So these jedi ghosts are just floating around watching the Empire rip shit across the galaxy when they can selectively call down lightning from the heavens?

The rebels escape is predicated on Po wondering how Luke got into the cave. Which he didn't even do. He just appeared.

Kylo had to return to the fleet because they couldn't provide support? From the fighters in the hanger he just nuked?

An organization that modals itself after the empire, an organization where people were routinely choked to death for doubting leadership is now helmed by Sgt. Shultz.

Luke had a moment of doubt. And by moment he means he waited till Ben was asleep. Walked from the temple to Hagrid's hut. Loomed over his nephew contemplating. Then turned on his super loud murder weapon.

12/18/2017 6:45:03 PM

Also "They really hate that ship."

Why? It's only attacked the First Order once.


Had no idea how much I hated this.
Why can't I just be happy Chewbacca flew the falcon?

[Edited on December 18, 2017 at 6:55 PM. Reason : I actually miss pod racing. ]

12/18/2017 6:52:26 PM

Same. The more I think about it, the more I dislike it.

12/18/2017 7:08:10 PM

Kylo saw Luke light up that blue saber and thought, "Must be another one. Can't be the one I just ripped in half."

Also Luke's extensive training never included a chapter of "Oh yeah, we can make holograms on other planets."

Should they really fear a resistance that doesn't own enough explosives to move a pile of rocks? That's 19th century coal miner technology.

12/18/2017 7:18:46 PM

I still think nothing tops the ridiculousness of Leia flying through fucking space. She isn't a Jedi master (none of whom have shown the ability to survive in the vacuum of space, let alone fly like Superman) and yet she does the most unbelievable thing in the entire saga. I think that was the exact moment TLJ jumped the shark for me. It would have been one thing for Luke to do it, but that shit was just over the top.

Also the goddamn bombs man. I can't even.

12/18/2017 7:43:55 PM

I loved everything about this movie. Best movie going experience I've had in a long time. It was funny, exciting, never a full moment, and I'll probably see it at least 1 more time in theatres. It's basically the star wars movie I've always wanted, and is by far the best star wars flick of all time. Imho

12/18/2017 7:46:41 PM

Quote :

"Also Luke's extensive training never included a chapter of "Oh yeah, we can make holograms on other planets.""

He never had extensive training. He had basic training in Empire. One of the many reasons he failed as a teacher.

Luke levitates himself. Once to stop from falling, another at the end. That ability is the same used for Leia.

In truth, that shot is hated because of how its shot and how she poses while 'flying'

It invokes too much superman/witch/harry potter imagery. It should have been unique. Have her do something else that forces movement or shows her invoking some skill.

12/18/2017 7:51:02 PM

The Leia scene was kind of silly, but I don't get all the outrage really. You're content believing in an ancient hokey religion known as The Force and have no problem with people being able to levitate and lift spaceships and stuff. But as soon as someone with force powers in their bloodline flies through space for a little bit, that is the last straw?

12/18/2017 7:52:02 PM

^^"Luke's extensive training" = The training Kylo got from Luke

As in he would see a fucking holoLuke coming instead of water dancing with him. Or just being on that planet at all.





Maybe it's my fucked up brain that is at fault. For example, when they initial thought when they mentioned tracking the ship I for some reason assumed Phasma had a way of tracking Fin. That's why him loading up the escape pod mades sense. Instead he's just a coward. Wasn't he standing down certain death against in a lightsaber battle just a few days(?) ago?

[Edited on December 18, 2017 at 8:06 PM. Reason : .]

12/18/2017 7:56:11 PM

^^its not about realism. Its about consistency.

12/18/2017 9:01:35 PM

So Leia's force abilities should be consistent with her force abilities 30 years earlier in RotJ?

12/18/2017 9:13:05 PM

It's not like she's using the force to overcome gravity and air resistance. Doesn't take much energy to move through space.

And there's precedent of untrained people using the force in previously unseen ways when their life is on the line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By-CKsffwKA

There is also precedent for Jedi using the force to propel their bodies forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY4tXUtu9_I

[Edited on December 18, 2017 at 9:28 PM. Reason : ]

12/18/2017 9:25:08 PM

I'm still waiting for the precedent of an untrained person using the force to survive in the vacuum of space.

