Quote :

"i still believe that if they DO offer an advantage, even a small one, that's unfair to the other athletes"

any advantages they may be merited are absolutely cancelled out by the difficulty of using. try wearing super slick, fast shoes that you actually have to wear on one foot stilts

8/4/2012 11:50:27 PM

I think that from just an intellectual standpoint it's an interesting debate. Even beyond the basic mechanics and preparation it takes to get to that moment. . .but how much motor planning and brain power has to be devoted by the natural able bodied athlete and the modified athlete. . .I'd love to hook them up while they're running to see.

8/4/2012 11:53:50 PM

Quote :

"'m speaking from a purely objective standpoint...it's not the road to get where he is that counts in the competition, it's the competition itself and so, all things being equal (or, rather, irrelevant), IF he has a mechanical advantage of any kind, that's unfair to the others again, i feel the need to point out that i have nothing but respect for him...i just don't think it's fair to the other athletes "

+1 quag. well put.

8/4/2012 11:55:12 PM

Quote :

"Yes, but wouldn't you think that any basic mechanical advantage may be outweighed by the level of skill and reeducation of the body's natural inclinations?"

No.

8/4/2012 11:55:24 PM

They need to ban fast-twitch muscle fiber

8/4/2012 11:55:31 PM

unfair

8/4/2012 11:57:47 PM

You know what else is unfair, Amendment 1.



Sorry, I don't know why I thought of that.

8/4/2012 11:58:19 PM

Quote :

"IF he has a mechanical advantage of any kind, that's unfair to the others"

but thats not the point at hand, the point is that he is at a disadvantage. if you think a bunch of metal and plastic can replace the human foot then I dont know what else to do but challenge you to try

8/4/2012 11:58:32 PM

I think some handicapped kid just pee peed in someone's cornflakes.

8/5/2012 12:01:34 AM

They have their own Olympics. So I for one, think he nor anyone else with artificial limbs, should be allowed to compete.

8/5/2012 12:04:24 AM

Saps is full of shit I saw him run down a cheetah once

8/5/2012 12:04:30 AM

Quote :

"but thats not the point at hand, the point is that he is at a disadvantage."

Your entire argument is that he is at a disadvantage because it is hard to use. Nevermind that he uses less energy, experiences less fatigue and is lighter. Just because it is hard to use, does not mean he is at a disadvantage.

[quote] if you think a bunch of metal and plastic can replace the human foot then I dont know what else to do but challenge you to try[quote]

Cars and wheel chairs have done a pretty damn good job at replacing the human foot in both being easier and faster to use.

8/5/2012 12:08:11 AM

both of those are horrible analogies

Quote :

"Nevermind that he uses less energy, experiences less fatigue"

are you kidding me?

Quote :

"Just because it is hard to use"

and why do you think its hard to use? see above (hint hint, its the exact opposite of your quote)

8/5/2012 12:13:50 AM

I think we should allow amputees to compete on Segways.



[Edited on August 5, 2012 at 12:21 AM. Reason : Bow to your robot overlords.]

8/5/2012 12:20:34 AM

Quote :

"both of those are horrible analogies "

Less energy and less fatigue isn't a fucking analogy. It's a fucking fact that was previously posted...

Quote :

"are you kidding me? and why do you think its hard to use? see above (hint hint, its the exact opposite of your quote)"

So why does ease of use suddenly put him at a disadvantage when you seemingly ignore the advantages that he does have?

Are you seriously telling us there are no advantages to what he is using? None? That it does not reduce his weight? That he does not use less energy or potentially experience less fatigue?

Yeah, I don't doubt that they are difficult to use, but he has obviously overcome those difficulties. Perseverance is absolutely no reason to give someone an advantage over anyone else.

8/5/2012 12:24:33 AM

Quote :

"Less energy and less fatigue isn't a fucking analogy"

did I really need to point out what analogy I was referencing? REALLY? if so I'm out, dont like arguing with idiots

Quote :

"So why does ease of use suddenly put him at a disadvantage when you seemingly ignore the advantages that he does have?"

please find me one study that says he has a clear advantage

Quote :

"Are you seriously telling us there are no advantages to what he is using?"

absolutely, you know why? because I've worn them and know from first hand knowledge...outside of you who just makes assumptions based upon what they see

Quote :

"Yeah, I don't doubt that they are difficult to use"

it almost angers me how little you fucking know

8/5/2012 12:32:01 AM

He will never tear his Achilles tendon or have plantar fascitis. He doesn't have to make sure his shoes are tied.

