Consider further-order effects.

8/23/2013 1:36:19 PM

So is this a dude with a vagina or just a gay dude in a dress?

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

8/23/2013 1:37:04 PM

^^
gotta explain that to me

8/23/2013 1:37:41 PM

My point is that one's own reality doesn't define others' reality.

Chelsea Manning declaring she's a woman doesn't mean you have to accept it, but your refusal to do so also doesn't mean that other people can't.

8/23/2013 1:38:44 PM

She kind of looks like Kaitlin Olson

8/23/2013 1:41:45 PM

The transgender thing is hardly new, a quick google search reveals some coverage about it from a few years back, but as soon as the name Chelsea is used it seems the media blows up and treats it as breaking news.

Maybe it's to paint a narrative that this claim is only coming about as a result of sentencing. Whatever one thinks about Manning or about trans issues, I think it's at least important to see that this has been out there for years, rather than coming about as a post-sentencing revelation.

8/23/2013 1:42:20 PM

Quote :

"I think it's at least important to see that this has been out there for years, rather than coming about as a post-sentencing revelation."

Certainly, and anyone who has been paying any degree of attention to this story should know that.

Quote :

"What would you think if she only released the cables showing criminal activity?"

Well that's not what he did is it?

Quote :

"Manning is a traitorous piece of shit. If he'd just blown the whistle on illegal activities, preferably after failing via proper channels, then that would be one thing"

+1

8/23/2013 2:02:10 PM

^

Quote :

"So carelessness with good intentions moves you from the category of OK to "traitorous piece of shit"."

especially considering no one was physically harmed due to the leaks

[Edited on August 23, 2013 at 2:14 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2013 2:13:57 PM

Quote :

"especially considering no one was physically harmed due to the leaks"

Why the fuck is someone experiencing bodily harm the metric that must be met as to whether something was wrong not? I don't why you keep repeating that meaningless point (and who the hell even knows if that's true). He certainly did harm to this nation, which is arguably a more important metric to be met.

Quote :

"So carelessness with good intentions moves you from the category of OK to "traitorous piece of shit"

Oh sure, just because his heart was in the right place he should be able to get away with the crime. I'll remember that the next time I'm karate chopping Wal-Mart's CEO in the nuts.

8/23/2013 2:22:07 PM

why you so mad bro? it makes a lot of difference.

35 years for hurting the US's pride. "Harm to the nation" lol. Clearly we needed to be brought down several pegs.

Quote :

"Oh sure, just because his heart was in the right place he should be able to get away with the crime."

Right. Or at least a severely lower sentence.

8/23/2013 2:28:31 PM

Quote :

"why you so mad bro? it makes a lot of difference. 35 years for hurting the US's pride."

I'm far from mad, brah.

And you're either ignorant as fuck or trolling me right now with this pride bullshit.

Quote :

"Right. Or at least a severely lower sentence."

Oh, well I guess that answers it.

8/23/2013 2:29:44 PM

ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็ก้้้้้้้้็็็็็็

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

8/23/2013 2:31:44 PM

^^
Which of the leaks had a serious effect on national security? Do you think that leaking anything that makes the US looks bad is an abominable crime?

He didn't have access to anything above secret clearance.

[Edited on August 23, 2013 at 2:46 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2013 2:45:18 PM

Quote :

"Do you think that leaking anything that makes the US looks bad is an abominable crime?"

Obviously the criminality of his acts isn't the fact that he made the US look bad. Good lord that's a stupid question. I can't believe I even responded to it.

As far as your nearly equally stupid bodily harm talking point goes - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-6718218.html

Quote :

"He didn't have access to anything above secret clearance. "

He had a TS/SCI clearance. Even if what you say is true, what's your point?

8/23/2013 2:57:07 PM

8/23/2013 3:09:23 PM

Quote :

"Obviously the criminality of his acts isn't the fact that he made the US look bad. Good lord that's a stupid question. I can't believe I even responded to it."

Then what damage did they do? You still haven't explained. From that article:

Quote :

"Our focus really, frankly, is to try to determine if there is anything in these 90,000 pages of documents that could indeed endanger our forces; we've got a team doing that round the clock"

Did they find anything? I'm seriously curious.

