Amare has been on the block because his contract is running out and Phoenix wants to get as much as they can for him. He's probably not staying because he'll get a max contract or close somewhere else. It has nothing to do with his talent.

4/21/2010 12:50:37 AM

actually he's not good on defense and he's not a particularly good rebounder.

He is a productive player for sure, just not quite as productive as Nene.

Look how much better Denver got when Nene came back from his multiple season absenc

4/21/2010 1:23:03 AM

And for the record you are wrong about the best players getting paid the most. That's just a ridiculous notion that even the most casual NBA fan can refute.

I know that academics sail over a lot of people's heads on this board, but for those who are able to understand research here's some good information.

Quote :

" ¦Payroll does not explain much of wins in the NBA, MLB, or NFL. Specifically, payroll only explains 12% of the variation in wins in the NBA. In baseball explanatory power is 18% while in the NFL it is below 5%. ¦We think the low explanatory power of payroll in baseball and football can at least partially be explained by the relative inconsistency of performance in these sports. As we note in our book, across time in baseball and football we see fairly wide variations in player productivity. After all, who expected the Detroit Tigers to be so good this year? ¦Relative to these sports, though, performance in the NBA is more consistent. So why is payroll still unable to explain much of wins? ¦We think the answer lies in how players are evaluated in the NBA. For more than two decades economists have looked at the link between player salary and various performance statistics. Scoring totals are the only player statistic that consistently explains player pay. Shooting efficiency, rebounds, steals, and turnovers do not consistently offer much explanatory power. We updated these studies in our book. Our story, though, was essentially the same. Scoring totals are the one statistic that matters most in determining player pay. ¦How much players are paid is not the only decision economists have examined. Ha Hoang and Dan Rascher published a study in Industrial Relations in 1999. The Hoang and Rascher study looked at the factors that caused a player to be cut from an NBA roster. The only player statistic these researchers found to matter was scoring. All other player statistics did not matter. ¦We have looked at the coaches voting for the All-Rookie team and the factors that impact where a college player is drafted. What matters most? Again, scoring matters more than factors associated with getting possession of the ball (i.e. rebounds, turnovers, and steals). ¦Wins in the NBA, though, are not just about scoring. Possession factors have a large impact on the outcomes we observe in the NBA. When you look at all the statistics the NBA tracks you find that with these you can explain 95% of the variation in wins. And when you look at all these statistics you find that you can create a very accurate estimate of the wins each player produces. From all this what do we conclude? Conventional wisdom in basketball is incorrect. Players who only score are not as valuable as people think. Players who do not score much — like Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman – have a bigger impact on team wins than people seem to think. Does this fit what many people believe about the NBA? No, but as academic research often indicates, what people believe does not always match what the data says. "

Quote :

"Given these results, is it really that surprising to learn that when one does estimate how many wins a player produces the results would contradict what is commonly believed? The common belief, which must be close to what the NBA believes, leads to payrolls that only explain 12% of wins. Or in other words, payrolls cannot explain 88% of team wins. So is everyone still sure that their favorite scorer is contributing that much to team wins?"

[Edited on April 21, 2010 at 2:25 AM. Reason : a]

4/21/2010 2:19:39 AM

Payroll in the NBA does seem to have quite a correlation to winning the title though. I don't even remember the last team to win the title that didn't also pay the luxury tax that season

4/21/2010 3:07:06 AM

Again, payroll explains only 12% of win variation in the NBA.


Perhaps, the teams winning the titles (Spurs) are correctly evaluating talent (Duncan, Ginobili)

4/21/2010 3:13:59 AM

Just saying that the teams have won titles in years with luxury taxes imposed, have all paid the luxury tax, w/o exception. Take that for whatever it's worth

4/21/2010 3:16:05 AM

I'm not arguing tht you need talent to win and that talent can be expensive.

I am obviously arguing that simply looking at what a player makes is not a good predictor of how many wins he will help generate.

I think everyone can agree on that even without the data that overwhelmingly supports that statement.

4/21/2010 3:20:09 AM

Quote :

"I am obviously arguing that simply looking at what a player makes is not a good predictor of how many wins he will help generate."