That's all I know.

8/5/2012 12:35:26 AM

"Lil Tink Tink"



[Edited on August 5, 2012 at 12:51 AM. Reason : e]

8/5/2012 12:47:55 AM

Quote :

"did I really need to point out what analogy I was referencing? REALLY? if so I'm out, dont like arguing with idiots"

So it was the cars analogy? Considering those were perfect analogies where they have literally replaced the use of our legs, I wouldn't have guessed you were referring to those. But it's the typical saps response where you bury your fucking head in the sand and yell loudly about how wrong the other person is while not bringing anything to the table.

Quote :

"please find me one study that says he has a clear advantage "

I said he has some advantages. It's damn near impossible to say one way or the other whether he has a clear advantage or not. One thing is evident is that he is not on equal footing (har har har) as everyone else.

Quote :

"absolutely, you know why? because I've worn them and know from first hand knowledge...outside of you who just makes assumptions based upon what they see"

So? You've used them. Want a pat on the back? Want someone to suck your dick?

One thing you haven't done is master them, like he has. So maybe you can sympathize with the struggle he has to go through, but you haven't gone through the struggle he had to go through to get to to the level he is at.

Your experience is equal to someone who has driven a car and then testifying that driving a race car at a professional level is difficult. When in actuality you aren't qualified to make such a comment one way or another.

Quote :

"it almost angers me how little you fucking know"

It almost angers me as to how little you bring to the table for discussion and how you have let your feelings get in the way of your obvious bias. It almost angers me how you've ignored the fucking FACT that he weighs less and uses less energy.

Maybe you're at a disadvantage with those one because your ineptitude in using them when compared to a runner with fully functioning legs and in the same physical shape as you are. But who the fuck are you to say that he is at a disadvantage with his mastery of those prosthetic legs?

8/5/2012 12:53:27 AM

Quote :

"So it was the cars analogy? Considering those were perfect analogies"

yup, we've replaced legs with cars to race the 100m

Quote :

"It's damn near impossible to say one way or the other whether he has a clear advantage or not."

then why the fuck are you arguing

Quote :

"Your experience is equal to someone who has driven a car and then testifying that driving a race car at a professional level is difficult."

at no point did I profess mastery of said "car", but I do profess that I know more than someone who has NO knowledge of said "car" outside of youtube videos

Quote :

"uses less energy."

wrong

Quote :

"But who the fuck are you to say that he is at a disadvantage with his mastery of those prosthetic legs?"

and who the fuck are you to even pretend that you have any idea of whats its like to use a prosthetic leg?

8/5/2012 1:10:39 AM

He should required to wear shoes

8/5/2012 1:26:18 AM

i was going to make a serious reply but now im laughing too hard at BHS's post

8/5/2012 1:28:37 AM

Quote :

" then why the fuck are you arguing"

Because you're saying in absolute terms that he is at a disadvantage...

Quote :

" at no point did I profess mastery of said "car", but I do profess that I know more than someone who has NO knowledge of said "car" outside of youtube videos"

Yet the knowledge you possess is useless when discussing whether or not he has a clear advantage or disadvantage in the Olympics...

Quote :

" wrong"

Prove it.

Quote :

" and who the fuck are you to even pretend that you have any idea of whats its like to use a prosthetic leg?"

Where did I state that I know what it's like to use a prosthetic leg, you worthless cum nugget? And what relevance does your experience and my lack of experience in using this type of prosthetic leg have anything to do with Oscar's own experience and capabilities? Just because you suck at using prosthetic running legs doesn't mean he does. Just because its hard for you because you don't have as much experience that he does, doesn't mean you can say he's at a disadvantage.

Your only argument that he is at a disadvantage in the Olympics is that it is hard for you isn't a fucking argument at all. Your suckery of prosthetics doesn't prove shit. Try posting some facts and bring something to the table that is outside your typical line of childish insults and one liner responses consisting of you telling people that they're wrong because you think you're right. Sorry, but I'm not like bottombaby and some of your other mindless minions who will take everything that you type as fact. If you want to fucking disprove me or anyone else, post some facts, not opinions or your failed experiences.

