It doesn't need to be bid by unit prices, but standard rates and unit prices should be captured in the contract so that you have something to compare change orders to.

One thing I've seen done a lot lately is marking photos with a scope of work instead of traditional drawings for small projects.

9/30/2012 7:16:09 PM

About half the work he swiped on his little Square card reader thing on his iphone.

Discover temporarily credited it all back to my account while they investigate, but if he is non-responsive to them like he has been my realtor and attorney, then that credit becomes permanent.

At that point my attorney only has to worry about the cash and credit payments! In the meantime I guess I'll just enjoy a small heart-attack rather than a large one.

10/2/2012 5:11:35 PM

I wonder if square can freeze your account with a moments notice like paypal.

If you get a reversal via paypal they will be processing drafts from your checking account repeatedly until they get their money.

10/2/2012 5:55:49 PM

Quote :

" I don't understand why people will sign a contract for $20-100k and NOT READ IT!"

Because people are dumb.

10/3/2012 7:58:03 AM

I have a fellow project manager who wasn't sure if the foundations were included in his $2MM demolition project. How can you be unsure?

10/3/2012 9:00:12 AM

Why do you guys always use MM?

10/3/2012 10:47:33 AM

It looks like if this works I will only end up being out of about 500 bucks.

Unfortunately it also means I've wasted all summer on this joker and still don't have any damn windows.

He still hasn't paid the subcontractor for the roof however. Can those guys really file a lien on my house if I paid the general contractor and he didn't pay them?

My lawyer is talking to their's about teaming up and going after the GC together, but she's getting the impression they just want to put a lien on me because I'm easier to find/target.

My lawyer also wants to go after our realtor that recommended this guy, because they have "gotten negligent misrepresentation claims through summary judgment before." Also they used to work for the REC and is planning on filing complaints about pretty much everyone at this point.

I find this all very stressful.

10/3/2012 3:05:04 PM

Quote :

"Can those guys really file a lien on my house if I paid the general contractor and he didn't pay them? "

Very much so.

10/3/2012 3:16:26 PM

I was under the impression they could only do serious damage if I paid the GC (instead of them) after the lien had been filed?

Why wouldn't they go after the GC first? These guys waited like a week before threatening me! Doesn't seem like they were very keen on fighting with him much were they?

10/3/2012 3:31:19 PM

^ Because he doesn't have any money. You do.

10/3/2012 3:42:59 PM

you should have gotten a lien waiver prior to funding him...

10/3/2012 3:51:39 PM

I should have done a lot of things, in hindsight.

No point in reminding me I'm stupid; I'm well aware in this case.

Wouldn't they claim a lien on funds paid to the contractor? What if no other funds are owed to the contractor?

At this point I'm just sitting tight waiting for the sub's lawyer to contact my lawyer with their gameplan. They located the GC and he is apparently making arrangements to have my windows installed? Everyone collectively turned their attention to him at that point when he piped up and said, "We don't give two fucks about the windows, pay the SC for the roof."

All parties involved were copied on that particular email, and I've just been sitting here watching the fireworks silently all day. It's fun to be copied on everything.

It's fun too once all these legal folks get involved to see you've been billed over $4k for things costing the sub $2k. Who knew being a GC was so lucrative?

On that note I'm going to start writing my own textbooks and charging my students to use them. That's after I also bill the school to carry them in the bookstore. FML

10/3/2012 5:44:03 PM

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass...

5 things every person hiring a contractor should do:

1. Contract - Have a contract with these 16 clauses:
a. Description of Work
b. Contract Documents
c. Changes
d. Defective Work
e. Time
f. Default
g. Indemnification & Insurance
h. Liens and Other Defaults
i. Guarantees
j. Acceptance of Materials
k. Payment
l. Price Duration
m. Miscellaneous and Further Agreements
n. Substitutions
o. Claims
p. Entire Agreement

2. Certificate of Insurance - this is a MUST.

3. Schedule of Values - The Contractor tells you how much you will be paying for what. If it is a renovation job, Roofing, Windows, Sheetrock, Paint, Flooring, etc. would all be separate line items.