Can't argue that, especially when you see players like T-Mac, J O'Neal, Redd, & Kirilenko in the top 11 of player salaries this past season

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

[Edited on April 21, 2010 at 3:25 AM. Reason : citing my sources]

4/21/2010 3:23:57 AM

Quote :

"Here's my question for you: Is Nene a better basketball player than either Carmelo or Billups? Is Nene a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant?"

4/21/2010 3:50:25 AM

what happened to the bobcats thread?

4/21/2010 5:04:12 AM

Quote :

"ORLANDO, Fla. -- Stephen Jackson and I are discussing author Malcolm Gladwell. Specifically, the impact that one of Gladwell's books had on his life. "'The Tipping Point' helped me kind of look at things before I make decisions," Jackson says. "It was a different book for me. I wasn't a book reader. It was more of a book that gave me advice on how to handle different situations." Different situations -- Jackson has had a few of those in his career. And, given the subtitle of "The Tipping Point" ("How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference"), it isn't surprising that he can relate to Gladwell's thinking about ways in which change happens in society. Jackson has been making a big difference for the Bobcats, who play Game 2 in their first-round playoff series against the Orlando Magic on Wednesday night. When he was with Golden State, Jackson and then-teammates Matt Barnes and Baron Davis met Gladwell on a road trip to Chicago. Coincidentally, they were all in the middle of "The Tipping Point" -- they were reading it for the team book club, started by Davis -- when Davis spotted Gladwell sitting in their hotel restaurant. [+] EnlargeStephen Jackson Fernando Medina/Getty ImagesStephen Jackson has a good grip on his career, and on the Bobcats right now. "He kind of reminds of that guy on that Dos Equis commercial," Jackson said, referring to the beer ads featuring "the most interesting man in the world." Perception and reality often live in different neighborhoods in sports. And the perception is that Jackson is hardly the person who would find meaning in a Malcolm Gladwell book, much less describe meeting Gladwell as "special" -- as he did during our conversation. You have to be careful when you refer to an athlete as "misunderstood," because it's often just a generous way of excusing the fact he or she is really a nincompoop. But when it comes to Jackson, "misunderstood" fits. The perception is that he's a thuggish problem child, mostly based on a couple of those "different situations" from earlier in his career. But that perception is so off-base that it makes you wonder if the sports world should get a Seeing Eye dog. Jackson is a lot of things, and most of them should be admired. He's a winner. He's a leader. He plays hurt. (Case in point: He suffered a bone bruise in his left knee in Game 1 on Sunday but is expected to start Wednesday.) He practices hard. He usually guards the best player on the opposing team. He shuns being treated like a superstar. He enjoys playing like a guy who was cut by 16 NBA teams and had to play in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela before the Nets gave him a real opportunity. He's emotional and has a terrible habit of jawing with the refs. But his coach, Larry Brown, would rather he cared too much about a play than take one off. Yet Jackson receives almost no credit for any of those things, or for the career he's made from almost nothing, or for the man he's become after he made some high-profile mistakes. It's mind-boggling that he remains so underappreciated in a league that contains so many overrated, overpaid, self-centered players. Trading for Jackson in November was just as important for Charlotte as Michael Jordan purchasing the franchise. The Bobcats are appearing in the playoffs for the first time in franchise history -- which Jackson boldly proclaimed they would do the very first day he wore a Charlotte uniform. And all Jackson has done since being traded from Golden State is make himself look like a genius. The Bobcats entered the playoffs with 16 wins in their last 23 games, with Jackson averaging 21 points per game. Charlotte suddenly has gone from a basement-dweller to the team nobody wants to play. Just ask the Cleveland Cavaliers, who lost to the Bobcats three times this season. [+] EnlargeStephen Jackson Kent Smith/Getty ImagesWhat you might not know about Jackson: His off-the-court contributions, including his help with NBA Green Week at Little Sugar Creek Community Garden in Charlotte earlier this month. Although Charlotte lost the first game in the best-of-seven Orlando series, the expectation is that the Magic, the reigning Eastern Conference champions, will have their hands full, largely because of the identity and edge Jackson has brought to the Bobcats. "It's not too many guys who play the game the way I play it," Jackson says. "I play the game with a chip on my shoulder. I play the game with a lot of passion. I play with more energy than a lot of guys. I play harder than a lot of guys. I want to win every night. I don't want to lose one game. I don't want to go home ever after a game