Quote :

"That does seem to wildly escalate the situation."

Sometimes it's just the way it happens. Right, wrong or indifferent, it just plays out that way.

8/22/2014 5:32:00 PM

Quote :

"Then the headline is (police flee from knife wielding man, onlooker stabbed to death due to police cowards)"

1. There has never been such a headline. Barney Fife is all to ready to shoot his bullet
2. Citizens right to kill in self defense is more well defined than a cops
3. I for one would welcome that headline over more videos of cops over reacting.

8/22/2014 5:33:32 PM

Just another example of the police escalating a situation and manufacturing the "justification" for use of lethal force. Forgetting everything up until the man starts to approach the officers before he gets shot, then it certainly seems like justified use of lethal force (armed person approaching quickly and within close range). However, it's that little part before all of this that is the problem. The situation was manipulated into what it became.

8/22/2014 5:33:41 PM

Quote :

"Sometimes it's just the way it happens. Right, wrong or indifferent, it just plays out that way."

Okay, well "shit happens" isn't going to cut it when we're talking about the deliberate actions of police.

8/22/2014 5:35:58 PM

Also, the St. Louis incident displays how out of touch LEO is. The Ferguson shooting had just happend with riots and all. Instead of thinking the situation through before they exited the vehicle they got out and 15 seconds later executed another civilian.

Think about how different this would have come off to the public had they talked him down and arrested him. That one act alone could have eased this entire situation.


Instead, the hot heads got out, stood their ground, issued their scripted lines and when he was within 8 feet.... pow pow pow pow pow pow pow pow....... pow pow.

8/22/2014 5:38:07 PM

I'll take the bait..

The guy was uncompliant and aggressive at 10' and closing fast. The guns were justified

Want the officers to tase him? Ever hear of how cops might get 2 out of 10 shots on target in a real situation? Not very good odds for a single-shot weapon

Want the officers to go toe-to-toe (even with batons, nightsticks, etc)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vFcpQQiSTg

Excessive shooting? If there were 10 cops out there, 10 cops probably would have shot. That's just how it is. Take the guy out, protect your partners. (Now I'm imagining an enemy sniper situation where one officer/soldier shoots it out while the others just sit around watching...)

8/22/2014 5:54:30 PM

Quote :

"talked him down"

Quote :

"he was within 8 feet"

he's beyond talking

Quote :

"Forgetting everything up until the man starts to approach the officers"

He approaches the immediately after the police car stops and is already within the 21' rule with a known weapon

[Edited on August 22, 2014 at 6:03 PM. Reason : ]

8/22/2014 5:58:40 PM

dude, they were in a car. The point is, they could have de-escalated the situation.

8/22/2014 6:14:45 PM

Quote :

"The guy was uncompliant and aggressive at 10' and closing fast. The guns were justified"

The dude was not closing fast, wasn't doing much of anything very fast, just sort of sauntering around

8/22/2014 6:34:05 PM

Quote :

"The guy was uncompliant and aggressive at 10' and closing fast. The guns were justified"

Come onnnnn buddy, they came out of the vehicle with their guns aimed...long before the guy was uncompliant and closing "fast"

Quote :

"Want the officers to tase him? Ever hear of how cops might get 2 out of 10 shots on target in a real situation? Not very good odds for a single-shot weapon"

I'd like to see your data...plus there was another officer with a run pointed at the guy.

Quote :

"Between Jan. 1, 2013, and March 4, RichmondCounty sheriff’s deputies filed 317 use of force reportsthat involved the TASER X2.•?Subject shot with TASER - 183•?TASER pulled but not fired - 90•?Used as “drive stun” - 55•?Officer fired TASER but missed - 20•?Accidental discharge – 5"

http://tinyurl.com/n9kfctu

Quote :

"Excessive shooting? If there were 10 cops out there, 10 cops probably would have shot. That's just how it is. "

I don't really get your point. In this case there were 2 cops and 1 cop shot.

