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10/29/2013 9:43:45 AM

Quote :

"Just like women have to take responsibility, men also have to take responsibility. If you don't want a baby or some nasty STD, you just say NO or take responsibility for not saying no. Just like I'm immediately suspect of a guy who doesn't want to use a condom, I'd probably be pretty damned suspicious of a woman who says it's ok not to use a condom unless I'm practically married to the broad. Y'know, if I had a penis. I mean damn, it's pretty easy not to get pregnant and just as easy not to get someone pregnant."

Oh I see, so when the condom breaks men are just SOL eh?

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 9:47 AM. Reason : k]

10/29/2013 9:47:15 AM

If the condom breaks, you're both SOL or at least out 50 bucks. All you have to do is march your asses down to Planned Parenthood to get the morning after pill. I've done it. Twice. I've taken friends to do it. I've even driven a guy to the pharmacy to pick one up for the girl he banged the night before. And hopefully, if you're not banging it out with strangers on the regular, the girl you're fucking will be just as eager as you are to take the morning after pill. After all, she was fucking you with a condom, so she must not want a baby. If she refuses, then she's just crazy and you shouldn't have been sticking your dick in crazy.

10/29/2013 10:05:40 AM

Quote :

"A woman can decide raise a child on her own and have a happy life regardless of having no fatherly involvement, something to which many children of single moms can attest."

The majority of violent criminals come from single mother households. Children are meant to be raised by two or more adults, not put into daycare straight out of infancy, which is typically what happens when you have a single breadwinner. That's assuming that one doesn't become a ward of the state, in effect dumping their spawn right into the cycle of poverty with no clear mode of escape.

It's a two way street. Absentee fathers are scum, but women that have a child by men that they don't see as a potential father are pretty fucking bad too.

10/29/2013 10:35:32 AM

Quote :

"Children are meant to be raised by two or more adults, not put into daycare straight out of infancy, which is typically what happens when you have a single breadwinner."

Children with two working parents also end up in daycare

not everyone can afford to have a stay-at-home parent

10/29/2013 11:00:44 AM

Do you have any evidence that single parents create violent criminals? Violent crime rates have been in free fall since the mid-90s while single parenthood has continued to grow, at a slightly increasing pace I believe. You also need to consider countries like Iceland where almost 2/3rds of all kids only have a single parent, and yet they have crime rates even lower than the US.

10/29/2013 11:01:39 AM

Quote :

"A study of the Icelandic class system done by a University of Missouri master's student found only 1.1% of participants identified themselves as upper class, while 1.5% saw themselves as lower class. The remaining 97% identified themselves as upper-middle class, lower-middle class, or working class."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22288564

10/29/2013 11:10:49 AM

Quote :

"Children with two working parents also end up in daycare not everyone can afford to have a stay-at-home parent"

but generally, children of single parents are at a disadvantage. when a pregnancy is unplanned, one of the parents does not want a child, and you have the option to abort, why the hell would you keep it? selfishness and/or misplaced values

10/29/2013 11:17:01 AM

It's not that the deliberately or maliciously "create" monsters, it's that it amplifies the factors that we know for sure cause violent criminals. Poverty increases risk of crime, single parent families are more likely to be crime (resources needed, not enough people to get them). Even a cursory review of child development literature strongly suggests that early childhood affection and bonding significantly reduces behavioral problems later on - affection that is going to be much harder to provide when you're consumed by work to provide for you kids.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/the-real-complex-connection-between-single-parent-families-and-crime/265860/

I'm not shitting on single mothers here. They happen to be left with the baby most of the time for obvious reasons.

Quote :

"Children with two working parents also end up in daycare not everyone can afford to have a stay-at-home parent"

Yeah, and that's a real shame. Handing your toddlers off to strangers barely making minimum wage is unthinkable to me. I realize the some people have no choice, but there are a lot of people out there that have a choice and simply aren't willing to make the necessary sacrifices.

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 11:23 AM. Reason : ]

10/29/2013 11:18:50 AM

you should be required to get a birth control shot if you need to be on welfare. too many idiots are having kids that become idiots and our world is now full of morons. the educated reproduce at a much lower rate.

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM. Reason : .]

10/29/2013 11:37:33 AM

Quote :

"Poverty increases risk of crime"

Exactly, poverty is probably the most important variable. Now we have to step back and take a look at why our current system basically requires two average adult incomes to raise a kid. Didn't used to be that way. That's really the crux of the relationship between single parents and violent kids.

but even then I'm not fully convinced there is any significant relationship.

