Tell you what, next time a cop tells you what to do, don't do it and see what happens.

All I'm saying is that these protesters being jackasses got us talking about pepper spray than talking about the issues. That in and of itself hurts their cause, because now I don't care about their cause, I now am concerned with how I feel & what I think about the pepper spray - which I think was justified.

11/22/2011 7:24:40 PM

What I hear you saying is that the cops were in the right because they're cops.

Which makes no sense at all.

Just because an officer says "I'm going to pepper spray you" and then follows through, doesn't mean he was correct in doing so.

11/22/2011 7:32:11 PM

No, I'm saying that they were right b/c they went thru the proper steps. They told the protesters to move, then they warned if they didn't disperse they'd get sprayed, then they got sprayed.

I know some people are up in arms about the fact that the cops used pepper spray. Pepper spray is (from what I read), in most departments, used in lieu of physical force to make a subject to comply. If the cop were to use physical force to pick up the protesters and move them, and the protesters would've resisted, then we would be talking about the physical force the cop(s) used to get the protesters to stop resisting.


Its outrageous, that the police would use non physical means of making people comply with a lawful order; instead of doing what they did before these methods were available.

11/22/2011 7:57:13 PM

Quote :

"not really. as someone else stated, pepper spray is probably listed as being lower on the chain of force. that's their damned reason for using it before they resorted to physically removing the people."

Yeah, pepper spraying and then physically removing someone is lower on the chain than just physically removing them... Were they even told that they were under arrest before being pepper sprayed?

Quote :

"moreover, if people associated with the same damned movement somewhere else acted a certain way, then you are a damned moron to naively say "well, these guys are different people. maybe they will be nice. yeaaahhh...", especially when these morons are behaving in exactly the same way as the other morons."

It doesn't matter. The cop jumped the gun (no pun intended) and went from point A to point C in conflict mitigation. Instead of judging how they react when trying to remove them with as little force as possible, they went ahead and just pepper sprayed them down. It's like assaulting a black guy at night, you know, because a black guy at night will likely assault you so if you get to him before he gets to you, you did nothing wrong.

I don't think pre-self-defense has ever been used successfully as a legal defense.

Quote :

"They didn't get a permit IIRC, they had set up tents despite the fact that that is illegal and they wouldn't remove them. "

Since when have you needed a permit to protest on a sidewalk? I have yet to find where it said putting up tents was "illegal." If it was indeed illegal, then they should have arrested the owners of the tents (it is wrong to assume that everyone there is the owner of a tent).

Quote :

"Then they wouldn't disperse when told to do so. Bam, you get arrested. That's how it works."

If a cop told you to bend over and take his dick up his ass, and you wouldn't and he pepper sprayed you and arrested you because you didn't comply, he would be in the right? So what you're saying is that cops now have the right to put their dick in our ass and our refusal is illegal.

The cops have no grounds to ask them to leave. Why do you think other places where cops have tried to remove protesters have been told to stop removing them because their removal is in direct violation of our 1st amendment right to protest?

Quote :

"would you want the police to just ignore a group of people who formed a chain around your house and wouldn't let you leave? What is your threshold for where the police should get involved? the police probably would have let everything go if the fuckers had just removed their tents and left, but the morons didn't. they pitched a temper tantrum and sat down. they escalated it, so they got what they had coming to them"

Depends. If the chain is formed using public property or with the consent of other property owner's property, then what have they done wrong? As long as they allow me to leave, what's the problem?

Being an "inconvenience" is not illegal. My threshold for police involvement is if someone is doing something illegal. If nothing illegal is taking place, then what are they supposed to do?

These people were on a sidewalk on public property (UC Davis is a public university, where it is owned and operated by the state), they were instructed to do something and they refused. If the police had no legal grounds to arrest them, then their action was completely unnecessary and illegal. The officer who pepper sprayed the students should be arrested and sent to jail for assault for each person who was pepper sprayed. If I pepper sprayed someone without a justifiable reason, that is what would happen to me.


I wish these students were protesting with guns (legally licensed) in their hands/pockets/ect. I doubt this shit would have happened if the police didn't feel like they could do anything they wanted to do with little risk/harm to themselves.