[Edited on August 22, 2014 at 6:53 PM. Reason : I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you're pretty far off the reservation here]

8/22/2014 6:43:29 PM

Man with Knife Shot, Killed by Police Officers

Quote :

"Howard County police said a man with a knife who was shot and killed by police had recently been talking about suicide. Police were called to the 5000 block of Montgomery Road in Ellicott City, Maryland, early Saturday morning after a 911 call reporting a man with a knife was planning to kill people. Detectives believe the calls were made by the suspect himself. When officers arrived, they were confronted by a 61-year-old man with a knife in the front yard. One officer used a Taser weapon, but the man was able to run back inside the house. Police said the man re-emerged a few moments later with the knife and approached officers. Two officers repeatedly ordered the man to drop the weapon, but he kept moving toward them. The officers fired their weapons, killing the suspect. Family members told detectives that he has been recently talking about suicide. One person was inside the home at the time and was uninjured."

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Man-with-Knife-Shot-Killed-by-Police-Officers-272416441.html

TASERS don't always work and are not the end-all, be-all alternative to firearms.

8/23/2014 12:24:46 PM

Yeah, but at least they tried it first

8/23/2014 2:10:20 PM

I like how they cuffed the dead body. Doesn't seem sketchy at all.

8/23/2014 2:21:52 PM

Quote :

"just sort of sauntering around straight to the cop"

I have been in a real-life situation with 2 guys "sauntering" towards me and got within 20 feet. I turned (they chased) and luckily ran into a store about 25' behind me.
I assure you he's not walking up closer to have a conversation. Put yourself in the officer's shoes. Imagine yourself standing in your driveway or at an ATM and this crazy fellow approaches in the same manner.

I'm not willing to chance a life-or-death situation with thoughts like "maybe I'll maintain the upper hand and keep the situation under control" and I don't expect law enforcement to either.

The best alternative I can agree with is for the officers to have stayed in the car. Since they left the car with guns drawn, I can't see them ducking back into the car, closing doors, re-holstering and going for Tasers,etc with how quickly the situation progressed.

Quote :

"I'd like to see your data.."

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

Sorry, I assumed the 2nd officer shot a few shots; I'm actually pretty surprised.

[Edited on August 23, 2014 at 9:33 PM. Reason : ]

8/23/2014 9:32:39 PM

Quote :

"But you believe a cop should have to be seriously injured or killed before they are able to use deadly force against someone else?"

Not exactly in those terms but...

If you're going to assume the power that comes with being a cop then yeah, maybe you should be a little bit prepared to get hurt.

[Edited on August 23, 2014 at 10:00 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2014 9:59:13 PM

Quote :

"Not exactly in those terms but... If you're going to assume the power that comes with being a cop then yeah, maybe you should be a little bit prepared to get hurt."

I was trying to stay out of this, but seriously? You're a fool.

Like a soldier should just be dead or a fire fighter burned? Of course we are prepared for it, we leave our houses just like you leave yours, but we "prepare" to not return and not come back in one piece. That doesn't mean we have to allow it to happen. In fact, we do everything we can to ensure that horrible things we are subject to, DON'T happen.

It's obviously the worst part of our responsibilities but using deadly force isn't always for our benefit either. If knife man came running at YOU with the knife, should someone risk attempting to tase him and presumable fail at it, and you get stabbed to death yourself?

Deadly force is used to protect OURSELVES and OTHERS from the uses or IMMINENT use of a deadly threat.

There is always so much Monday morning quarterbacking after an officer has to make split second decisions between life/death. Is it ever pretty? No. Does it ever feel good for anyone? No. But that is an unfortunate responsibility of the position that obviously not everyone understands or could manage.



On this specific event, everyone is assuming that these two officers knew exactly what they were rolling up on. Like they had a 10 minute drive there to prepare a a plan of action knowing exactly who,what, and where they were dealing with this guy.

Ever think that it was a complete surprise to them as soon as their car was put in park? Its highly likely the call came in as a "shoplifting just occurred" or a "disturbance" or "refusal to pay/leave".... All these variables change everything in an officer's approach, preparedness for action etc.

8/23/2014 11:32:31 PM

soldiers regularly go into dangerous areas with stricter ROEs than police have

[Edited on August 23, 2014 at 11:40 PM. Reason : and marines]

8/23/2014 11:37:57 PM

Quote :

"soldiers regularly go into dangerous areas with stricter ROEs than police have"

Usually true. But again that's comparing apples to oranges. Just because at some point both military and police have the legal authority to use deadly force does not make it the same.

Military has a whole different set of ROE and responsibilities. Military also goes it to a dangerous war zone with innocent non-threats and threats alike (not that everyone and anyone can be a threat). But ROE are in place for them to prevent innocent's from being neutralized just do to being in a target area or war zone (among many many many other variables). That's why in war, we don't just drop bombs and flatten entire countries.