10/29/2013 11:41:08 AM

I think the single parent thing is a little off topic, but hell. . .

I think a lot of homes are effectively single parent homes. Most of the time children of divorce are with their mother and dad becomes an every other weekend parent. So, let's not hail married parents as the end all be all, since half of marriages end in divorce and render the kinds effectively the wards of a single parent.

And excuse me, I come from a single parent home. My father died before I went to kindergarten. My mother raised my brother and I all alone. We had pretty much everything that my friends with two parents had. I dare say we even had more than some of my two parent friends had. We were certainly closer to our mother than most of my friends were to their parents. One mom, no dad, and we turned out just fine. We're both college educated productive members of society without criminal records. And our mother did that. Alone. My brother wasn't even planned and she wasn't even planning on being alone with two kids, but she did it.

And yes, I think it comes down to poverty and the lack of an income. Not the presence of a body or lack thereof.

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM. Reason : ^]

10/29/2013 11:48:33 AM

Quote :

"It's a two way street. Absentee fathers are scum, but women that have a child by men that they don't see as a potential father are pretty fucking bad too."

I disagree, as long as they are meeting their state-mandated financial obligations (which i'm all for genetic testing to establish). People who know that they shouldn't be around children may not be doing a child any favors by forcing it. Abuse and neglect is worse than absence. If they make their absence clear from the beginning it's not nearly as harmful as abandonment.

Quote :

"i know that if i got a girl pregnant, and she wanted it and i didn't, i would feel pretty much obligated to be a part of the kid's life."

I think that sentiment is misplaced if you are convinced being a father isn't right for you. The state will obligate you to be part of the kid's life financially, which should nullify the worst of the 'single parent' effects everyone is worried about. Whether you admit it to yourself or not, begrudgingly paying child support is a practical risk of fucking without a condom, regardless of all other circumstances.

I'm pro-abortion. I think women should kill all of your unwanted babies, and the ones with any sense would take the morning after pill if they realized the birth control measures failed. But I insist that women come to these conclusions unaided. Offer to pay and take them there if you must, but all the begging and convincing that it's best for her is despicable. Pretty damn presumptuous to assume you know what's best for someone else.

10/29/2013 12:19:40 PM

what about the 18% of condoms that fail?

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/contraception.htm

10/29/2013 12:27:29 PM

^^
i don't know where to begin

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 12:28 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2013 12:28:38 PM

10/29/2013 12:42:32 PM

^^^I can only assume that a reasonable couple would agree they didn't want kids now before sex, communicate to each other that the condom failed before the end of intercourse and procure and take Plan B. But I think part of being a responsible sexual partner is talking about birth control before sex-- having that 'grownup' conversation long before problems start. And for men, accepting the reality of the law- once you nut, it's not up to you anymore.
Do your part and mention what-ifs beforehand, wear a condom, inspect it before and after to make sure it was intact- and this is a big one- dispose of it properly. But if you just can't accept these risks, you don't need to be having sex.


I can't find the case now, but there was a case in the Canadian supreme court a few years ago where a woman was a horrible creep and froze some guy's condom that he left at her house, froze the sperm, used it to impregnate herself 2 years later and then sued the guy for child support. The court chose to uphold the award to the weird lady, saying that sperm is 'given'. That's obviously a very extreme and fucked up situation, but demonstrates the need to take care of your sperm if you don't want it to fulfill it's biological function.

^^Start with a trip to the condom aisle.

^lol, 100% avoidable. take your condom with you.

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 12:47 PM. Reason : ]

10/29/2013 12:46:32 PM

Quote :

"Exactly, poverty is probably the most important variable. Now we have to step back and take a look at why our current system basically requires two average adult incomes to raise a kid. Didn't used to be that way. That's really the crux of the relationship between single parents and violent kids. but even then I'm not fully convinced there is any significant relationship."

It didn't used to be that way? Really?

A child used to be raised by an entire extended family - that's why I say two or more adults. There has never been a time in history where children were raised by single mothers on a massive scale. That is a relatively new phenomenon that has come about since the 1970s.

Now, children barely see their parents, and spend most of their childhood in a classroom with 30 other kids that also barely see their parents.

The fact that violent crime has gone down while single mother households have gone up is not proof that single mother households are no more or less likely to produce problem child (and, eventually, adults). It's just a continuing downward trend for violent crime.