8/5/2012 1:30:37 AM

First off, he is not necessarily lighter. He is 177lb. at 6'1". For comparison, Usain Bolt is 6'5" and 189lb. So the guy who is 4 inches taller is 12 pounds heavier. That's WAY less of a difference than it should be. So claiming that he is lighter is not a valid argument.

You argue that his lack of muscles in his lower legs and feet only equates to less energy expended and less fatigue. However, at the same time he has no control over the shock absorbing traits of his prostheses. It makes more sense to me that it would A) be harder to control the force you are putting into the ground below you and B) eliminate the ability to push off as smoothly as you are working with one spring when on the prosthetic, as opposed to having a precise control over your spring that is your lower leg.

There is no clear evidence that he has any distinct advantage or disadvantage by running on prostheses. There is clear evidence that it is harder to run on them than running on legs that are physiologically sound. Then again, it's all training and learning how to do it and do it well. He has done that. Until there is some scientific evidence that he is somehow at a distinct advantage by running on prostheses, then this argument is basically moot.



EDIT: Also, the cars analogy was fucking terrible. If they were letting niggas on rollerskates compete, you might be in the right ballpark, but wheels provide mobility only. Just putting a wheel on an amputee's stump makes no godfuckingdamned sense, and you know it.

[Edited on August 5, 2012 at 1:44 AM. Reason : ...\]

8/5/2012 1:41:58 AM

Quote :

"Sorry, but I'm not like bottombaby and some of your other mindless minions who will take everything that you type as fact."

Both of my kids have worked with a prosthetist for splinting and serial casting. Anyone with half of a brain who spends enough time hanging around with PTs, OTs, and working with orthotics recognizes that it is a hardship and a burden to work with a less than whole and typically functioning body.

8/5/2012 1:54:16 AM

no point in arguing, some people think they know everything from watching tv.

8/5/2012 1:55:59 AM

Quote :

"First off, he is not necessarily lighter. He is 177lb. at 6'1". For comparison, Usain Bolt is 6'5" and 189lb. So the guy who is 4 inches taller is 12 pounds heavier. That's WAY less of a difference than it should be. So claiming that he is lighter is not a valid argument. "

So you're comparing two different people with different muscle and body builds and their weights and then coming up with the conclusion that the weight argument doesn't hold weight? Dude, your entire logic doesn't hold weight. The 8-10" of leg and muscle missing weighs more than his prosthetic legs. It is a indisputable fact that I will post at the end.

Quote :

"You argue that his lack of muscles in his lower legs and feet only equates to less energy expended and less fatigue. However, at the same time he has no control over the shock absorbing traits of his prostheses. It makes more sense to me that it would A) be harder to control the force you are putting into the ground below you and B) eliminate the ability to push off as smoothly as you are working with one spring when on the prosthetic, as opposed to having a precise control over your spring that is your lower leg."

Well, in all honesty, the less energy use is a bit hairy. One study on Oscar yielded that he used less energy (which is why he was banned from competition to begin with), but another one showed his use was "normal" (which is why he was let back in). The rest of what you posted is hard to quantitatively evaluate at this time in order to determine whether he has a net advantage.

Quote :

"There is no clear evidence that he has any distinct advantage or disadvantage by running on prostheses. There is clear evidence that it is harder to run on them than running on legs that are physiologically sound. Then again, it's all training and learning how to do it and do it well. He has done that. Until there is some scientific evidence that he is somehow at a distinct advantage by running on prostheses, then this argument is basically moot."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/olympics/2012/writers/david_epstein/08/03/oscar-pistorius-london-olympics/index.html

Quote :

