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5/23/2012 3:21:59 PM

Quote :

"On the other hand, there is a perception among skeptics that all doctors are necessarily better than any given practitioner of alternative medicine, which I think is bullshit. "

Non-woo is necessarily better than woo. Science is necessarily better than psuedoscience. Are there exceptions to every rule? Are there some terrible doctors? Are there some practitioners of alternative medicine that but for single adherence to woo are good doctors? Of course.

This is why a science and evidence-based approach is the best approach to determining efficacy of different medical modalities. Anecdotes are bullshit and there's a lot of bad medicine (and non-medicine masquerading as medicine).

The only group of people that don't speak in absolutes are the skeptics. (generally speaking of course )


As an aside, I would totally find a different doctor if mine recommended acupuncture and probably if they recommended chiropractic.

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 3:29 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2012 3:27:52 PM

Quote :

"As an aside, I would totally find a different doctor if mine recommended acupuncture and probably if they recommended chiropractic."

See this is the part I don't get. You think a doctor would be an idiot for recommending a low risk practice that has several major organizations recommending it (NIH, WHO) and many studies indicating it could be effective in certain cases just because it sounds like woo.

But if your doctor pulled out totally unsubstantiated claims that never had any scientific backing, such as "saturated fat causes heart disease", you (if not you, most skeptics) would be totally on board just because it doesn't sound like woo.

I like to consider myself a skeptic (Atheist Experience is my favorite podcast evar), but this across-the-board hatred for everything non-mainstream confuses me.

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 5:23 PM. Reason : hasgsdfasdf]

5/23/2012 5:20:07 PM

I've been to what I would consider both types of chiropractor: one basically did not do the kind of adjustments that you normally think of, and felt like a holistic experience. I couldn't tell that the procedure actually did anything helpful, and I probably felt better mostly due to my side of the treatment process by using ice and resting.

The current chiropractic practice that I visit took me from barely able to walk after an injury and got me back to work in a few weeks and back to running and the gym within a few short months. Again, I take care of half the equation by using ice when I notice swelling, lifting properly, and getting enough rest. But, that's true with most doctors, just like brushing and flossing between dental visits.

I'm sure the treatments aren't a placebo effect because I can actually see a difference in range of motion, pain level (if I'm fighting off lower back swelling), and better quality sleep. For me, having a copay occasionally is a lot better than being out of work.

5/23/2012 8:03:59 PM

^^You call it non-mainstream. What it is really is non-scientific. It's non-substantiated.

I prefer the people from whom I buy goods and services not sell me bullshit. It's a rule of thumb, really.

What about reiki? Or homeopathy? There are millions of people who swear by them and I'm sure I can find an organization that lists them as "low-risk alternatives" to traditional medical modalities.

5/24/2012 8:46:12 AM

Homeopathy has been shown in studies to be effective in certain cases. Granted a lot of it is BS, but the effects of herbs such as lavender are well studied and nobody believes they are more than temporary fixes to whatever the issue is.

5/24/2012 8:58:26 AM

Quote :

"What it is really is non-scientific. It's non-substantiated. "

It's been proven that acupuncture works better than placebo in many instances. It's a little rash to brush it off just because we don't know exactly why it works, when there's no downfall to trying it out. Obviously I'd be concerned if my doctor suggested it for a cancer treatment, but for something like migraines or neck pain where it has been shown to work, why the hell not?

[Edited on May 24, 2012 at 9:06 AM. Reason : .]

5/24/2012 9:02:49 AM

See, both of those replies are what I'm talking about.

Homeopathy hasn't been proven to work in any circumstance, and there are no "herbs such as lavender" in any homeopathic solution. It's been diluted to the point of ridiculousness. It's just water.

And it's been proven that in acupuncture it doesn't even matter where you put the needles or whether you use real needles at all.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/03/sham-acupuncture-is-better-than-true-acu/ if you're interested.

It doesn't matter how many people you line up to say "it works!" It doesn't matter how many medical organizations put it in their endorsement because they know they can sell it. If you can't explain how it works or why it works then it's bullshit. The placebo effect is well documented and some of you may think that it's ethical to sell people remedies based on it, but I don't.

Quote :

"Obviously I'd be concerned if my doctor suggested it for a cancer treatment, but for something like migraines or neck pain where it has been shown to work, why the hell not?"

The bottom line is you should prefer a solution based on science and not meridians or sublaxtions. It may work, it may not. It may paralyze you for life, it may not. To me, it's not worth the risk or the cost if it's not supported by evidence. (difficulty rating: anecdotes are not evidence).

[Edited on May 24, 2012 at 9:23 AM. Reason : .]

5/24/2012 9:21:23 AM

Quote :

"Homeopathy hasn't been proven to work in any circumstance, and there are no "herbs such as lavender" in any homeopathic solution. It's been diluted to the point of ridiculousness. It's just water. "

You are correct. I am confusing homeopathy with aromatherapy.

