Quote :

"Virtually everyone looks out for #1. Lofty ideals don't mean shit when you're dead."

Haveing looked out for #1 won't mean shit when you're dead either. You can't take it with you when you go. Shit doesn't mean shit when you're dead.


[Edited on October 15, 2013 at 2:17 PM. Reason : ]

10/15/2013 2:16:19 PM

How apt his name is at this point in time.

10/15/2013 2:19:46 PM

Quote :

"Virtually everyone looks out for #1. Lofty ideals don't mean shit when you're dead."

#1 means different things to different people. If I understand your post correctly, you somehow assume that everyone is looking to be #1 in wealth accumulation.

You can strive to be #1 musician, #1 athlete, #1 bread baker, #1 carpenter, #1 friendly neighbour. If your life is not centered around accumulating wealth/capital/resources, doesn't mean you will leave a life void of accomplishment, and then die of hunger.

10/15/2013 2:27:16 PM

I take "looking out for #1" as meaning "putting one's own satisfaction and basic needs over others". Everyone here primarily looks out for themselves, anyone that says otherwise is just bullshitting.

10/15/2013 2:48:39 PM

charity is immoral, we all read atlas shrugged

10/15/2013 2:49:46 PM

"basic needs", huh?

10/15/2013 2:50:54 PM

So is someone here going to claim that they're altruistic and care about the well being of others more than their own well being?

[Edited on October 15, 2013 at 2:58 PM. Reason : ]

10/15/2013 2:56:25 PM

How can you not realize the benefits of social responsibility in a modern, complex society?

10/15/2013 3:01:24 PM

sorry dude, you and your ideology are just amusing to me now.

10/15/2013 3:01:31 PM

I agree with him, because it's blatantly obvious. If you didn't put your needs above others you couldn't survive to help them in the first place. I don't think anyone actually claims otherwise.

10/15/2013 3:19:29 PM

Until society breaks down to the point where people are killing each other in the streets for food then I don't think your ideology is valid.

10/15/2013 3:24:54 PM

Quote :

"So is someone here going to claim that they're altruistic and care about the well being of others more than their own well being?"

To a certain point, individuals are trying to meet their own needs, yes, that's basic survival instinct. But when disconnect is very high between "haves" of the individual and "needs" of those he knows (usually people around him or her), empathy should kick in a morally conscious person. This works in any society. Someone in a shack, who is considered "poor" by someone in a house, will still feels a moral obligation to helps his fellow human being who may not even have a roof over his or here head. Someone in a mansion with plenty of disposable income may feel an obligation to help a family that is struggling to make payments on their five-bedroom house, even though they are not technically "poor". The delta wealth is what makes the difference here. This delta can be narrow or wide, depending on each individual. However, I find it hard to believe that of someone that drives a Bentley like the preacher in the link above, while people in his congregation may be struggling for food, and still claim high moral ground.

10/15/2013 3:30:50 PM

Quote :

"that doesn't agree with the gospel of Christ, you can make the argument that Jesus didn't advocate using government policy but you can't make the argument that capitalism is congruous with his teachings"

Well, first off, he didn't advocate using government policy. he had very little to say about it. Second, it's not that "capitalism is congruous with his teachings"; it's that it's not incongruous with them. There's a difference.

For all of you saying "RENDER UNDER TO CAESAR!!!", that's NOT an implicit support of any and all gov't programs, nor is it support of any specific programs that are supposed to be aimed at helping the poor.

10/15/2013 9:25:48 PM

ahhahaha

people are seriously saying that if they got a big refund back from the govt due to fixing govt inefficiences that they'd donate it to charity

instead of buying a ps4

ahahhahahahah

10/15/2013 9:45:00 PM

I think the chances of that happening are far more likely than the chances of the gov't actually helping anyone with that money instead of just pissing it away

10/15/2013 9:55:50 PM

For a bunch of liberals that preach tolerance, you people love to hate on some Christians.