""It was dead obvious as soon as [Bundle and I] saw the data that Oscar has an advantage," says Peter Weyand, who now directs the SMU Locomotor Performance Laboratory. "We haven't wavered from that interpretation since." Because the CAS hearing examined specifically -- and only -- the IAAF's previous claims regarding Pistorius, it was not until the following year, when the scientific team published its full findings in the Journal of Applied Physiology, that the researchers who helped Pistorius earn the right to compete split into groups, with Weyand and Bundle contending that Pistorius has a massive advantage. To understand Weyand's reasoning, it helps to know a bit about the mechanics of sprinting. ... In 2000, Weyand and a team of researchers at Harvard published a study showing that humans, from couch potatoes to pro sprinters, have essentially the same leg-swing times when they achieve their maximum speed. Says Weyand, "The line we use around the lab is, From Usain Bolt to Grandma, they reposition their limbs in virtually the same amount of time." But Pistorius's leg-swing times, when measured on a high-speed treadmill, were off the human charts. At top speed, he swings his legs between strides in 0.284 of a second, which is 20 percent faster than intact-limbed sprinters with the same top speed. "His limbs are 20 percent lighter," Weyand says, "and he swings them 20 percent faster." ... This is important because it allows Pistorius to circumvent a main requirement of top level sprinting: putting high forces into the ground quickly. Because Pistorius can make up time with his rapid leg swing, he can leave his foot in contact with the ground longer than other sprinters. To attain the same speed, Pistorius applies lower forces -- about 20 percent lower -- over a longer time, instead of higher forces over a briefer time. In this he's like a cross-country skier, whose boot has a hinge at the toe that allows him to leave the ski down and continue to push, prolonging the time he can continue to apply force. The light weight of the Cheetah legs and the extra contact time with the ground give Pistorius a clear advantage. But the prostheses also have drawbacks. Pistorius is slower at the start than his competitors are. Without ankles, he has to stand straight up out of the blocks and start bouncing to build momentum. And the flexibility of the Cheetah legs has a disadvantage. ... "Even if you factor in the force reduction of the prostheses," Bundle says, "Pistorius is still seven seconds faster over 400 meters than he would be if his limbs functioned as intact biological legs do." (That is, if his swing times were typical of able-bodied runners.) Herr, defending Pistorius, contends that the South African's rapid swing times are merely compensation for the force deficit caused by the Cheetahs and that researchers may never be able to quantify all the advantages and disadvantages of running on carbon-fiber blades. "It's going to take years and years," he says, "and it may not be knowable." To which Bundle says, "The technology is enabling him to do something that nobody else can do. That's the very definition of an advantage." ... SI spoke with eight independent physiologists and biomechanics experts who had no involvement with testing Pistorius, and all eight agreed that Pistorius has abnormally low leg-swing times, stemming from the lightness of his prostheses. Four felt that Pistorius has an advantage over his competitors, while four said that the low swing time is an advantage but that there may be other potential disadvantages to the prostheses that must be studied in more detail before they could say if Pistorius should be allowed to race against intact runners. "It's innocent until proven guilty," Herr says."

Then, there is the point that Oscar is using something that nobody else has or can use. So it's not really a 1:1 competition between man regardless of how you look at it.

Quote :

"EDIT: Also, the cars analogy was fucking terrible. If they were letting niggas on rollerskates compete, you might be in the right ballpark, but wheels provide mobility only. Just putting a wheel on an amputee's stump makes no godfuckingdamned sense, and you know it. [Edited on August 5, 2012 at 1:44 AM. Reason : ...\]"

It's a horrible analogy if you look at in the context of cars competing in olympic competition against human runners. However, saps didn't initially post his remark under that premise. It wasn't until he was made a fool that he revised his meaning.

^^ I'm not at all saying it's not a hardship. But just because it is hard to use, doesn't mean it isn't better.

^ Your methodology of arguing matches that of your mastery of using prosthetics. They both suck.

Don't give yourself too much credit, you're not even arguing. Arguing would require you to put some thought into what you say and bring some facts to the table. You have done neither.

[Edited on August 5, 2012 at 2:05 AM. Reason : .]

8/5/2012 2:00:09 AM

Pistorius' legs were amputated half way between his knee and ankle. On average, the legs make up 31.4% of total body weight, and the shank, ankle, and foot make up 36.83% of that. So for some one who is currently 177lb without half of his shank along with his foot and ankle, he should be somewhere around 185lb. His prostheses weigh around 3 pounds. So at best, he is "gaming the system" for 5 pounds.

I would just like to note that there are no weight requirements for runners, and this motherfucker didn't start running until after his legs were amputated, so basically he trained with his current body and weight (as it has changed over time) and his other muscles developed according to this current weight. It's not as if he became a world class athlete at one weight and then chopped off some limbs to cut weight.