Quote :

"President Obama said he was concerned about the massive leak of sensitive documents about the Afghanistan war, but that the papers did not reveal any concerns that were not already part of the debate."

8/23/2013 3:10:24 PM

Quote :

"Then what damage did they do? You still haven't explained."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-6718218.html

also:

Quote :

"U.S. soldier Bradley Manning’s leaks of classified government files had a “chilling effect” on foreign relations, impeding U.S. diplomats’ gathering of information, a senior State Department official said Monday. “Every single embassy” was affected, said Undersecretary of State for Management Patrick Kennedy, who warned about long-term consequences of Manning’s 2010 leaks to the anti-secrecy website WikiLeaks. The releases will have “a chilling effect that will go on for some time,” Kennedy said. Kennedy testified at the sentencing hearing for Manning, who was convicted last week on criminal charges that included espionage. The hearing is to help the court martial determine how long the private first class should be in prison. Kennedy was part of a panel that assessed the damage Manning caused to U.S. foreign relations by releasing more than 700,000 classified documents and videos. The unauthorized releases made foreign diplomats, business leaders and other information sources “reticent to provide their full and frank opinions and share them with us,” he said, cutting off information that political leaders need to make foreign policy decisions."

8/23/2013 3:20:41 PM

Can I get a tonal read on that quote? "Chilling" can mean "general cooling" or "incredibly scary."

[Edited on August 23, 2013 at 3:22 PM. Reason : 22]

8/23/2013 3:22:35 PM

^^
Again, the first article was speculation from two years ago. They haven't found any evidence that it has endangered anyone.

As far as the chilling effect:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/07/manning-sentencing-rejects-chilling-effect

Quote :

"The judge at US soldier Bradley Manning's sentencing hearing rejected some government evidence Wednesday that the classified information he disclosed through the anti-secrecy website WikiLeaks had a "chilling effect" on US foreign relations. The judge ruled that such testimony is admissible only if the effect came directly after the information was published. She threw out State Department undersecretary Patrick Kennedy's testimony that leaked information published more than two years ago continues to hurt US foreign relations and policymaking. The judge also has rejected acting assistant secretary Michael Kozak's testimony that the leaks had made some foreign citizens, including human rights activists, less willing to speak privately with US diplomats. Manning faces up to 90 years in prison for leaking more than 700,000 diplomatic cables and Iraq and Afghanistan battlefield reports, plus some battlefield video, while working as an intelligence analyst in Iraq in 2010. The judge heard testimony Wednesday from a military intelligence official, civilian James McCarl, who leads a Pentagon effort to analyze information about the enemy's use of homemade bombs, or improvised explosive devices, which McCarl said accounted for 60 to 80% of all casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. The battlefield reports Manning leaked included five years' worth of detailed information about roadside bomb and IED attacks. Earlier Wednesday, Manning's lawyers released a schedule of the 20 sentencing witnesses they plan to call next Monday through Wednesday. Manning is not on the list, but his lawyers can call him to the stand without notice."

Quote :

"Can I get a tonal read on that quote? "Chilling" can mean "general cooling" or "incredibly scary.""

lol

"hey guys...we need to chill out. for real."

[Edited on August 23, 2013 at 3:25 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2013 3:23:42 PM

We're not discussing if certain evidence was admissible in a court case jackass. We're discussing harm done to America. And on that point, I'm going to take the Undersecretary of State as his word.

Also:

Quote :

"But former CIA director Michael Hayden denounced the leak Monday as a gift to America's enemies. "If I had gotten this trove on the Taliban or al Qaeda, I would have called it priceless," he said. "I would love to know what al Qaeda or the Taliban was thinking about a specific subject in 2007, for instance, because I could say they got that right and they got that wrong." Hayden predicted the Taliban would take anything that described a U.S. strike and the intelligence behind it "and figure out who was in the room when that particular operation, say in 2008, was planned, and in whose home." Then the militants would probably punish the traitor who'd worked with the Americans, he said. Another casualty of the disclosures may be American efforts to forge cooperation with Pakistan's secretive intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence. Multiple U.S. military cables posted by WikiLeaks complain about ISI complicity with the Taliban. And they also tell the Pakistanis "how much we know about them," said Robert Riegle, a former senior intelligence officer who now runs Mission Concepts Inc., a private intelligence firm. "You're not going to see any cooperation," he said. "People are going to freeze." The raw data released Sunday may also prove useful in a wider way to America's "frenemies" - the intelligence services of countries like China and Russia, who have the resources to process and make sense of such vast vaults of data, said Ellen McCarthy, former intelligence officer and president of the Intelligence and National Security Alliance. Former CIA chief Hayden added: "If I'm head of the Russian intelligence, I'm getting my best English speakers and saying: 'Read every document, and I want you to tell me, how good are these guys? What are their approaches, their strengths, their weaknesses and their blind spots?'""