4. Applications for Payment - (See Schedule of Values) Progress payments should be substantiated on the SOV and both parties should agree to percentages complete.

5. Lien Waiver - Get a Lien Waiver prior to paying them. This protects you AND the contractor (if he is getting lien waivers from his subs. We damn sure do not give one out until we get one.)

[Edited on October 3, 2012 at 6:01 PM. Reason : )]

10/3/2012 5:59:43 PM

Quote :

"Why wouldn't they go after the GC first? These guys waited like a week before threatening me! Doesn't seem like they were very keen on fighting with him much were they?"

because a lot of people arent paying for services these days (shitty GC's and shitty customers) and more often than not, the subs are the ones who get screwed. in their eyes, they see no point in waiting. the sooner they file the lien, the sooner they ultimately get a judgement. they really dont care if you paid the GC or not. they have no way of knowing and if they have not been paid, it doesnt really matter to them.

liens work to two tiers below;

tier 1 - owner
tier 2 - GC
tier 3 - subs
tier 4 - suppliers

subs can lien GC and owner
suppliers can lien subs and GC
etc...

often there can be multiple levels of subs.....subs of subs...so its important you have all of that type of information up front from your GC so you know who is getting paid and when.

10/3/2012 6:16:08 PM

Quote :

"It's fun too once all these legal folks get involved to see you've been billed over $4k for things costing the sub $2k. Who knew being a GC was so lucrative? "

I thought your buddy was doing it for free??

Or is he "billing" to try and get legal fees?

10/3/2012 6:27:48 PM

I was referring to the contractor charging me a tad over $4k, but when my lawyer forces him to disclose communication with sub, he reveals it only cost him $2k.

I appreciate that list mdozer. I'll add that my lawyer is going to draw me up a nice little default contract of my own that I hand to everyone in the future.

The sub's lawyer is being included in all the communications with the GC, so at the very least they know I'm not the cunt. Those fellows were nice enough when they were actually at my house I think (hope) they want to do the right thing and go after the right people.

After the GC's last stupid email regarding their payment by the end of the week we can only pray. Obviously I have enough money to prevent a lien, but again this is going to be my stupid ass paying for something TWICE.

Two sets of gutters, two fucking roofs, where does it end? If anything at least maybe this thread can be a BIG ASS WARNING to anyone considering this type of project, although undoubtedly there are a ton of horror stories like this online.

Question: I know there are tons of shitty people everywhere, but why does it seem general contractors have a very high shittiness quotient? I know nothing about it, so are there just few rules and regulations? Don't you go to school to be a contractor? Is there a degree? Is it exceptionally easy to do? It's like con artists gravitate towards the field.

I'm certain the contractors represented ITT are very good. I'd like to hear what they have to say about their peers. I also welcome any other advice about what to do next time so I don't get buttraped. I'm undoing the rape, but it's very time-consuming and stressful.

Thanks again,

10/3/2012 7:19:52 PM

I think, a lot of the time, the customer is to blame.

they hire the cheapest one they can find, dont do their homework and then get mad when they get screwed. there are tons of carpetbaggers hanging around bc the work ran out, or they screwed everyone they could at the last place they worked.

at a minimum, the GC should have a license, insurance (workers comp and liability) and sub/customer references.

I lose jobs all the time to jackholes who dont know what they are doing and I cannot count how many people have called me after the fact to fix their mess or just to vent about the person they hired.

10/3/2012 8:06:57 PM

Quote :

"Question: I know there are tons of shitty people everywhere, but why does it seem general contractors have a very high shittiness quotient? I know nothing about it, so are there just few rules and regulations? Don't you go to school to be a contractor? Is there a degree? Is it exceptionally easy to do? It's like con artists gravitate towards the field."

Because most GCs aren't licensed. It's a job that anyone who has a truck and basic skills can do. Those of us who ARE licensed (true GCs), aren't the ones that people usually have problems with. For example, it sounds like yours is most likely no longer licensed. When you are, you have to provide statements yearly to renew to show that you have the capital to do the job.