8/5/2012 10:30:50 AM

If there's more than two things quoted in a post, its probably stupid ad definitely not worth reading

8/5/2012 10:36:35 AM

Quote :

"Pistorius' legs were amputated half way between his knee and ankle. On average, the legs make up 31.4% of total body weight, and the shank, ankle, and foot make up 36.83% of that. So for some one who is currently 177lb without half of his shank along with his foot and ankle, he should be somewhere around 185lb. His prostheses weigh around 3 pounds. So at best, he is "gaming the system" for 5 pounds. I would just like to note that there are no weight requirements for runners, and this motherfucker didn't start running until after his legs were amputated, so basically he trained with his current body and weight (as it has changed over time) and his other muscles developed according to this current weight. It's not as if he became a world class athlete at one weight and then chopped off some limbs to cut weight."

Right. You know better than scientists.

Though, as you just said, he's been using these all his life and its the only thing he has basically ever known. That would mean he's not at quite the disadvantage that saps and his minion thinks he is at.

8/5/2012 10:44:17 AM

I have no idea whether he has an overall advantage or disadvantage (and really, no body knows it for a fact), but that's irrelevant.

I think the point is that the games are (should be) for people with natural bodies, unless the prosthetic part is completely un-involved in the performance of the event. That should be written into the constitution of the Olympics.

If you have prosthetic legs and you are competing in archery, no problem. But if you are running with artificial legs, you are relying on external materials for the very act of running, and that's not fair (REGARDLESS of whether the artificial legs are advantageous or otherwise). Are we going to allow leg amputees to take part in swimming with prosthetic fins?

I have never followed the Paralympics... so why can't he participate in them? I mean, they are especially organized for such cases, so what's the problem? How can cross-competitors be allowed? That doesn't make sense.

Also, just so some people don't get pissy

Quote :

"First off, Pistorius has overcome a shit-ton more adversity than I can imagine ever having to overcome, and I'm not trying to take away anything from his accomplishment. "

8/5/2012 10:55:05 AM

Quote :

"I have never followed the Paralympics... so why can't he participate in them?"

I think you answered your own question. No one knows or follows it. It isn't as well known or a prestigious. Maybe you don't want to kick the shit out of other handicapped folks, but you also want to beat out able bodied folks.

8/5/2012 11:07:22 AM

Here's my major issue:

40 years ago, did we have the technology to allow a guy like this to compete in the Olympics? No. Not even close.

40 years from now, what kind of technology will be available to amputees that would allow them to repair/supplement their lost limbs? It's absurd to think that in that amount of time, there would even be a question as to if a guy like this would have an advantage. Of course he would.

So at that point the issue becomes how much technology do we allow competitors to use in order to even the playing field. I haven't read up enough to know for sure whether or not this guy has an advantage right now, but I think that allowing him to compete sets a really horrible precedent for future games because then the olympics become more about the amount of allowable technology and less about the natural ability of the athletes. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I'm afraid this example has already stretched things way too far.

I think it's amazing what this guy has done but it's ridiculous that they even considered letting him compete. Image if he wanted to be a swimmer, but to be competitive he would need to strap fins on his stumps to allow him to even the playing field with other Olympians. That's not even something that any rational person would consider, yet when he wanted to be able to run among the fastest people on earth, he was allowed to use technology to allow him to do just that. I honestly don't see any major differences between those two scenarios, but for some reason one was allowed, and the other seems like a joke.

8/5/2012 11:09:27 AM

the only thing in here I would like to comment on is this:

Quote :

"But it's the typical saps response where you bury your fucking head in the sand and yell loudly about how wrong the other person is while not bringing anything to the table."

because that made me lol, as I often get this response from saps IRL and on the interwebs in our constant bickering. However, I don't think he is doing it here (as he is probably has the best perspective on this of anyone I know). I think the only solution to this problem is that tww sets up a donation account like they did for BB's wii and buy saps some springy legs and then him and all his contrarians can settle it in a race.

BRING IT TO THE STREETS, YO!

8/5/2012 11:15:33 AM

You know what's better than winning an Olympic gold medal?

Having legs.

8/5/2012 11:20:43 AM

I don't know if this guy has a net advantage or not. It sounds like every study so far has said 'maybe, maybe not'. It is certainly possible given that he has been training his whole career on prosthetic legs that he has molded his body to exploit any advantages that may exist.

To say there are no advantages to his situation is absurd. It is equally absurd to say there are no disadvantages. I don't see how anyone in the world is really qualified to say that he is completely at a disadvantage though, even other amputees. How many people exist that are world class runners and double amputees? How many run using the same prosthetics?