When you say "capitalist" what is your threshold here, because you seem to be basing your qualification on money. Are you talking about the top 1% who might also be Christians? I mean, I'm pretty sure that out of the top 1% of Americans that you all seem to hate so much, a good many of them aren't even Christian, so we're talking about what, maybe .05% of the population? Seems like a pretty small minority to get your panties in such a wad over.

[Edited on October 15, 2013 at 10:48 PM. Reason : asdf]

10/15/2013 10:41:11 PM

nothing about tolerance means not calling out hypocrisy

[Edited on October 15, 2013 at 10:45 PM. Reason : or calling out christianity even]

10/15/2013 10:44:43 PM

Ok

But you still didn't answer my question. How are you defining "capitalist" christians? Are you talking about the richest 1% that might possibly also be christian?

10/15/2013 10:50:34 PM

Apparently its called Prosperity Gospel

10/15/2013 11:05:55 PM

Quote :

"I mean, I'm pretty sure that out of the top 1% of Americans that you all seem to hate so much, a good many of them aren't even Christian, so we're talking about what, maybe .05% of the population?"

AND the rest of the so-called Christian population that tramples their own principles in the rat race to become the .05 percent

10/15/2013 11:07:00 PM

Quote :

"For all of you saying "RENDER UNDER TO CAESAR!!!", that's NOT an implicit support of any and all gov't programs, nor is it support of any specific programs that are supposed to be aimed at helping the poor."

Well, I'm not on my knees for Jesus letting the Holy Spirit come into me so my interpretation is probably wrong, but I'm reading it and the surrounding passages as the "submit to your masters and wait it out until the next life where you'll be rewarded" narrative common throughout the NT.

10/16/2013 12:26:20 PM

I went to my parent's church several years ago (my childhood church, southern baptist). The message of that day's particular sermon was basically "Obey Authority", and the preacher basically said that it was god's will who was elected and assigned to positions of authority, and therefore if we rebel against authority, we're rebelling against god. He even went as far as to say that if you ran a stop-sign, you were sinning. Of course, this was during the Bush administration, I seriously doubt the preacher would say the same thing now, and I know a lot of the congregation wouldn't agree, since a lot of them are pretty sure Obama is the anti-christ, or close to it.

[Edited on October 16, 2013 at 12:35 PM. Reason : ]

10/16/2013 12:34:20 PM

aaronburro is aactually Christian. That's far too predictable.

10/16/2013 8:51:45 PM

I assumed running a stop sign, which risks injury to both life and property, was a sin. Is it not?

10/17/2013 2:47:20 PM

If you stopped by a Southern Baptist church, I'm surprised you didn't get the old "drinking is a sin" schtick. We went to one for a bit because it was the only one that had kids around the same age as ours in the tiny town we lived in. Every couple weeks the preacher would get on a rant about how drinking was such a sin, and picking up the bottle meant you hated Jesus, etc. etc. etc. I finally told my wife I couldn't take it anymore, but that was about the time we moved.

I like to have a beer at dinner, but I enjoy one and I'm done. Afterwards I don't beat my kids or wife or get behind the wheel and act like an asshole. I just like the taste and it helps me relax a bit, but that is the extent. Drinking as a sin isn't in the Bible, but being a drunk is. I have never understood the Baptist obsession with lumping anybody who has a beer or glass of wine (which Jesus made!) with the town drunk. I understand that enough can mess you up and some people can't stop. But if we throw out anything that somebody can abuse, there would literally be nothing left in this world we could do.

10/17/2013 3:14:49 PM

Being drunk is a sin in the Bible?

Wait, why am I even starting that discussion, I can probably dig up contradictory passages for days.

10/17/2013 4:49:49 PM

Drunkness is a form of gluttony. So it's not a 10 commandments thing "Thou Shalt not imbibe Alcohol" like the Baptists think, but being a fucking drunk would fall under gluttony.

10/17/2013 6:49:37 PM

Quote :

"Well, I'm not on my knees for Jesus letting the Holy Spirit come into me so my interpretation is probably wrong, but I'm reading it and the surrounding passages as the "submit to your masters and wait it out until the next life where you'll be rewarded" narrative common throughout the NT."