5/24/2012 9:29:58 AM

I feel like this goes here:


I'm so tired of hearing about arnica from my coworker. Bump your knee? You should take some arnica. Bruise your shin? Arnica. Your mom has ovarian cancer? You should have her take arnica.

ugh

5/24/2012 9:31:40 AM

lol wtf is arnica?

5/24/2012 9:34:19 AM

Quote :

"And it's been proven that in acupuncture it doesn't even matter where you put the needles or whether you use real needles at all. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/03/sham-acupuncture-is-better-than-true-acu/ if you're interested."

My guess is that the brain is tricked into sending out chemicals to deal with what it believes is a needle prick. Or maybe it's just placebo. Who knows? It's a harmless procedure that has been shown to make people feel better in certain instances, and that's good enough for me.

Quote :

"The bottom line is you should prefer a solution based on science"

I agree, but there sometimes isn't a good option.

Quote :

"The bottom line is you should prefer a solution based on science and not meridians or sublaxtions. It may work, it may not. It may paralyze you for life, it may not."

Whoa now. We are talking about acupuncture. Let's not move the goalposts.

Quote :

"You are correct. I am confusing homeopathy with aromatherapy."

lol

5/24/2012 9:42:56 AM

I've seen it like this, in my co worker's purse



they look like tiny sugar pills

Quote :

"Arnica tablet is a popular homeopathy product, derived from the perennial herb Arnica montana. Commonly referred to as leopard's bane, arnica plant can adapt in various climatic conditions. Upon maturity, it bears small, yellow colored, daisy like flowers. These arnica flowers and roots are used for the production of therapeutic products. Studies conducted on arnica have shown that it contains a high percentage of antioxidants, flavonoids, and other therapeutic ingredients. Commercially, arnica ointments for topical application and oral pills are most popular than other products such as syrups, sprays, oils, and tinctures."

She keeps saying how they help bruises go away faster... but really how does she know?

5/24/2012 9:43:22 AM

I think, from what I have read, that acupuncture is probably a waste of time in most cases. But if a doctor recommended it, I wouldn't think they were nearly as crazy as if they recommended homeopathy or reiki. The difference is that the former has mixed scientific evidence and the latter have strictly no positive evidence (besides also being clearly nonsense).

Quote :

"If you can't explain how it works or why it works then it's bullshit."

Pffft. Having a mechanism is great, but not having one doesn't mean something is bullshit.

James Lind (who supposedly conducted the first ever clinical trial) and others discovered very reasonable ways to prevent scurvy hundreds of years before Vitamin C was discovered.

5/24/2012 9:46:20 AM

Quote :

"My guess is that the brain is tricked into sending out chemicals to deal with what it believes is a needle prick. Or maybe it's just placebo. Who knows? It's a harmless procedure that has been shown to make people feel better in certain instances, and that's good enough for me."

a)it's not harmless. b)it's a placebo effect. c)you need higher standards.

Quote :

"Whoa now. We are talking about acupuncture. Let's not move the goalposts."

Acupuncture is based on meridians or chi. I'm not moving the goalposts.

Quote :

"I agree, but there sometimes isn't a good option."

I think writing off the entire orthopedic medical industry as "not a good option" is ridiculous.

5/24/2012 9:48:47 AM

Quote :

"James Lind (who supposedly conducted the first ever clinical trial) and others discovered very reasonable ways to prevent scurvy hundreds of years before Vitamin C was discovered."

A)There's a difference between the actual effect of vitamin c and the supposed effects of every alternative medicine suggested in this thread.

B)Maybe that level of evidence is ok 200 years ago.

Quote :

"besides also being clearly nonsense"

I just don't get how you can call reiki clearly nonsense but not acupuncture. They are essentially the same thing. And clearly homeopaths are tricking people into thinking they work. Maybe they're being tricked into sending chemicals to their brain too. Why are you just writing it off as nonsense?

5/24/2012 9:53:06 AM

the bf did a few sessions of acupuncture last month for his scalp issue. (Burning scalp, end of his rope, he's tried everything else) Most he got out of it was it was relaxing to him. Other than that, it did nothing else for him.

5/24/2012 9:53:15 AM

Quote :

"A)There's a difference between the actual effect of vitamin c and the supposed effects of every alternative medicine suggested in this thread."

Fine, but you still can't say mechanism is always required.

Quote :

"I just don't get how you can call reiki clearly nonsense but not acupuncture."

Seriously? Some reiki practitioners don't even touch you. They hold their hands slightly away from your body. I think putting fucking needles in your body could conceivably evoke a significant biological response as opposed to someone getting their hands close to your skin.

5/24/2012 9:59:04 AM

Quote :

"a)it's not harmless. b)it's a placebo effect. c)you need higher standards. "

a) It's nearly 100% harmless, no more than taking a pill. b) it's not proven that it's a placebo effect (see my post above). c) get off your high horse.

Quote :

"Acupuncture is based on meridians or chi. I'm not moving the goalposts."

It has roots in "alternative" medicine, but it has been scientifically shown to work (again, see my explanation above). You do not know that it's placebo. I do not know that it's not, either.