8/23/2013 3:31:49 PM

i know you are but what am i

8/23/2013 3:34:50 PM

"chilling effect"
"chilling" effect

two very different things

8/23/2013 3:35:22 PM

Talk about your COLD SHOULDAH

8/23/2013 3:48:02 PM

Quote :

"So carelessness with good intentions moves you from the category of OK to "traitorous piece of shit". That was a lot of information for one person to sort through. And it painted a pretty good picture of all the shitty things the US has been doing."

Absolutely it makes a difference. He had no clue what was in the documents he released. One of the tests for determining the legitimacy of a whistle-blower's actions is that the person be able to relate what he's trying to show to what he's releasing. If you don't know what the fuck is in the stuff you're releasing, then you fail that basic test. The fact that Manning still has yet to make a coherent argument about what was released is telling. He sprayed everything he could against the wall and hoped something would stick. That's not whistle-blowing.

If he couldn't have sorted through all of it, then he shouldn't have released it. You release shit that proves your point. You can't prove your point if you don't know what's in it. Fuck him and may he rot in prison for a long time

Quote :

"especially considering no one was physically harmed due to the leaks"

I guess releasing information about day to day activities of US military operations has zero possibility of giving an enemy knowledge of how to better attack us. yep. What a stupid argument to make, man.

8/23/2013 5:01:35 PM

Quote :

"Fuck him and may he rot in prison for a long time"

Burro, you're such a bad-ass

8/23/2013 5:11:50 PM

like a boss, yo

8/23/2013 5:17:30 PM

^^^
no you're stupid!!

8/23/2013 5:35:08 PM

good response. it really elucidates your point of view.

8/23/2013 5:43:22 PM

Quote :

"Absolutely it makes a difference. "

Yes. It makes him careless. It doesn't make him a traitorous piece of shit that should rot in prison for life. Our disagreement here is on a more fundamental level than just Bradley Manning, so I don't really care to delve into it.

Might they be able to glean some useful information from the logs? Maybe. I haven't read them all, but the ones I have are simple reports with no tactical information. If there were any substantial threats due to the leaks, we would know about them. Maybe you know something I don't? The pros of the leaks far outweigh the cons. I am sure we differ on that opinion as well.

In summary, you eat farts.

8/23/2013 6:07:32 PM

Many times you can have one report that means nothing by itself, but put in aggregate with many other similarly meaningless reports, it paints a broader picture from which meaningful intelligence can be gathered. This isn't "carelessness". Carelessness is letting a flashlight reveal your position in the field of battle at night. Carelessness is dropping a pot on a submarine while underway. Carelessness is NOT intentionally divulging tons of classified information without even trying to to review what you are releasing. That is wanton disregard for your own actions and how they affect others, and it should be punished as such.

And "the pros of the leaks"? Bullshit. he didn't know what he was releasing. That he happened to release some shit that showed we were doing bad things is incidental to what he actually did: leaking a metric shit ton of classified information for no fucking reason and with no explanation of relevance. If he wanted to be treated as a whistle-blower, then he should have been one. he wasn't, so he should rot in jail. You think that because he happened to release a few things that were important, it forgives the fact that he didn't even know what he was releasing in the first place, and it makes everything ok. That's horseshit in the first degree.

8/23/2013 6:18:06 PM

Supplanter wins this thread by saying that Manning's gender-identity issues had been known (and even in the media) for years by now.

In fact, one of the first people Bradley Manning reached out to was then known as Zachary J. Antolak, later on the YouTubez as Zinnia Jones, and now as Lauren McNamara, who recently spoke on CNN about transsexualism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcC383pv5xA

8/24/2013 9:41:31 AM

Hang the motherfucker.

8/24/2013 6:37:15 PM