That's not a good interpretation of it, and I've never heard anyone posit it as one, but I wouldn't doubt there are some who would say that.

Quote :

"I went to my parent's church several years ago (my childhood church, southern baptist). The message of that day's particular sermon was basically "Obey Authority", and the preacher basically said that it was god's will who was elected and assigned to positions of authority, and therefore if we rebel against authority, we're rebelling against god. He even went as far as to say that if you ran a stop-sign, you were sinning. Of course, this was during the Bush administration, I seriously doubt the preacher would say the same thing now, and I know a lot of the congregation wouldn't agree, since a lot of them are pretty sure Obama is the anti-christ, or close to it."

I've heard that line of thinking before, and I don't ascribe to it. I've read some statements by the Vatican that say the same thing. Then again, you can't really put too much stock into what a Southern Baptist church says is a sin, because basically everything is a sin to them. I took a dump the other day and didn't wash my hands for the full 30seconds afterwards, and I'd bet in some jurisdictions that would condemn me to hell for all eternity.

^^ There are several passages that deal explicitly with drinking to excess. Southern Baptists have, not surprisingly, taken those passages to the extreme to mean "don't ever drink any alcohol," which is a tough sell when you consider that one of Jesus' miracles was turning water into wine. More relevant to the original post in this thread, there are similar passages that speak about not being consumed by the desire for wealth, while not condemning having money in your pocket.

10/17/2013 9:49:10 PM

Quote :

"That's not a good interpretation of it, and I've never heard anyone posit it as one, but I wouldn't doubt there are some who would say that."

Please demonstrate the validity of this viewpoint. Why is my interpretation "not good"?

Is "wait it out until the next life where you will be rewarded for your humility" not a common trope throughout the Gospels and Epistles or did you read a different Bible than I did? Does "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" not reflect that?

This is a nonsensical statement if the idea is that everything is God's. The only context it makes sense to me is if the worldly things are separated from the hereafter's. And on the topic of worldly things, render unto fucking Caesar.

10/17/2013 10:17:10 PM

Well, I don't know what you really mean by "wait it out," so there's that. I don't see anything there saying "wait it out," whatever that means. There is certainly a thematic element throughout the Bible talking about greater rewards waiting in heaven, but a notion that we aren't supposed to enjoy any of this life isn't exactly scripturally supported.

I do agree with your last two sentences, and that's what I think the meaning is. Where you get "wait it out" I don't know, but I take that as a statement by Jesus that he's not really here to talk about gov't or politics, he's concerned about other stuff; "sure, obey your local laws, I'm not focused on that".

10/17/2013 10:30:30 PM

I think those that are confused with the concept of "Capitalist Christians" are people who either don't understand capitalism, don't understand Christianity, or both. More realistically, it's more likely a mix of understanding both at a shallow surface level.

Plenty of teaching from the Bible that tell us to work hard and being wise about what God's given us, yet being sacrificial with our wealth/blessings (1 Thessalonians 3:6-10, Luke 19:11-27, Acts 4:32-37). In fact, there are more scriptures talking about money than there are of faith, prayer, heaven and hell combined. So, God obviously is concerned about our wealth and how we handle it. Mostly because I think God knows we are creatures that tend to love/hoard/obsess our possessions. We are creatures who want, want, want... part of the reason we got into trouble in the Garden of Eden.

The downside is that the capitalist system is a double-edged sword for the Christian. On one side, capitalism allows one to acquire and manage wealth the most effectively. On the other hand, capitalism can breed the most materialistic and greedy jokers on the planet. As with most of you guys on this forum

The good news is that most of the wealthy in America are actually very generous. This country gives a ton to charity and ironically the wealthiest people in America are the most generous (Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg, etc...). In fact, the countries that are the biggest charity givers run on ... CAPITALISM!

Christians can be capitalists... and should be in my opinion.