Quote :

"I think writing off the entire orthopedic medical industry as "not a good option" is ridiculous."

Dude, you have an awful tendency to use strawman assumptions in your arguments.

Many people have exhausted the orthpedic fucking medical industry and can't find can't find a suitable treatment for some reason or another. And personally, I'd rather try acupuncture once to see if it worked on me, before being forced to take pain or migraine medication 24/7.

5/24/2012 9:59:12 AM

You were already implying that "people have exhausted the entire..." and that's what I'm addressing. I'm not sure how you can call that a strawman but whatever.

^^it does not matter if they even use needles. It does not matter where they place the needles. Fake needles that don't puncture your skin work better. I don't see how this is significantly different than just waiving your hands over someone's skin. If it "tricks them into feeling better" what's the difference?

5/24/2012 10:05:34 AM

^I just read that "sham acupuncture" article and found it pretty damning.

I think you missed my point about calling this stuff nonsense. I meant that if you were to describe acupuncture, homeopathy, and reiki to a person on the street, they would immediately recognize there's no way 2 out of 3 could even have a plausible effect.

5/24/2012 10:27:57 AM

Quote :

""a)it's not harmless"

Not trying to use this as an argument as it's more of an aside, plus I don't know the answer. But I'd love to see some statistics on how many people walk out of an acupuncturist or chiropractor with a major issue caused by that activity, as opposed to the number of people that walk out of orthopedics's tables with a worse injury or addicted to pain killers (and if you want to nitpick, obviously I don't mean "walk out" literally...just down the road)

5/24/2012 10:28:51 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture#Adverse_events

5/24/2012 10:33:35 AM

Quote :

"If you can't explain how it works or why it works then it's bullshit."

You really missed the point of science. Science is the best way to gain knowledge about how the world works, but science never assumes that the unexplained is "bullshit". There are many things that we don't fully understand.

In your quest to be perfectly a skeptical and logical person, you've actually failed to recognize the limitations of science. Many of the things discussed in this thread are, in fact, not proven or at least not understood. That does not necessarily make them bullshit.

[Edited on May 24, 2012 at 10:58 AM. Reason : ]

5/24/2012 10:54:02 AM

Quote :

"You were already implying that "people have exhausted the entire..." and that's what I'm addressing. I'm not sure how you can call that a strawman but whatever."

Then clearly I wasn't writing it off.

Quote :

"^^it does not matter if they even use needles. It does not matter where they place the needles. Fake needles that don't puncture your skin work better. I don't see how this is significantly different than just waiving your hands over someone's skin. If it "tricks them into feeling better" what's the difference?"

The fake needle group doesn't know that fake needles are being used. My point earlier was that the brain believes that the skin is being pricked with a needle, so maybe it sends out chemicals that are somehow beneficial. We know the brain is capable of being "tricked" in many different ways, so it's not exactly a wild hypothesis.

5/24/2012 10:54:47 AM

^^

Because everyone in every online debate is a semantic blowhard, allow me to restate.

If you can't explain how it works or why it works then it's almost certainly bullshit, and if someone is trying to sell it to you it's even more likely that it's bullshit.

5/24/2012 11:06:03 AM

Quote :

"If you can't explain how it works or why it works then it's almost certainly bullshit"

We don't know how acupuncture works, but it has demonstrable effects.*

Psych meds are a great example of medicine that would be non-scientific by your standards. Drugs are developed for one purpose, and eventually used for an entirely different purpose, because of experimental findings. It's also been shown that placebo works just as well in many cases where drugs are prescribed.

*DISCLAIMER: I realize that traditional acupuncture is bullshit. The act of acupuncture, however, has real effects, whether it's placebo or not.

5/24/2012 11:22:07 AM

ttt

Pretty fervent arguments for/against seeing a chiropractor. I've considered trying it, but would like to hear other opinions.

Also, how much does this kind of thing cost?

2/19/2013 9:15:20 PM

Depends. Your insurance may cover it or at the least be classified as a specialist copay. With my insurance I get 24 visits a year included with my policy. After that its $30 a pop.

2/19/2013 10:33:26 PM

I know it is pseudoscience, but it can't all be placebo effect considering the tens of thousands of people who swear by it and say that it helps them?

Anyway, I watched this video, and was blown away. Wondering if it can really help like that, and if I should try? Not that I can think of any specific alignment or joint complaint, but maybe those chiropractors can find stuff when they see you. Anyway, they do adjustment of bones/joints but it is for treating a myriad of illnesses and conditions, not just bone/joint problems.

I would love to undergo what I see in the video!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=918999048144776

Anybody got stuff like that done?
What was it for?
Did it help?
How did all the cracking feel, cuz it looks/sounds insane!

4/13/2015 1:01:31 AM

I don't know what is on the video, but I am a fan of chiropractic adjustments. I've been going once a month for 5+ years and I have been migraine free. Prior to getting adjusted I would have 1-2 severe migraines a month.

4/13/2015 11:51:42 AM

my wife has gone during both of her pregnancies and swears by it

4/13/2015 11:53:56 AM