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

10/29/2013 12:47:40 PM

because history looked like the tv shows

10/29/2013 12:50:23 PM

^^^
why would i make any effort to respond when you'll just cherry pick and repeat points i already refuted?

10/29/2013 1:01:40 PM

Quote :

"demonstrates the need to take care of your sperm if you don't want it to fulfill it's biological function."

ok, now you're trying waaay too hard to ruffle peoples' feathers

10/29/2013 1:15:06 PM

Quote :

"It didn't used to be that way? Really?"

in the 50s, 60s, and maybe the 70s the average family structure was the husband worked and the wife stayed home with their 2.5 kids. Therefore an average person's salary could support not just one dependent, but usually several. That's still true for some, but not most of us.

Quote :

"Now, children barely see their parents,"

agree, but don't you think that's more related to the direction of our economic system rather than the direction of our society/family system

Quote :

"The fact that violent crime has gone down while single mother households have gone up is not proof that single mother households are no more or less likely to produce problem child (and, eventually, adults). It's just a continuing downward trend for violent crime. "

I don't necessarily disagree, but it is a good indication that there are MUCH more important factors in determining if someone will become a violent criminal than the marital status of their parents

10/29/2013 1:59:32 PM

Quote :

" but all the begging and convincing that it's best for her is despicable. Pretty damn presumptuous to assume you know what's best for someone else."

this screams of a stram man argument, as do a number of your other points throughout this thread. who has stated ITT that they would try to convince the woman what would be best for her? keep your man-hating biases to yourself please.

Quote :

"communicate to each other that the condom failed before the end of intercourse and procure and take Plan B"

surely you realize that condom failure isn't always noticed during intercourse.

10/29/2013 2:18:26 PM

I gotta say that I agree with Green Jay's assertion that you should discuss these things prior to sex.

And if you don't know that the condom failed AFTER sex so you can march to Planned Parenthood, then you're a careless dumbass. I use to teach comprehensive sex ed and when you pull out you should make note of the integrity of the condom post sex just as you should prior to sex. Then again I chalk failed condoms primarily up to improper education and use. Rips, tears, holes, slippage... you should notice unless you're drunk and that's a whole other problem.

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 2:46 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2013 2:44:45 PM

Quote :

"Now, children barely see their parents, "

Not true: in fact, we now spend more time with our children than previously

Quote :

"Before 1995, mothers spent an average of about 12 hours a week attending to the needs of their children. By 2007, that number had risen to 21.2 hours a week for college-educated women and 15.9 hours for those with less education."

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/surprisingly-family-time-has-grown/

10/29/2013 2:49:34 PM

21 hours a week?!?!?

WTF?

10/29/2013 2:54:36 PM

I spend 35-40 hours a week tending to the needs of other people's children.

10/29/2013 2:57:25 PM

It says fathers are up to 10 hours a week. And no average child over the age of 3 should have 31 hours of needs to be tended to each week. According to one of the comments, the increase is due to parents driving their older children to and from activities and that time spent tending to the needs of children under the age of 5 has actually decreased. That makes more sense to me.

10/29/2013 3:29:03 PM

Quote :

"I gotta say that I agree with Green Jay's assertion that you should discuss these things prior to sex."

That certainly is a best case scenario, but obviously that's not going to happen every time.

Quote :

"when you pull out you should make note of the integrity of the condom post sex just as you should prior to sex. "

Outside of pulling out a microscope or something you're not going to catch everything right? Good practice all the same though, to catch any obvious issues.

10/29/2013 4:35:36 PM

haha what the fuck is going on in here? discuss whether or not you would keep a potential baby with a hookup? inspect your condom post-coitus for leaks?

we're in bizarro land

10/29/2013 4:51:05 PM

make sure to stick your used rubber in your pocket. bring it home later to sterelize it with UV light. and always carry a few spare plan B pills in your wallet, just in case.

10/29/2013 5:00:24 PM

after you buy her drinks, offer to pay for an std test. wait a couple weeks for the results.

then it's time to fuuuuck

10/29/2013 5:08:01 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't current trends dictate crushing up a morning after pill, and cooking it into the pancakes you bring her in the morning?

10/29/2013 5:35:05 PM

Fucking random hoes you buy drinks at the bar is just asking for an STD. If she fucks you after a drink, who knows what else she's fucked. And if she's asking you to ditch the condom and go raw dog? Ewwww.

But seriously, you should at least ask about her last test. Some of us could probably even show you proof.

10/29/2013 5:42:01 PM

Somewhere, lewisje is laughing at all of you.