11/22/2011 7:57:29 PM

Quote :

"ThatGoodLock isn't a lawyer yet, I don't believe. And once he does become a lawyer, he's going to have to learn to separate fact scenarios given in a casebook or exam prompt from real life. I don't think there's ever been a situation where the officer said "pardon me sir, I'm going to have to touch you to remove you." and the protester responded "I know you have the right to remove me sir, but I'm going to sit here peacefully as resistance.""

isnt this fact pattern only ridiculous because it's such a best-case scenario? if so, don't you want to work towards best-case scenarios? why am i held back by your complacency with what stage our democracy is at? personally i expect better.

edit: and id like to point out that i'm expecting better behavior of the policemen, to the benefit of everyone involved, while all the anti-protesters in this thread have zero such confidence in a civil disobedient protest despite no evidence that the officers were immediately placed in danger even after using the chemical spray from those who were affected or those who witnessed it. the chanting and the silence that followed at the chancellor's house is a much more powerful delivery system than stooping to the police's use of force.

[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 8:17 PM. Reason : f]

11/22/2011 8:12:00 PM

11/23/2011 10:32:57 AM

Quote :

"The officer who pepper sprayed the students should be arrested and sent to jail for assault for each person who was pepper sprayed. If I pepper sprayed someone without a justifiable reason, that is what would happen to me. I wish these students were protesting with guns (legally licensed) in their hands/pockets/ect. I doubt this shit would have happened if the police didn't feel like they could do anything they wanted to do with little risk/harm to themselves."

1. He had a reason, and he told them several times, even showing them the pepper spray.

2. You have got to be kidding me. You're wondering what would happen when armed people confront the police?

11/23/2011 10:45:03 AM

Look...if our founding fathers listened to guys like you, we'd be talking like bitchmade British faggos and/or German.

11/23/2011 10:48:11 AM

I thought this thread would feature more pepperspraying cop photos. But apparently this is just another place to discuss the same (overstated, well-known) two sides of the protesting argument some more.


If only there were another thread (or two, or three...) to handle that kind of discussion.




I.E. - MORE PHOTOSHOPS, LESS ARGUING.

11/23/2011 10:52:15 AM

^4 ahahahaha

11/23/2011 10:53:22 AM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058EOAUE?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1

Quote :

"My Bourgeoisie Buddies and I have searched long and far for a solution to our dreadful issues with the Proletariat's irresponsible and unreasonable demands for equality and compassion. Hark! A solution reveals itself! Upon ordering this wonderment of crowd dispersal, we were giddy and talked a fortnight (over several bottles of scotch and fine cigars) about how our lives will be so much more livable when we've silenced the working class once and for all! On receiving the package I squealed with glee. I took my lovely new tool outside and sprayed several unarmed, non-violent lesser people in the face several times. Let them never say that this tool cannot get the job done! Though I was unable to get them to promise to never return, based on their screaming, sobbing, and clenching of their faces, I am quite sure this tool has done the trick. No more will they request a far wage or benefits! No more will they question our business ethics (ha!), and no more will I need to pay for their children to have food in their bellies every night or their bodies free of cancer. Ha ha! My only regret is that I hadn't opted for overnight delivery! (Damn you, mounted couriers! Why don't you get REAL jobs like us?!). Go, proletariat! Let this tool be a warning! Go infest your diseased homes with dirt floors! If you were one of the chosen ones (like us) and not such vermin (like you), you could live such a life as us with our wondrous spray, corporate tax breaks/personhood and indoor plumbling! "

11/23/2011 11:13:02 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, pepper spraying and then physically removing someone is lower on the chain than just physically removing them... Were they even told that they were under arrest before being pepper sprayed?"

Uh, yeah, it is lower on the use of force continuum employed by many law enforcement agencies.

Is it a requirement that an officer advise an offender that they are under arrest prior to deploying pepper spray?

11/23/2011 11:30:32 AM

11/23/2011 11:38:49 AM

So i've changed my stance on this.

pepper spray is ultimately a "food product." So this is ultimately like getting up in arms over a food fight.

At least that's what I learned from a very smart man by the name of Bill O'Reilly.

Another such "food product" is mustard gas. I wonder if that would have been cheaper to use than pepper spray. They should really look into that.