Law enforcement has a million other responsibilities and that includes stopping deadly threats to themselves or others obviously domestically in a "non-war zone." We all don't like deadly force and what it entails, but just like doing speed enforcement and taking reports for lost cell phones... Law enforcement has the responsibilities to face threats head on. When gunfire and bad guys are chasing the innocent away, police are running towards.

This includes the people who hate cops and want to kill them, hate themselves and want to commit suicide by cop, and who may be so mentally unstable they are just a threat to everyone completely. It's a threat period, and it doesn't always end in DEATH, but obviously has great potential to since the level of force required to stop these types of threat can be lethal.

[Edited on August 23, 2014 at 11:53 PM. Reason : Derped.]

8/23/2014 11:52:05 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/08/21/police-militarization-ferguson-crime-violence-justice-bureau-column/14307505/?showmenu=true

8/23/2014 11:58:20 PM

Quote :

"But again that's comparing apples to oranges."

You introduced the comparison of the apples and the oranges, pal.

Quote :

"Like a soldier should just be dead or a fire fighter burned?"

because simply saying a cop should be prepared to get hurt is literally the same as saying "A SOLDIER SHOULD JUST BE DEAD."

[Edited on August 24, 2014 at 12:06 AM. Reason : .]

8/24/2014 12:05:57 AM

Quote :

"The brain is still saying oh fuck, you need to still kill that shit, but you can't process quickly enough that the guy is lying on the ground."

if you're such a huge pussy that your brain can't handle a guy with a knife 10 ft away, while you have a gun and backup, maybe you shouldn't be a cop? or maybe what you just said is a huge load of bullshit? i'm wagering it's somewhere inbetween the two.

8/24/2014 12:08:33 AM

I used them as an example of comparing your ignorant comment of what professionals with certain responsibilities should be "prepared for."

I did not use them to compare what their ROE is vs A LEO ROE is.


Keep up champ.

8/24/2014 12:09:02 AM

Quote :

"if you're such a huge pussy that your brain can't handle a guy with a knife 10 ft away, while you have a gun and backup, maybe you shouldn't be a cop? or maybe what you just said is a huge load of bullshit? i'm wagering it's somewhere inbetween the two. "

I'm not sure you realize how quickly someone can cover 10 feet.

8/24/2014 12:19:18 AM

Quote :

"if you're such a huge pussy that your brain can't handle a guy with a knife 10 ft away, while you have a gun and backup, maybe you shouldn't be a cop? or maybe what you just said is a huge load of bullshit? i'm wagering it's somewhere inbetween the two."

I'll say that what he said is a very poor way of describing it...


When you face a threat of death or serious physical injury. Cop or not, you automatically go in to SOME state of the natural fight or flight mode. Obviously when facing a threat like this most cops control this state of reaction to the best of their abilities (usually heavily based on training and experience with same). Cop 1 isn't going to be instantly thinking "i have a gun i can use so I'm safe, because that's not always going to save you, and im much safer just because i have a backup" Cop 1 is in a controlled "fight" mode of protecting himself from this deadly threat, Cop 2 is in "fight" mode of protecting Cop 1 from the threat.

They delay comes from your controlled but naturally frightened brain going "stop the threat stop the threat stop the threat" until "ok reassess and the threat has stopped and is no longer a threat."

It happens very quickly, though, when you're able to watch it on video you see a cop shoot after the guy has fallen. You see him fall instantly and hear more gunfire. The cop is pulling that trigger as fast as he can to stop this threat and by the time his brain says "no threat stop shooting" the guy had hit the ground for half a second to a second...

8/24/2014 12:20:32 AM

^^
yes, but in your video, there was only one cop, his gun was not drawn, and the perp was <5 ft away. not much of a comparison there.

edit: just saw the 10 ft one. my other points still stand.

^
i don't buy it. they should be trained to handle this type of situation. show me the studies you mentioned on the first page.

[Edited on August 24, 2014 at 12:31 AM. Reason : .]

8/24/2014 12:29:52 AM

The video goes farther than 10 ft.

Also, so what if there was 2 cops? How does that change anything? Do you want both of them to charge the dude with the knife?

[Edited on August 24, 2014 at 12:40 AM. Reason : a]

8/24/2014 12:40:00 AM

more than one cop, with guns drawn?

also, the guy in the video never charged, or even approached. he was walking their perimeter.