As far as school, no. I originally went to NCSU for School of Design but then ended up in Business Management after the first semester. You DO have to pass a test to get the license and a class/classes are necessary for most people (it covers stuff that 90% of GCs will never do). Most of the people that I've met that have degrees in Construction Management (and other similar degrees) are usually pretty clueless.

Really it just boils down to research. Make sure they have an office/storefront. Check BBB & google for reviews. Check the licensing board to make sure they're currently licensed (http://www.nclbgc.org/). Ask for recent customers (esp. if they don't have a physical location or you can't find reviews) and actually CHECK THEM OUT. You can ask for a copy of their insurance (though the only time we ever get asked is for commercial jobs). Ask about building permits and watch for their reaction. READ YOUR CONTRACT and never pay someone without one and don't accept their word about change orders, get it in writing. Mainly just trust your instincts. Most people aren't going to hand some guy that drives up in a truck a check for several grand so don't do it just because they say they're going to work on your house. In your case, you basically just didn't go far enough. You SHOULD be able to trust a recommendation from your realtor but you should have stopped as soon as you learned he wasn't licensed any more and lost his company. In the end, you've learned a big lesson and hopefully you'll get your money back but at least you'll be prepared next time.

10/3/2012 8:41:45 PM

yup. what he said.

10/3/2012 8:55:43 PM

As it stands right now, it appears to largely be blowing back in the realtor's face for making terrible recommendations or putting their reputations behind shady characters.

I don't want this thread to die because I'm sure plenty of folks are buying (or might be buying) houses right now. This is too important (and stressful) to not discuss.

Before I get some hard results posted maybe we could discuss reputable folks in the Raleigh and Charlotte areas? Anywhere else a large number of TWWers live in would be great too.

Self-promotion welcome as long as previously described criteria are met! I'm in the Charlotte area myself so hopefully you guys have some connections!

10/8/2012 7:33:26 PM

Why blame the Realtor? Did he or she profit from the contractor's involvement?

They just gave a name. You made the hire. Caveat Emptor.

The Realtor deserves some shit, but likely they didn't know much about the dude and saw a flyer or something.

[Edited on October 8, 2012 at 7:44 PM. Reason : T]

10/8/2012 7:43:15 PM

They personally vouched for someone with a [now] known criminal record.

None of the qualifications you previously listed either, but had been working with them for almost 20 years.

Most of his problems seem to have originated in the Winston-Salem area, but until very recently his work in the LKN area has been top notch.

I mean, obviously the Ponzi collapsed and the clientele around here was more important, but somebody like this doesn't need the area's largest realtor actively promoting them.

Lawyer is just digging up more victims now, although their motives aren't entirely noble. The idea I suppose is to get my relatively small sum out of whoever possible (realtor?) in exchange for making this go away.

10/8/2012 7:56:23 PM

I shouldn't be that say that I agree with ^^. If the realtor was involved and getting kick backs, that's one thing, but they shouldn't be held financially liable just because they got duped too. It's the buyer's responsibility to check the contractor out before handing money over.

10/9/2012 8:08:23 AM

It's not the Realtor's fault (unless he was profiting)

You are acting like a boob. Take some responsibility for your own irresponsible actions. Act like a man. Take your medicine.

10/9/2012 7:42:13 PM

Most realtors have insurance that protects them when being sued professionally.....you probably don't want to get involved with that unless you have your case together.

It sounds like you are going to have a hard time proving your case against the agent if this guy had a good reputation around here until recently.

[Edited on October 9, 2012 at 7:48 PM. Reason : .]

10/9/2012 7:48:31 PM

Quote :

"It's not the Realtor's fault (unless he was profiting)"

We don't know this yet.

Quote :

"You are acting like a boob. Take some responsibility for your own irresponsible actions. Act like a man. Take your medicine."

No.

Quote :

"Most realtors have insurance that protects them when being sued professionally.....you probably don't want to get involved with that unless you have your case together. It sounds like you are going to have a hard time proving your case against the agent if this guy had a good reputation around here until recently."

Like I said, ill keep you guys informed as this progresses. The point of this thread isn't to be assholes or point fingers. It's simply to prevent it from happening again (to me or anyone else). Simple.