11/23/2011 11:43:01 AM

Quote :

"Useless Product - does not reliably cause children's eyes to bleed, November 22, 2011 By david mc manus (New York, NY United States) - See all my reviews This review is from: Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band/1.3% Blue Band Pepper Spray (Misc.) I can't believe some of the positive reviews this product has received!!!! I remember a time in the 1960s when we had the backbone in this country to combat civil disobedience with bullets and baton charges. The liberals have absolutely runined this country and the fact that we have to rely on useless toys such as this "pepper spray" to combat violent insurrection makes me weep (oh the irony). I teach middle school and after reading some of the raves on here purchased a canister of this pepper spray to keep in my desk drawer. Just last week several brats in my class (you know the kind - the 'readers') decided to hold a poetry "sit-in" for 20 minutes during recess. They said they were doing it in "solidarity" with the Occupy Wall Street movement. I know sedition when I see it and wasn't going to allow such violent resistance to authority to occur for even one minute. As soon as they got on the gym floor and linked arms I did what any real American would - grabbed the canister and pointed the nozzle directly into their eyes. Oh sure, there was screaming and the usual crybaby hysteria but only a few of the students actually bled and doctors at the local trauma center said that the effects will only be permanent on three of the little Marxists - the rest will have no physically lasting effects. Product is total garbage - you'd actually be better off with a reliable cattle prod"

11/23/2011 11:44:44 AM

i know who i want to spray me down

11/23/2011 12:32:13 PM

She should volunteer to take a shot to the face to prove her point

11/23/2011 12:35:57 PM

Quote :

"I wish these students were protesting with guns (legally licensed) in their hands/pockets/ect. I doubt this shit would have happened if the police didn't feel like they could do anything they wanted to do with little risk/harm to themselves.""

I can't imagine California public universities allowing guns on campus for any reason. On top of that, most liberal hippies hate guns more than capitalism.

11/23/2011 12:48:32 PM

11/23/2011 12:49:47 PM

^^ And never mind they could throw the book at you for threatening an officer with a firearm, regardless of whether you actually were.

11/23/2011 12:57:49 PM

11/23/2011 12:59:07 PM

Quote :

"pepper spray is ultimately a "food product." So this is ultimately like getting up in arms over a food fight. At least that's what I learned from a very smart man by the name of Bill O'Reilly. Another such "food product" is mustard gas. I wonder if that would have been cheaper to use than pepper spray. They should really look into that."

The mustard gas part is wrong... although I know it was stupid to try to correct that.

[Edited on November 23, 2011 at 1:01 PM. Reason : ]

11/23/2011 1:00:05 PM

lol

11/23/2011 1:01:12 PM

Quote :

"Uh, yeah, it is lower on the use of force continuum employed by many law enforcement agencies. Is it a requirement that an officer advise an offender that they are under arrest prior to deploying pepper spray?"

Sooooo....

Let me see if I understand this right. The use of force to arrest someone is higher than pepper spraying them and using force?

Sounds to me like you are giving the police short cuts and other avenues for police misconduct.

How about pepper spraying be a part of the standard protocol for arrests?

Get pulled over for speeding? - pepper sprayed (you could have a gun)
Getting arrested for a simple possession charge? Pepper sprayed (you could have a knife on you)

Do you not see how stupid it is for cops to go immediately for pepper spray? The use of force should ALWAYS be the first step. I'm not saying they have to kick them, but they need to at least try to arrest the offenders before pepper spraying them. There was no ATTEMPT to even try arresting them.

And incase you haven't noticed pepper spray is used inconjunction with physical force.


And of course they need to be told they are under arrest before using pepper spray if it possible. There is no reason to pepper spray anyone if they are not under arrest.

These were people who were sitting down. What threat did they fucking pose????

11/23/2011 1:02:20 PM

This one cracks me up every time and I don't really know why.




[Edited on November 23, 2011 at 1:12 PM. Reason : b]

11/23/2011 1:06:28 PM

Quote :

"The use of force should ALWAYS be the first step."

OC Spray is a use of force, albeit a very ineffective one. Unless you plan on spraying people like this, its not a very good tool. As I have previously stated a force continuum (bad name) is not linear. You don't have to go from Option A to B to C, etc. You can start out at deadly force without having to tell someone they are under arrest or even to drop the gun. Police encounters are rapidly evolving situations (Graham v. Connor).

For most agencies, the use of OC spray is in the same category as hard hand strikes, ECD's, etc which would be used against an actively resisting, but no assaultive subject. Passively resisting, non assaultive, i.e. sitting on the sidewalked, can require force but that force would most likely be your pressure points.