[Edited on August 24, 2014 at 12:45 AM. Reason : .]

8/24/2014 12:44:07 AM

These cops overreacted and should be dealt with. 6 shots max should have been taken. That's 2-3 shots per officer to immobilize the guy. You slow the threat and retreat if you have to, but you don't pump him full of lead.

8/24/2014 12:45:10 AM

Here are two good articles that will help wrap your mind around this. Also making valid points like I already did about the training etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/opinion/haberfeld-why-six-bullets-fired/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

http://www2.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1998/febleb.pdf

8/24/2014 12:45:28 AM

Quote :

"These cops overreacted and should be dealt with. 6 shots max should have been taken. That's 2-3 shots per officer to immobilize the guy. You slow the threat and retreat if you have to, but you don't pump him full of lead."

Again. An obvious assertion form someone who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. 6 shots is ok, but 10-12 is not? I promise you they were not counting as they were pulling the trigger, they were watching him, most likely fixated on the knife in his hand, didn't hear or see anything else. When their brain finally caught up and they stopped firing it was over. There's no shoot to wound and retreat. 1 shot can be just as deadly as 6, 12, or 100.

What if one of the cops shot 5 times and the other only once? What if cop 1 shot all 6, and the other didn't shoot. You don't even make sense, you have no sense of reality and instantaneous life/death situations.

You're an idiot.

[Edited on August 24, 2014 at 12:52 AM. Reason : ....]

8/24/2014 12:48:59 AM

Quote :

"they should be trained to handle this type of situation"

train all you want. shit goes out the window real fast in real life. your bright orange rubber guns become ear-deafening, disorienting, recoiling SOBs.

Quote :

"a cop should be prepared to get hurt"

wtf

Quote :

"if you're such a huge pussy that your brain can't handle a guy with a knife 10 ft away, while you have a gun and backup, maybe you shouldn't be a cop"

So since the cop has a gun and backup (and is expected to risk his neck more than the average citizen), he should have let that guy right into his personal space with a knife, eh?

Quote :

"the guy in the video never charged, or even approached. he was walking their perimeter"

how far shall their perimeter be? 21'? well, so much for that. and "approached?" the guy started at about 25' from the car and ended about 10' from it.

[Edited on August 24, 2014 at 1:13 AM. Reason : ]

8/24/2014 1:09:06 AM

Quote :

"I used them as an example of comparing your ignorant comment of what professionals with certain responsibilities should be "prepared for.""

That sentence doesn't really make sense, but okay!

8/24/2014 2:37:36 AM

Officers ITT: Do you think it was appropriate for the officers to come out of their vehicle with their guns drawn, or should they have reserved that for when/if the subject approached them?

8/24/2014 11:23:30 AM

Quote :

"Officers ITT: Do you think it was appropriate for the officers to come out of their vehicle with their guns drawn, or should they have reserved that for when/if the subject approached them?"

Drawn? Yes, very appropriate.

8/24/2014 12:15:13 PM

I guess I mean aimed then. I'm not all that solid on gun terminology

8/24/2014 12:20:22 PM

Again, yes... They exited their vehicle and observed a male who was wielding a knife and non-compliant to verbal commands. Covering them with a firearm would be quite standard as they could (and were) forced to act quickly.

8/24/2014 12:24:42 PM

Who was issuing commands prior to them exiting their vehicle?

8/24/2014 1:13:32 PM

I'm sorry, Ultraspank. You can never be too careful.

http://www.policeone.com/chiefs-sheriffs/articles/7493463-Texas-chief-killed-serving-warrant/

8/24/2014 1:42:16 PM

http://www.odmp.org


This will give you the breakdown of LOD deaths in law enforcement. If you didn't already read earlier. The average LOD deaths is about 200 per year, though it has gone down in the past few years. That's an average of 200 deaths per year of officers who are trying not to die every day they go to work, wearing vests, with armored cars, and protecting themselves with deadly force.

So the average lethal uses of force for police in this country being around 400, is low if you think about it. The lower that number goes the better, but maybe it will help you fathom where these statistics come from.

8/24/2014 2:14:59 PM

Half of those are auto accidents, probably while talking on the phone for non work related stuff

8/24/2014 2:22:39 PM

Actually that would be closer to a quarter of them, and it has to do with emergency response places..


Troll it up bruh.

8/24/2014 2:24:30 PM