and say that I didn't give my all for my teammates. Sometimes, it might lead to me blurting out some things I shouldn't say and getting a technical foul, but it's all in competing for the game." So why isn't anyone heaping superlatives on him? Why, when there is a discussion about the best and most competitive players in the NBA, does Stephen Jackson's name almost never surface? And, since we're supposedly a culture that loves comebacks, why does it seem like no one is at all interested in his? The lack of credit never concerned Jackson before, but it does now. He could always accept being stereotyped as a disreputable malcontent because the people who really know him, like his former teammate Tim Duncan -- a good guy by anyone's definition, and a consummate professional -- referred to him as the "ultimate teammate." But now, Jackson openly admits he cares about how people perceive him. It irritates and baffles him that two mistakes -- the November 2004 Palace brawl with the Pistons when he was with Indiana, and a 2006 gun incident at a strip club which caused Jackson to be suspended for a combined 37 games and facilitated a trade from the Pacers to Golden State -- have stained his reputation like red wine on a cream-colored suit. His messy departure from the Warriors only reinforced Jackson's reputation as bad fruit. The NBA fined him $25,000 last September for publicly demanding a trade. (Somehow, the powers-that-be must have lost their hearing during Kobe Bryant's similar summer-long "trade me" campaign.) "For a long time, I didn't care because my family, my kids, my wife, the people I work with know me as a person," Jackson says. "But it's gotten to the point where it's kind of bothering me, because people don't look at me as being a great basketball player. They look at the mistakes I made five, six years ago. I don't think that's fair because a lot of people make mistakes and people aren't holding them over their heads. People have moved on and I have moved on. I think I made great accomplishments after I made those mistakes." [+] EnlargeStephen Jackson AP Photo/Wilfredo LeeThe Magic are favored, but Jackson's leadership won't make this first-round series easy for them. He has done some impressive work outside of basketball since those two incidents, but the stains linger. He started the Stephen Jackson Academy in his hometown of Port Arthur, Texas, a school for kindergarten through the sixth grade. In 2008, he launched another charitable giving endeavor, the Jack 1 Foundation, which carries his nickname. When he was with Golden State, he was one of the team's leaders in donating his time to visit schools and help whatever community endeavors the Warriors supported. Gerald Wallace, who became the Bobcats' first NBA All-Star this season, didn't know what to think of Jackson at first. Would he be a volatile guy who undermined the team's success? Or would he be the missing piece the Bobcats needed? Six months later, Wallace is dumbfounded as to why he ever worried. "If you listen to you guys [the media] all the time, you think he's like, the devil," Wallace says. "We get him here and he's totally opposite. He's friendly. He's always laughing and he's always joking. It's different on the court with every player. He's passionate. He loves to play. He loves to win. But that's every player on the court. I think you guys just gave him a bad rep like he's a bad teammate and all this. When he got here, it was kind of a concern. But he's been a great teammate. No problems." The media crucified Jackson for fighting fans at the Palace, and rightly so. It was a regrettable incident. But a number of players noticed that Jackson risked his own personal safety that night to defend teammates who were being beaten by fans in the ugly brawl. There isn't a player in the NBA who doesn't want a guy like that on his team. Jackson's brother was beaten to death after being jumped by a group of people. So while Stephen knows it was wrong to go after the fans in Detroit, he also knows he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if he hadn't followed Ron Artest into the melee. "I honestly regret punching that guy," Jackson says. "But I don't regret going in the stands behind Ron, because I was going to help my teammate. If you consider somebody being your brother and you're with them six months out of the year -- more than you're with your own family -- you're going to grow some type of bond where 'I'm going to be there for you' and we're considered brothers." The only danger Jackson poses now is on the court, where he's averaged at least 20 points per game in the last three seasons. That includes the 2006-07 season, when he helped Golden State upset the No. 1-seeded Dallas Mavericks in the first round of the playoffs. In Game 6 of that series, he hit 7-of-8 3-pointers to lead the Warriors with 33 points and close out the Mavs. The Bobcats hope he has some of that magic left. But even if Charlotte doesn't pull off the upset over Orlando, Jackson has rewritten his legacy. It's too bad most people haven't taken the time to read it. The tipping point in their appreciation of his talent and character should have been reached by now."