Nobody is realistically going to take thousands of dollars in the ass just to "be a man," sorry. I'll go eat some raw meat to recover those points.

10/9/2012 8:15:41 PM

You are just typical of a lot of Americans in that you are incapable of admitting fault. Everyone is looking for someone to blame.

If the Realtor made money on the transaction then he should be involved. If not, tough titty.

If I recommend a movie and you hate it, should I pay for your ticket? What about a restaurant? Mechanic?

Raw meat isn't going to save you.

PS I am not being an asshole. I am trying to talk some sense into you. We all have to be called out once in a while. Grow a thicker skin.

10/9/2012 8:23:56 PM

Like I said, we will know soon enough to level of his involvement.

I probably am an extremely typical American, yes.

I don't think your analogy is relevant considering the difference in prices we are talking here, although plenty of shady mechanics probably invite similar investigations.

10/9/2012 8:27:53 PM

The analogy is extremely relevant. Price makes no difference, other than the actions you should take once you receive the recommendation.

Tell us, what vetting of the contractor did you do yourself?

10/9/2012 8:30:09 PM

References, examples of previous work, but not much besides that.

I knew about the licensing process etc, but the realtor was pushing him so hard I didn't think twice about it.

I knew it would be their ass if something happened and that's exactly how it's shaping up.

Look, I realize you're a contractor and a fine specimen of man, but just because I remind you of one of your less-desirable clients (perhaps) doesn't mean you have to speak down to me. Have you ended up on the wrong end of a lawsuit before?

This isn't in Chit Chat for a reason. No reason to side with a criminal instead of my naive self.

10/9/2012 9:00:52 PM

firstly, I am a fine specimen of a man. no question.

secondly, no wonder you are in the situation you are in.

you take my posts to be SIDING with some contractor who allegedly wronged you? you could not be further from the point and I have no idea how to be any clearer. I know nothing of that person. what I know is what you have brought to the table. that is, a GROWN person who did not do their homework and got the wrong side of a business deal, who seeks to blame it on a 3rd party. by all means though, sue the person who wronged you. go after them. have fun.

what is irritating is that you seemingly have no concept or ability to accept your own fault here. you want to sue a person who gave you a recommendation. on surface, without any other facts, this sounds utterly RIDICULOUS. this is my beef with you.

10/9/2012 9:32:10 PM

I will have fun! Thanks!

10/9/2012 10:15:44 PM

Nobody is siding with the criminal here. The fact is that only one person is responsible for you getting duped. That's you. Yeah it sucks but it's not anyone's fault but your own. Your realtor recommended someone and it was YOUR responsibility to check them out before you gave them money. You knew he was operating illegally and you STILL gave him your money. That isn't your realtor's fault. It's yours. If I tell you that you should buy a car because it looks good and I've heard good things, it's not my fault if it breaks down on you on the way home and you didn't pop the hood or check it out. It's YOUR fault. I felt bad for you at first but going after the realtor to cover your own fuck-up is shitty and makes you no better than the contractor that ripped you off. If you go after the contractor, I hope you win.. If you go after the realtor, I hope the judge laughs in your face and tells you to grow up right before throwing the case out.

The fact that this is the lounge should tell you something. We're not picking on you or trolling to be funny/assholes. We're HONESTLY telling you the truth about your preferred course of action. Man up, suck it up, and realize that only 2 people fucked up here, you and the "contractor" you hired. Leave the realtor out of it and do your homework next time.

10/9/2012 11:08:47 PM

I won't be talked down to, so here's a hint:

The realtor's involvement is only being investigated. Nobody is truly in the hot seat except the contractor, so chill the fuck out.

You are right about one thing; I will have my money no matter what. If that pisses you off then feel free to argue on the Internet. The fact is I don't give two shits about the scumbags that have been involved in this project, and my lawyer isn't going to stop.

Now at this point I realize you two fuckheads can't read, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

Don't worry, I won't acknowledge you again in this thread. and you shouldn't acknowledge me.

10/9/2012 11:21:52 PM

Quote :

" As it stands right now, it appears to largely be blowing back in the realtor's face for making terrible recommendations or putting their reputations behind shady characters."