10/18/2013 2:28:59 PM

(as has been menionted before, a large portion of that "charity" is actually money donated to churches to pay staff, build cathedrals, etc. not to people who actually need it.)

10/18/2013 2:43:18 PM

Quote :

"Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg, etc..."

All nontheists, btw. (not that that means squat about the propensity of nontheists to be charitable, just sayin' in a thread about christians you brought up some agnostics and atheists as your example)

[Edited on October 18, 2013 at 3:08 PM. Reason : .]

10/18/2013 3:07:31 PM

^ Exactly. If nontheists who have no special guiding book to tell them that they need to help the needy could do, just think of what theists who supposedly care for the poor/needy could do... Habitat for Humanity, Salvation Army, YMCA, Goodwill.

Y'all need to get on the ball Christian Capitalists!

10/18/2013 3:32:01 PM

Does building a 16K sq. foot home qualify you as a Capitalist Christian?

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/10/22/4407782/elevation-pastor-building-big.html#.UmfHZxBrv4U

Probably the most commented on story I've seen at the Observer since they switched to their Facebook comments only policy a few months back.

10/23/2013 8:57:34 AM

Who cares?

Those chumps pay him.

10/23/2013 9:14:47 AM

I only care because that money could be used to actually help people and better society.

10/23/2013 9:38:47 AM

[Edited on October 23, 2013 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

10/23/2013 12:25:05 PM

"If I wanna give all my money to a snake oil salesman, that's my God-given 1st Amendment right to do so and ain't no lyin' liberal gonna talk no sense into me!"

10/23/2013 9:27:10 PM

So did you guys hear about the "bishop of bling" in Germany?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24638430

Quote :

"The Vatican has suspended a senior German Church leader dubbed the "bishop of bling" by the media over his alleged lavish spending. Bishop of Limburg Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst is accused of spending more than $42m on renovating his official residence."

Quote :

"German media are reporting that the residence was fitted with a bath that cost 15,000 euros, a conference table for 25,000 euros and a private chapel that cost 2.9m euros."

10/24/2013 1:05:47 AM

He just forgot he wasn't living in the 1500s

10/24/2013 1:21:58 AM

The pope suspended his bishop-ship.

New pope rules

10/24/2013 8:15:44 AM

He's still a guy in a dress claiming to know things and be things he can't possibly know or be.....


...but that is pretty cool.

10/24/2013 8:57:48 AM

Yeah but if there's gonna be a guy in a dress leading a billion people, I'm glad it's this guy.

10/24/2013 8:59:25 AM

I am sure everything has been discussed here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_poverty_and_wealth

10/24/2013 10:53:30 PM

http://www.smarterlifestyles.com/2013/07/17/what-the-bible-says-about-money-shocking

10/25/2013 12:30:53 PM

Another report from Charlotte station WCNC on local megachurch Elevation:

http://www.wcnc.com/news/iteam/NBC-Charlotte-obtains-confidential-Elevation-Church-report-230557491.html

The reporter, Stuart Watson, has been on this story for a few weeks now. His comments at the end of the report make me wonder if he's planning a larger story on the tax exempt status of churches? Doubtful, but it did make me wonder how many people don't even realize churches are exempt from local property taxes. And then I wondered about the history of tax exempt status for churches in general.

Anyone know of a good book/article/link dealing with this topic?

[Edited on November 5, 2013 at 9:18 AM. Reason : ....]

11/5/2013 9:14:44 AM

http://www.wral.com/party-to-mark-billy-graham-s-95th-birthday/13084066/

Quote :

"The Rev. Franklin Graham says among those invited are President Bill Clinton, North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory and real estate mogul Donald Trump."

11/7/2013 10:41:03 AM

Billy Graham, that rich bigot

11/7/2013 12:37:22 PM

Quote :

"Billy Graham is one of the most godly, humble men to walk the planet. You must not know very much about him to make just ridiculous claims. You also don’t know much about the gospel of Jesus Christ. I suggest you study up on the truth."

11/7/2013 12:40:49 PM