I don't really give a shit that she "flew". That's some dumb Disney bullshit. But surviving in space while being knocked unconscious in the explosion that sent you into space is quite far fetched in the star wars universe.

12/18/2017 9:40:50 PM

I'm telling you, it wasn't shot right. It was presented to the audience wrong. On top of the audience not understanding how she survived space.

12/18/2017 9:41:35 PM

Yes Leia "flying" is one of the weirdest thing to get upset about. Wouldn't take much more ability than the little kid with the broom. Just reach out and "pull" the spaceship.

Not immediately freezing to death though?

12/18/2017 10:21:55 PM

Well, her father was basically swimming in lava at one point in his life and he didn't die

12/18/2017 10:38:03 PM

The worst thing you can do is think about this movie honestly. Laugh when they say. Cheer when they say. Don't get invested in the universe though because no one's motivations matter and pretty much everyone is dead.

12/18/2017 11:44:14 PM

She is at least as powerful as Luke. All you neckbeards mean to tell me you can't suspend disbelief enough to think that maybe she picked up a couple things from her Legendary Jedi Master brother over 30 years? Or that, being so powerful, in times of stress The Force just works through her anyway? Christ, it's a movie about space wizards.

I saw explosions, laser sword battles, and weird aliens. Seemed like Star Wars to me.

12/19/2017 7:36:19 AM

You wouldn't freeze instantly in space. There is no matter around to remove your heat through convection or conduction, so you would only lose it through radiation.

Also I didn't see this much bitching about it in Guardians of the Galaxy.

12/19/2017 8:25:54 AM

Quote :

"For example, when they initial thought when they mentioned tracking the ship I for some reason assumed Phasma had a way of tracking Fin. That's why him loading up the escape pod mades sense."

Thanks for mentioning this, the way the movie was cut (first order guy says they can track them, cut immediately to a close up of Finn in that health chamber thing) made me think he had an implant from his stormtrooper days.

The more I read this thread the more flaws I see lol. I also think if you went in thinking any of the following would happen, you'd be disappointed:
- Luke kick ass
- Snoke origin story reveal
- Rey parents reveal

I still enjoyed it. Wouldn't rank it above any of the original trilogy or TFA, though.

12/19/2017 8:43:10 AM

She wouldn't freeze instantly, no, but her blood would start to boil. I think a lot more "reasonable" thing for her to have done would be to have somehow used the force to stop her from being flung into space. It would have looked a lot less hokey then her gliding around. Seems like it may be more consistent with her force powers too.

^When they said they were being tracked, I thought they had a spy on board. I think that rather than having Finn and Rose go to the casino planet, it would have been way cooler to have Finn and Poe trying to track down a spy.

Quote :

"Well, her father was basically swimming in lava at one point in his life and he didn't die"

Dude was a trained Jedi/Sith master. On top of that, he was the most powerful force user the galaxy had ever seen at the time.

Quote :

"And there's precedent of untrained people using the force in previously unseen ways when their life is on the line."

Luke had some light training in the force at the time from Obi-Wan. Enough to turn the proton torpedoes 90 degrees into the exhaust port. Also, the amount of energy needed move a lightsaber a foot to your hand seems like it would be quite a bit less than how much is needed to create some kind of vacuum bubble to breath/not die then overcome the momentum from the explosion and push you however long back to a ship.

Quote :

"There is also precedent for Jedi using the force to propel their bodies forward. "

That is also a case of two trained and experienced Jedi. Qui-Gonn was a Jedi master at that point and Obi-Wan was a few days away from finishing his training.

12/19/2017 9:20:09 AM

Quote :

"I saw explosions, laser sword battles, and weird aliens. Seemed like Star Wars to me. "

Thank you. This is what Disney bet on and they were right. Fans will watch whatever shit they put a SW logo on and the general public will giggle for the quips. Was there a shawarma post credit scene?

12/19/2017 9:34:41 AM

It's Star Wars, not Citizen Kane.