11/23/2011 1:22:13 PM

Quote :

"Sounds to me like you are giving the police short cuts and other avenues for police misconduct. "

I'm not giving them short cuts at all. I'm pointing out that they likely followed protocol in handling the situation.

The argument behind pepper spray being employed prior to hard hands has to do with the risk of injury to both officer and offender is supposed to be reduced when pepper spray is used.

On another topic, the 'its basically food' argument is a completely idiotic justification for its use. Sure, it is nothing more than oleoresin capsicum and people have spiced their food with their spray, but thats hardly reason to go blasting people in the face with it.

11/23/2011 1:26:31 PM

Quote :

"The mustard gas part is wrong... although I know it was stupid to try to correct that."

er, i know this, but you realize i'm satirizing the fox news crowd, right?

11/23/2011 1:37:33 PM

remember when they broke their permits and crossed from public to private properties??

i mean yeh these people are the shit of the earth, but you can't fault them, they at least obey the law to a fucking T and move when they are told to move.



im already loling at the responses somebody is going to use to try to defend OWS breaking the law openly vs these guys openly obeying the law.

11/23/2011 1:42:46 PM

Quote :

"I'm not giving them short cuts at all. I'm pointing out that they likely followed protocol in handling the situation."

you don't get placed on administrative leave for following protocol. protocol in this case would have been to not follow normal protocol for everyday use but whatever procedures are in place for a peaceful protest or if not to take the time and develop a plan. that's why what we are arguing and what you are arguing with don't mesh. i have yet to hear a single acknowledgement from any dissenters in this thread or otherwise that protocol isn't a catchall for every situation, you apply it as necessary. and since in this case the police officers were not in any situation which called for fast on their feet thinking they should have used that time to establish what was and was not necessary in this situation which they did not. regardless if they were breaking the law, which for some reason pack_bryan thinks that everyone is denying. that they were breaking the law at all is not the end of the analysis such that you get to rush right into normal protocol.

11/23/2011 5:06:12 PM

what changed?

Quote :

"Pike has been honored twice for meritorious service, including a 2006 incident when he decided against using pepper spray against a patient in the campus hospital who was threatening his colleagues with scissors."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57329900/uc-davis-pepper-spray-cop-once-lauded/

now where's your protocol argument against an armed individual?

11/23/2011 5:15:40 PM

11/23/2011 5:18:45 PM

I wish I fight suck at photoshop

so many ideas

11/23/2011 11:42:47 PM

Quote :

"I FIGHT SUCK"

11/23/2011 11:44:09 PM

hahaha fucking swype

11/24/2011 12:11:42 AM

Glad to see that the OWS people are back to doing the one thing they are good and effective at...photoshop and captions

11/24/2011 12:34:01 AM

11/24/2011 1:08:24 AM

11/27/2011 11:20:13 PM

Here's what I'm betting happened on the Day of the Gas: A campus cop--one of the 99% that the Occupy protesters are championing--looked at a bunch of envious kids who'd missed the great era of protests and Woodstock that their forebears experienced. All they've got at UC Davis is a pitiful little sit-in, but they're arm-locked and caterwauling and making the most of it.

After watching the scene for several hours, something like this goes through the campus cop's head: "I'm not busting my hump trying to untangle these entitled little twits and hauling their butts away for a few hours, which will only make their day and bring them back feistier tomorrow. My sciatica is killing me and I can already feel the arthritis in my hip and I don't get paid enough for this kind of truss-busting crap, so I'm gonna give them a taste of Come-to-Jesus juice. And if that doesn't make them go home, screw it." Then he casually strolled along the seated row and let them have it.


The upside to all of this is that the kids now have a cherished memory that will be a hot topic at every rave and beer bash for the rest of their college lives and beyond:

"Where were you on the day we took poison gas?"

"I was writhing in pain, bro!"

"Like broken glass in my eyes!"

"My whole body was on fire, man!"

"Why oh why did I pick that day to go surfing?"

"You missed a blast, dude. It was awesome!"

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-wambaugh-uc-davis-police-20111127,0,1853351.story

11/28/2011 6:03:14 PM

11/29/2011 10:43:18 AM

[Edited on December 6, 2011 at 7:07 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on December 6, 2011 at 7:10 PM. Reason : ..]

12/6/2011 7:06:31 PM