10/29/2013 5:48:27 PM

In Ms. Jay's first post, she said that it would be rude and immature to tell someone to have an abortion, and she's absolutely right. Of course, you can still do that--people do rude, immature things all the time. But the more polite thing to do is to make very clear the level of interest you have in raising a child...if you feel shitty telling a woman that you don't plan to be around, that sucks but it's still important to make that clear to her if she comes to you with the news.

Now, y'all should feel free to not have sex if you're that paranoid about some woman trying to trap you. As long as you're having sex though, you should do so knowing that you might knock somebody up. Access to abortion and birth control is great, but these things are for women--nothing has changed about your role. And there are a billion men who came before you who supported their children without being whiney babies about it.

I'm sure they'll develop painless, reversible vasectomies for you guys, but in the meantime, this is how life works. It's pretty basic biology, and as a society, we need you to look after your offspring. Your super high gamerscore or the introspective novel you've been writing just aren't that important.

10/29/2013 6:23:28 PM

Quote :

"you don't plan to be around"

You can't "not be around" if you're not a shitty person, for many reasons. It's a decision that involves more than just the woman. You're a moron if you birth a child that one of the parents doesn't want. You're forever altering another person's life, and your family's life, and introducing a kid into a potentially shitty situation, because you want something that can be gotten elsewhere, from a willing donor. You fucked up equally. It's your right to choose, but don't be an asshole.

10/29/2013 6:42:49 PM

I think that in the future, men will freeze vials of their goof juice for future use, and then get a vasectomy.

10/29/2013 6:49:15 PM

Quote :

"children of single parents who don't love each other are at a significant disadvantage"

Fixed it for you.

I work with children. I've seen every type of family situation you can imagine. The kids with the most behavioral problems now and the ones I'm most worried about making poor decisions later in life are ones who come from homes with no love. Especially parents who stuck together "for the sake of the kid" even though they can't stand each other. Those kids will grow up not knowing how to be in a loving relationship because they won't know what one looks like.

10/29/2013 6:51:16 PM

Quote :

"In Ms. Jay's first post, she said that it would be rude and immature to tell someone to have an abortion, and she's absolutely right."

Sure, but who in this thread is saying they would tell someone to have an abortion? Another straw man.

Quote :

" You're a moron if you birth a child that one of the parents doesn't want."

I don't agree with that.

10/29/2013 7:22:22 PM

^
Why? In what situation is that a good thing to do?

10/29/2013 7:24:12 PM

Can we discuss the father not wanting the child, and the mother agreeing to him signing his rights/obligation away?

10/29/2013 7:31:59 PM

Then you're raising a kid who is going to wonder why his/her dad didn't want her.

I'd still feel guilty, personally. If the woman made the stupid decision to keep it, I'd be as good a damn father as I could be.

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 7:43 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2013 7:35:18 PM

Quote :

"adultswim: You fucked up equally. It's your right to choose, but don't be an asshole."

If our aim here is to assign blame and talk shit, then, yes, both men and women are generally selfish morons. That's a given.

Quote :

"synapse: Sure, but who in this thread is saying they would tell someone to have an abortion? Another straw man."

?

These are the remarks that inspired this whole discussion you guys have been having:

Quote :

"If I didn't love her, I'd probably be like Please get an abortion. Please, please, please get an abortion. I'll pay, just please, please, please get the goddamned abortion."

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 9:52 PM. Reason : ]

10/29/2013 9:51:36 PM

Quote :

"Ms. Jay"

am I missing something here?

10/29/2013 10:30:41 PM

Yes

10/29/2013 10:41:50 PM

^^^^^ I've heard these things don't always stand up. I want to say I've heard of a case that a dude donated his sperm via a private contract (not through a bank), had lawyers draw everything up, but the woman went all turkey baster instead of using a fertility doctor. Because of this caveat, the contracts were null and void, and he was financially liable. If youre liable in a case where you never had sex, how can you ever not be in a case where you did. This may have been in Florida... So who knows if that had something to do with it.

^^theyre just trying to sound smart by being pretend formal.

[Edited on October 29, 2013 at 10:43 PM. Reason : ^]

10/29/2013 10:43:35 PM

so....he is a she?

10/29/2013 10:43:45 PM

Pretty sure green jay has a vagina. And not the lewisje kind.

10/29/2013 10:46:16 PM

Green Jay definitely has a vagina.

10/29/2013 10:52:02 PM