12/19/2017 10:41:52 AM

I know. It's right in the title.

12/19/2017 2:31:45 PM

In the other thread I said this movie is a middle finger to TFA and to a lot of the preexisting Star Wars cannon. Here are my reasons:

1) Star Wars is more fantasy than it is science fiction when you examine the story elements, and part of the intrigue of fntasy is the mysticism and mythology.

1a) Anakin's lightsaber...big deal surrounding it in TFA, that beautiful shot of Rey reaching out to hand it over to Luke...Luke just tosses it away a second later as if it's no big deal that Rey even has it.

1b) Snoke...so old and ancient that he saw the empire rise and fall. There's something special and secret about him. Nevermind, he died at the wit of a boy who has done nothing but failed to live up to his potential his entire life.

1c) The Force isn't about lifting rocks! Except when it is.

1d) Rey's parents. They knew fanboys were chomping at the bit to find out her ancestry. But they got trolled big time.


2) Finn & Phasma. What was even the point of having them meet back up and fight now? Why not save that for the final chapter? Also, everything blows up around them and everyone is dead, except for Finn, Rose, and Phasma. Go figure.

3) Finn & Rose. Total waste. They had the lieutenant lady sacrifice herself by light-speeding into the dreadnought, the only good thing she did the whole movie, but Finn isn't allowed to sacrifice himself...because love? Rose LOVES her some heroes, but won't allow Finn to become one after embarrassing him earlier for not being one.

4) Finn's side mission. I have much appreciation for failed missions. In fact, failure is the clear theme of this movie. Finn's mission fails. But oops, turns out he never had to go on this mission anyway because the resistance did in fact have a plan that didn't involve turning off the tracking system.

5) "Let the old ways die." That's the moral of this movie. Luke says the Force will continue without the Jedi. Rey is a nobody, so anybody has the potential for greatness, it isn't hereditary. Kylo betrays Snoke, just to remain dark side and not join Rey to find the balance. TFA was a retelling of ANH, and this movie says "screw that, we're going to show all the reasons why it didn't have to be." (I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing, but it makes no sense as part 2 of a trilogy to undo EVERYTHING set up in part 1).

12/19/2017 2:51:07 PM

On another note, Benicio del Toro's character (DJ?)...I guess he was kind of like the new Lando? But he had no redemption and no purpose. They called Maz for help, she provided none other than go find someone else I'm busy (because union disputes trump the potential end of the resistance?), and knew the right guy would be wearing a special pin.

I was waiting for some big reveal that the guy in the casino had stolen it or won it from DJ in a bet, and DJ was the one they were looking for the whole time. Nope! It was meaningless. Total trolling.

12/19/2017 2:55:30 PM

Quote :

"Also "They really hate that ship." Why?"

Kylo told them go after because it's Han Solo's ship and he really hates his father.

I thought the special FX for Leia flying back to the ship were bad, but I don't have much of a problem with the actual scene. We don't know exactly how much training she's had with the Force since RotJ and in RotJ Luke actually says she'd learn use it like he does.

12/19/2017 3:14:57 PM

I'm glad when I watch a movie, I don't go in with a bunch of ridiculous expectations. It's a good way to set yourself up for disappointment.

12/19/2017 3:16:06 PM

My expectations couldn't have been lower.
The prequels do that to you.

12/19/2017 4:02:22 PM

Quote :

"and knew the right guy would be wearing a special pin."

She also knew exactly where he would be at exactly what time, but didn't bother to even tell them his name...

12/19/2017 4:26:52 PM

Quote :

"I was waiting for some big reveal that the guy in the casino had stolen it or won it from DJ in a bet, and DJ was the one they were looking for the whole time. Nope! It was meaningless. Total trolling. "

How was it trolling? They never once indicated it was the right guy. In fact I pretty clearly remember them saying it wasn't him. Maz said the guy with the lapel was the only one she trusts, they got someone else, and it bit them in the ass.

People are acting like the movie shooting down their ridiculous theories means it was targeting them specifically.