Sure sounds like he's not in the hot seat and is only being investigated.

There's only one fuckhead in this thread and that's you. Don't like being called out for being a douche and not owning up to your own mistakes? Then don't mess up, don't be a double, or don't post about it. Nobody is going to pat you on the back and tell you that you got screwed so it's ok to fuck someone else over. If that's what you wanted maybe you should have actually posted in chit chat.

And ftr, I'll acknowledge douchebag behavior whenever I feel like it. Good luck in your quest to fuck someone else over. Maybe you'll get lucky and get a judge with the same lack of morals as you and your lawyer buddy.

10/9/2012 11:36:37 PM

Quote :

"In the Lake Norman area however, he came highly recommended and works on tons of houses more expensive than mine as well as high dollar historic restorations."

Have fun getting money out of your Realtor when you have admitted in writing that the contractor had good references and was highly recommended.

You gonna sue Angie's list next because the "A+" cleaning lady picked up a pill addiction over the summer and stole your iPad when you were not looking???

How about suing the party that fucked you over instead of everyone you think you can extract money from? If Karma is not a good enough reason then hopefully the E&O insurance companies ability to clobber your low budget attorney will be.

10/10/2012 12:05:12 AM

I bet the OP buys speakers out of the white vans in the bank parking lot because they are "such a good deal"

10/10/2012 7:43:54 AM

The Stupid Tax


(by the way...I pay this tax more often than I'd like to admit...but at least I don't bitch about it)

10/10/2012 8:21:56 AM

haha nm

[Edited on October 10, 2012 at 8:51 AM. Reason : .]

10/10/2012 8:49:59 AM

Quote :

"I realize you two fuckheads can't read"

Make that three. DaBird said

Quote :

"You are just typical of a lot of Americans in that you are incapable of admitting fault. Everyone is looking for someone to blame."

To which you replied

Quote :

"I probably am an extremely typical American, yes."

Your argument is a joke. Stop being a winy little bitch. You fucked up and now you're paying the consequences.

10/10/2012 10:46:44 AM

PUT SCOOOTER ON TEH PHONE, YA NIMROD!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFCHJ1HOtTU

10/10/2012 10:57:00 AM

The good news is the subs aren't filing a lien, and their lawyer is partnering with mine. Seems this GC stiffed them on multiple jobs at once.

My actual realtor is no longer participating, but his boss is. Apparently there was a company memo in May alerting individual agents NOT to use this fellow anymore, and they were to amend their printed materials accordingly. Mine was not, so in order to avoid a complaint with the REC (which is all we threatened at this point), they are providing the lawyers with documentation about why they were dropping this guy.

Discover Card has had all my documentation for about a week now, and said it would take less than 30 days to resolve. In the meantime they temporarily credited $4k to my account. It will be made permanent if the GC doesn't respond to them, and I don't imagine he will since it appears he has skipped town (their offices are legit deserted). Discover doesn't attempt phone contact with them; they send a simple letter (nobody there to receive it).

I don't know exactly how that Square system works, but I assume it is attached to more than one of his accounts. Discover will probably pull or skim those funds from a variety of sources. That being the case I would only be losing the $500 or so dollars I paid directly to the gutter sub. Probably not enough money worth pursuing at that point, but I believe my lawyer intends to follow this completely through now that they've established that partnership with the roof sub. I think they have become personally annoyed at this person's method of operation.

I apologize for any personal attacks I've leveled in this thread, has been quite the adventure so far.

10/10/2012 11:49:06 AM

Quote :

"I apologize for any personal attacks I've leveled in this thread, has been quite the adventure so far."

I appreciate you posted this and I can also appreciate how frustrated that you must be.

I hate hearing stories of people being screwed by contractors, because it makes us all look bad. It is sad as well, because there are tons of legitimate people out there who missed out on your work in favor of this douchebag who stole your money.

The big thing for you and anyone else when hiring contractors in the future is securing lien wavers from the contractor and his subs/suppliers, getting license numbers and insurance coverage certs. That is how you will avoid problems.

Good luck.

10/10/2012 2:29:27 PM