It is certainly a good topic for debate. Those in this thread saying there is a clear advantage/disadvantage/no advantage come off sounding like jackasses to me though. We just don't know

[Edited on August 5, 2012 at 11:25 AM. Reason : 32e32]

8/5/2012 11:24:50 AM

video on his story and a bit on some advantages/disadvantages of his prosthetics.

http://www.nbclearn.com/portal/site/learn/science-of-the-summer-olympics

8/5/2012 12:23:42 PM

He clearly has advantages and like others have said, he has clear disadvantages. Someone posted about having a net advantage, and pretty much said how it is hard to quanitify.

As i'm sure you all know, the prosthetics he is using has been around a while. I'm sure there have been improvements to them over the years fine tuning them. Others run on the cheetahs, but dont record the times he does.

That being said, I think it is unfair that he is allowed to run in the olympics, not because he has an advantage, but because now a line has to be drawn as to what is allowable and not allowable as technology advances. We are fortunate to be at a crossroads in technology and time where for the first time ever, a man with no legs from the knee down is able to compete at the same level as the fastest men in the world.

Though I think it's unfair, I want to see him compete.

I'd also like to point out that the man is not bionic.

What time does he race today?

8/5/2012 12:35:49 PM

Lines are already having to be drawn with performance enhancing drugs. They can do it again for situations like this.

8/5/2012 1:46:51 PM

8/5/2012 1:47:45 PM

Though the situations are vaguely similar, I think they are still very distinct. The difference is that all rules will not apply to all contestants with regards to using prosthetics and mechanical technology can advance at very quick rates that will also only affect a percentage of athletes.

How do you define what is a "fair"/legal weight and shape for example...is it fair only if those using prosthetics are not winning medals? Is it fair that say o.p. comes back next olympics and wins several medals, and his prosthetics have been made lighter by an 1/8th of a pound though he has worked his ass off training. How do you weigh those variables and many others for ALL olympic events?

Fierce litigations will ensue for the olympics to come.


[Edited on August 5, 2012 at 2:44 PM. Reason : d]

8/5/2012 2:39:25 PM

He should be in the paralympics. Answer me this, supporters: should athletes who have both legs be allowed to wear these blades? Would the IOC allow them to wear the blades?

I don't care if you think it's an advantage or disadvantage for the purposes of this question, it's a very simple would/should the IOC allow it if a runner with both legs wanted to use them.

Quote :

"if you think a bunch of metal and plastic can replace the human foot then I dont know what else to do but challenge you to try"

Sure I'll give it a shot:



No, someone using a bunch of metal and plastic could never have an advantage against someone using the almighty human foot.

[Edited on August 5, 2012 at 2:58 PM. Reason : ]

8/5/2012 2:53:29 PM

Quote :

"He should be in the paralympics."

He is.

8/5/2012 3:15:37 PM

he has less muscle to propel himself with.

8/5/2012 3:57:20 PM

He done, y'all.

8/5/2012 4:02:27 PM

olympics is serious bidness

8/5/2012 4:04:49 PM

Well but in the Paralympics not everyone has both legs amputated, so if it's unfair for him top use his blades against people with two legs, it is still unfair for him to use them against people with one leg too, right?

Look, when it comes down to it, the dude's personal bests are still far behind most of the sprinters in the world. So at the very least, his prostheses don't make him some super human sprinter. He did well in 2004 at the Paralympics and then wanted to compete in the Olympics in 2008. He was denied and then went to the Paralympics and destroyed it, winning gold in every event that he competed. It was then that the studies came out that said that there was no clear advantage over the other competitors (net advantage) and he was cleared to compete in 2012. He made it to the semis and is done now.

Generally, i feel like if someone is so good that they are destroying everyone at the Paralympics and they want to try their hand (assuming they have one) against those who have fully able bodies, then let them. Maybe they will win, maybe they won't, but I just don't see how it hurt anyone for him to compete this year. It was a good story and got people interested in the Olypmics. Fuck, maybe let the IOC consider it as a similar thing to the Wild Card Invitations like they do for developing nations. Keep studying it and when we can determine a clear advantage or disadvantage we can change things.

8/5/2012 4:30:57 PM

Quote :

"and they want to try their hand (assuming they have one)"

You wrong for that.

8/5/2012 4:38:18 PM

The best part is I went back after I had finished the whole thing and was reading back over it and added that in. It made me giggle.

8/5/2012 4:40:19 PM

He's just another African trying to cheat the system.

8/5/2012 4:46:08 PM