12/19/2017 5:48:38 PM

The whole movie was trolling. Making you think any number of things had a special significance but then taking it away.

Finn says he met Rose through Luck (Obiwan in ep4 says there's no such thing as luck). Then they just so happen to meet this other guy in the jail cell who can do exactly what they need him to. So it sets you up to think there is a significance to this meeting. That's not a crazed theory, it's a failed set-up/pay-off.


Another set up without a pay off: showing us Luke's X-Wing in the water. Instead of him lifting it out, like Yoda did in ESB, and then flying it into the final flight, he forgets about it and does everything through astral projection. Giving Leia the dice from the Falcon but oops, those are a projection as well. Po knowing that loading the transporters was a bad idea, and being pissy that he didn't know the whole plan, then he's suddenly ok with it and doesn't let anyone else know that Finn and Rose are trying something else. Chewbacca's guilt at killing and trying to eat a Porg, then later just smacks them around and has no remorse for his treatment of other living creatures. The kids helping Rose and Finn escape, and despite setting up that this is a planet where slave children are harshly beaten, we see them receive zero consequence.



[Edited on December 19, 2017 at 6:32 PM. Reason : -]

12/19/2017 6:26:43 PM

I generally agree with bdmazurs post.

I don't get why all the people who don't care about the series show up just to shit on the fans for being mad about this being a random good movie that isn't true to the series.

[Edited on December 19, 2017 at 7:31 PM. Reason : thats the point of a series and the point of a trilogy. continuity. we don't want marvel movies]

12/19/2017 7:30:14 PM

As a life long star wars afficianado, I loved this movie.

I have loved star wars since I was a wee boy. I use to read a lot of the expanded universe novels, (wraith squadron was my favorite), was all into the toys and shit, So star wars I have loved and cherished for some time. The prequels ruined the magic, and the Force Awakens was too formulaic. Rogue One was pretty good. But this movie brought the magic back. Finally.

12/19/2017 7:58:59 PM

Quote :

"Then they just so happen to meet this other guy in the jail cell who can do exactly what they need him to."

just like Bodhi in R1

12/19/2017 8:07:32 PM

i was hoping snoke would be rey's father.

12/19/2017 8:22:35 PM

I love Star Wars. Probably more than is healthy for a person of my age. I've got every Star Wars Incredible Cross Sections book they have put out, just because I'm a whore for detailed technical drawings of fake nonsense technology. Don't have The Last Jedi one yet but will get it soon.

Hell this is a photo of the PC i'm using right now. It's got Star Wars lego figures in it. https://tinyurl.com/ydb39sbs

And I loved this movie. It didn't do what I expected and I greatly appreciated that. I mean I did have some issues with it, which I mentioned in the OP, but overall it was fantastic.

I agree with people who say the Luke shown in this movie isn't the same Luke we see in the original trilogy.

But you know what? Luke has fucking changed. And it makes complete sense that he has. Luke's most important task, creating the new Jedi order, failed spectacularly and got everyone who believed in him killed.

But by the end of the movie he realizes that while the Jedi can't go back to what they were before, nor should they, the Jedi as an idea must go on. And so he helps make that happen.

[Edited on December 19, 2017 at 8:28 PM. Reason : ]

12/19/2017 8:28:24 PM

I’m ready to see some force ghost badassery after Obi-Wan alluded to it way back in ANH, and now we see Yoda can summon lightning. I really hope Luke gets to wreck shit, because I was really disappointed with his overall force wielding (cross-galaxy hologram notwithstanding)

12/19/2017 8:45:34 PM

Imagine how strong Rey will be with the infinity gauntlet. Shit'll be so cash.

12/19/2017 9:10:59 PM

Quote :

"But you know what? Luke has fucking changed."

Luke has already brought a family member back from the dark side. He knows it can be done. So when another family member is on a bad path, but not even full dark side yet, the fact that he even for a second considers killing him should bother you as someone who loves Star Wars so much.

One of many reasons why this movie functions fine as a stand-alone piece, but not as part of a series.

I love Star Wars as well, and wrote multiple papers about how the original series connects to the greatest religious mythology and folklore stories the world has ever known. But I loved the originals for the story, and this movie doesn't tell one, at least not one that connects to what came before it.