4/21/2010 2:22:26 PM

^good read, I didn't care for Jackson until he came to Charlotte, mostly because I hadn't seen him play much. But I like his toughness and resolve to win.

Here's to a Game 2 win! Tipoff in 3 hours!

[Edited on April 21, 2010 at 3:58 PM. Reason : .]

4/21/2010 3:58:29 PM

lookin like dogshit right now

4/21/2010 7:24:39 PM

SUCKING it up right now.

they look like Dennis horner is on their team...turnovers galore.

4/21/2010 7:24:41 PM

GET IT? THREE "CAT" NIGHT!

4/21/2010 7:33:38 PM

holy shit wallace can get up. that's the second nasty block he's had tonight

4/21/2010 7:34:15 PM

is it really pronounced "augusteen?" or is that just what everyone says because it's easier to say than "augusten"

4/21/2010 8:14:06 PM

this team is retarded

4/21/2010 8:42:52 PM

do nba players EVER agree with calls on them?

4/21/2010 8:45:50 PM

Here's to another garbage time comeback by the Bobcats.

4/21/2010 9:31:47 PM

game is over

4/21/2010 9:35:34 PM

PURE MOTHAFUCKIN MAGIC

4/21/2010 9:37:32 PM

pppbbbbbbbttttttthhhhhhhhhhhh

4/21/2010 9:53:24 PM

fuckin refs, howard elbows the shit out of our bigs' faces every time he touches the ball

4/21/2010 10:10:56 PM

That was a frustrating game to watch last night.

We're just outclassed. Orlando hasn't brought out their A game yet, and they've still handled us twice. Sometimes teams just have better players and there isn't shit you can do about it.

4/22/2010 11:02:39 AM

Now that's how this shit go!
And I know you don't like me spittin in your motherfuckin face
But ain't a motherfuckin thing, you can do, about it neither
Punk motherfucker!

4/22/2010 11:05:29 AM

at the beginning of the season, the Magic looked like the deepest team in the league, on paper at least.... Now we're seeing that play out. Unfortunately, it's at the Bobcats' expense.

Hopefully LB can get this team turned around and playing some of that defense we've been seeing all year. We need to double the shit outta Howard everytime he touches the ball.

4/22/2010 12:17:21 PM

Quote :

"We need to double the shit outta Howard everytime he touches the ball."

Isn't that what fucked them over in game 1?

4/22/2010 1:39:45 PM

What we really need is for the refs to actually call fouls on Howard every time he elbows one of our big men in the face, under the guise of "getting better position"...as if you are going to get better offensive low post position by pinning one of your arms behind your back...Howard should've fouled out Game 1 in the 3rd quarter and should've fouled out last night early in the 4th, if not in the 3rd quarter

But I realize we don't have a chance in hell of getting any of those calls, because the league wants Orlando in the Eastern finals

Also, I don't think either Howard or Carter has ever committed a foul in their entire life

4/22/2010 2:06:42 PM

The league doesn't give a fuck about Orlando

They want Cleveland in the Finals, so you'd think they'd want Orlando to lose so they'd have an easier path

Fact is, the Magic are just a much better team than us

4/22/2010 2:09:09 PM

The league doesn't give a fuck about Orlando? Yeah, I'm sure their dream Eastern Finals matchup is Cleveland versus Toronto

I'm not arguing that they want Cleveland in the NBA Finals

But they obviously want a re-match of last year's Eastern finals

4/22/2010 2:10:45 PM

Orlando doesn't give any more ratings than Toronto, Charlotte, Indiana, etc.