12/20/2017 4:43:27 AM

Break down each movie (ignoring the prequels which we all seem to agree we can do) and you will find an easy one line synopsis for the main hero's path and a one word theme that connects every plot point, character, and story element throughout the entire film:

Ep4
Protagonist dreams of adventure, discovers he has access to ancient power, sees father figure/mentor murdered
Theme: Ambition (desire to accomplish something great)

Ep5:
Protagonist trains, is given new tools and skills to take revenge, but there's a twist reveal
Theme: Adversity

Ep6: Protagonist, now a master of his skills, battles with his own anger and fear, while attempting to save his father from the same
Theme: Redemption

Ep7:
Repeat of Ep4 with new protagonist
Theme: Significance

Ep8
Protagonist kind of trains (the trainer is pissy and reluctant), protagonist is focused on finding her own place in the universe and not driven by any actual goal or achievement, only tries to redeem the antagonist because she wants his help (not to help him), and the big twist reveal is that there is no twist reveal? There's nothing special, nothing to gain, nothing to learn.
Theme: Failure.


Notice the difference between ambition (desire to accomplish something great) and significance (desire to be something great). Then between adversity and failure.

Ep5 had plenty of failure...Luke in the cave, Lando's betrayal, not saving Han in time, losing a hand. But the adversity comes from Luke and Han surviving out in the cold, Han's brilliance in alluding the star destroyers, Lando's redemption, Luke's acceptance of who his father is.

But Ep8 is just...failure. Finn and Rose's failure is only saved by external factors, not their own ability to survive. Rose takes away Finn's opportunity at redemption at the last second (because love?). Luke doesn't bother leaving the island he's been using to hide from his problems. Rey fails to turn Ben back to the good side, but the consequence is...she's exactly where she was before she failed, just minus Snoke which is a good thing for her. The story falls flat because it serves no purpose.

12/20/2017 5:00:21 AM

^this is a lot of words.

Episode 8 is a great start wars movie. Not just a stand alone movie. It brought the awe back to start wars. Reminded me of expanded universe novel, had different feel, made unexpected turns, had a new voice. Felt like the first time I saw a New Hope. I Loved it.

12/20/2017 6:32:10 AM

Whole lot of fucking stupid bad ideas in this thread from a bunch of motherfuckers who did not or could not pay attention to what was on the screen in front of them.

12/20/2017 6:43:29 AM

I think some stupid points are being brought up, but I also think people defending the movie are being willfully ignorant of the poor execution of themes and ideas that weren't all that interesting. Failure and learning from it? Cool, never seen that before. People who profit from war are worse than those who wage it? Fuckin revolutionary idea that's never been explored elsewhere. Meanwhile our villain has no real motivation other than "I'm sad and lonely and insecure and will prove my worth through displays of my own power and by killing the old." Sounds like his grandfather

Let the past die, indeed

12/20/2017 8:07:29 AM

A lot of this thread seems like nitpicking or poor comprehension.

Some of it is accurate, though. The Casino was awful in virtually every particular. Aesthetically it didn't remind me so much of the Prequels as it did every casino scene in every movie ever made. The "political commentary" felt forced. I appreciate the intent to add an element of moral ambiguity to the conflict, and thought Rogue One did so, but TLJ's approach was ham-fisted and out of place. But this segment's greatest sin is that it was uninteresting. I can put up with a lot of silly things in a Star Wars movie because they are fun. Watching Finn and Rose run around and get harassed over a parking violation does not qualify.

I liked DJ fine as a character, and he could have added something substantial; but overall, the thing that would most improve this movie for me would be removing the casino/codebreaking plot in its entirety.

(This veers towards the nitpicky side, but my fiancee and I both left scratching our heads about the whole premise behind that plot. "They tracked us through hyperspace! That's impossible! Unless, nope, it's actually both possible and so super easy that a plumber and a janitor figured it out in the span of thirty seconds." If you're going to drag us through "Ocean's BB-8," it should at least be predicated on something more substantial than that.)

---

Aside from that plot - which is not a minor part of the movie, I'll grant you - I really enjoyed TLJ. I have some concerns moving forward, because this film has set some things up that will be difficult to handle well, but I'm not going to judge those outcomes until they exist. The biggest one, to my mind, is Supreme Leader Ren (because Supreme Leader Kylo sounds idiotic). Here we have a character with no demonstrated leadership skills. He established his command by choking one guy. His first act as Supreme Leader was to supremely fuck up what should have been a slam dunk on Crait and publicly humiliate himself in the process. I'm curious to see how they show him retaining and exercising galactic dictatorship after this inauspicious beginning. But at the same time, I'm happy to finally see the process of apprentice overthrowing master. We heard about it with Sidious; we were teased with the prospect with Vader; now we actually get to see it. Good.

So I'm apprehensive, but pleased. Some of the complaints here don't resonate with me at all. Take, for example, Wraith, a Wolfwebber I respect but who I think is being awfully tight-assed here:

Quote :

"The humor seemed completely out of place."

It was more on the nose than it usually was in the original trilogy, but why should that be a problem? I laughed at the bits. So did the rest of the theater. Mission accomplished. (I do agree that the initial Poe/Hux banter was oddly telephone-centric)

Quote :

"Finn and Rose had no chemistry."

Romantic chemistry has never been a Star Wars strong suit, and it's also not what I (or any other Star Wars fan) show up looking for. I can appreciate their effort to invert the Han/Luke/Leia love triangle from the original, all the more so since three different ethnicities rules out incest kisses this time around.

Quote :

"How did the code breaker know the Resistance's plan to sneak onto the planet when he sold them out?"

I didn't get the impression that he knew the whole plan, he just provided code information that would be militarily useful.

Quote :

"Why didn't the Vice-Admiral just tell Poe her plan?"

Why would she subvert the entire chain of command to tell her plan to a pilot she's never met before? Do you think if Lieutenant Dipshit had gone up to General Eisenhower in May 1944 to ask, "Say, what's up with all these fake tanks?" that Ike would be like "LOL we're invading Normandy thanks for asking?"

Quote :

"Despite that, he saw the darkness in Kylo Ren and he came within an inch of killing him"

This makes sense to me. When Luke and Vader go before the Emperor, Luke doesn't really have any other cards to play. He doesn't have anything. Killing his dad gives the Emperor what he wants. If he does it, he's either gonna get killed or get turned. Also, at that point he doesn't have a lot to lose. The Rebellion looks pretty fucked at that point. Luke twenty years later has more options, and a peaceful galactic Republic to defend. And finally, it was a momentary impulse felt immediately after he saw all the dark shit in Ben's mind. First reactions are liable to be extreme.

---

Already a long post, so just quickly, these are things I explicitly liked:

-Pretty much all of the combat.
-Snoke, and his demise
-Supreme Leader Ren
-Everything on the island
-DJ (pity we had to deal with Space Casino Royale to get him)
-Hyperspace suicide
-The theme of overturning the old ways

12/20/2017 8:34:10 AM

i too enjoyed this movie, and he summarized everything nicely ^

I have read and own nearly every EU book and have read about half of the newer books. I liked the humor (especially when it doesn't require comic relief primarily from a droid). I liked how this movie explored the characters and their motivations, and added depth (which I felt was lacking in TFA). I look forward to seeing this movie again.



[Edited on December 20, 2017 at 9:10 AM. Reason : ]

12/20/2017 9:08:49 AM

Quote :

"Everything on the island"

Hell yeah the milking scene was the best

12/20/2017 10:30:04 AM

^^^ Agree as well. Thought this summed up things wells too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOG3Rze8UVU

12/20/2017 10:43:27 AM

I mean, milking the space walrus* is not something I would have included if I were in charge, but it didn't ruin the whole fucking movie.

*This is now how I'm going to refer to masturbating.

12/20/2017 8:35:59 PM

Talk about the Chewbacca food scene. I thought it was long drawn out and out of character for someone who has seen as much as he has.

12/20/2017 8:52:32 PM