Its Cleveland, its Boston, than its everyone else

Only playmakers draw viewers, not centers

Same reason no one likes the Spurs

4/22/2010 2:13:35 PM

Orlando gives 10x more ratings than Charlotte or Indiana or Toronto

Duncan was boring because he shot 16' bank shots...Howard throws down big gorilla dunks...apples and oranges

And by your logic, Miami would give bigger ratings than Boston, as Wade is clearly a better and more exciting playmaker than Pierce or Allen, or anybody else in the East aside from LBJ

And I swear half the reason people didn't want to see the Spurs in the finals is because they were ALWAYS there

4/22/2010 2:55:51 PM

Took you 42 minutes to come up with that retort (No man, I was in a meeting!)

Boston is bigger than Miami and Orlando because of the historical nature and national following of the team

Just like the Lakers are a big deal even when they suck

Remember how let down people were when Orlando beat Cleveland and people didn't get to see Kobe vs Lebron?

No one nuts their pants over Howard vs Gasol

and yes, Stern would rather have Miami than Orlando any day of the week

4/22/2010 3:05:18 PM

I was eating lunch you cocksucker

Don't act like Howard is the walking image of boring fundamentals that Duncan is

Howard is much more exciting to watch than Duncan

And yeah Boston has the history, but they won't make it to the Eastern Finals so its irrelevant

The NBA not only wants Cleveland (Lebron) in the Finals, but they want him to do what Jordan eventually had to do (beat Detroit) and beat Orlando to get there

4/22/2010 3:06:48 PM

Hopefully it was crow

4/22/2010 3:08:03 PM

just keep telling yourself the Orlando Magic doesn't get any bigger ratings than the current Indiana Pacers or Charlotte Bobcats

one day it will become true

4/22/2010 3:12:12 PM

I think this picture nicely sums up Felton's play in the first 2 games

4/23/2010 5:33:06 PM

i wish rallydurham was the general manager of another team, then maybe we could trade him away for something

4/23/2010 5:37:04 PM

Felton this year has been far better than the starting PG for Orlando and LA.

If we were to trade Felton to one of those teams in exchange for their starting PG they would immediately become huge favorites to win the title.


(Jameer was better prior to this season, but he fell off big time probably b/c of last year's injury)





[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 6:52 PM. Reason : clarify]

4/23/2010 6:45:28 PM

you can't be serious about the nelson thing.

4/23/2010 6:54:01 PM

^all of Nelson's stats dipped this year. Oh wait! He INCREASED his turnovers.

do your research

4/23/2010 7:57:00 PM

Nelson has shown up in the playoffs unlike Felton

You know, when it actually matters

4/23/2010 8:10:49 PM

^yeah, i have a feeling someone just started watching nelson in the playoffs

4/23/2010 8:19:25 PM

I've been watching him since St. Joe's, but the regular season and the playoffs are two totally different animals

Assuming you make the playoffs, what you do in the regular season becomes irrelevant

Nelson has outplayed Felton in 2 playoff games so far, and thats all that matters

4/23/2010 8:25:15 PM

my sister went to St. Joe's, i've always pulled for Nelson and his ridiculously long shorts

I expected Felton to elevate his game for the playoffs but it looks like just the opposite, i wonder what happens to him this offseason

4/23/2010 8:29:39 PM

the whole team better show up tomorrow because if we go down 3-0 we're completely fucked

4/23/2010 8:30:41 PM

the only thing i'm banking on is how well we play at home

if we don't throw passes of people's feet we have a better shot than at ORL

4/23/2010 8:32:42 PM

Orlando is 2 point favorites today, seems like our best chance to steal a win and it will make Game 4 much more interesting for me if its not 3-0 already...

4/24/2010 11:26:11 AM

Can't wait to watch the game this afternoon. We need a lot to go right to get the win, but I'm hoping the Charlotte crowd is behind them and we can pull this one out of our ass somehow.

It's going to be interesting to see how they officiate Howard and his elbow's on the road. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get 1-2 offensive fouls in the 1st half and make him play in foul trouble most of the game. He got away with too much in Orlando.

4/24/2010 11:35:59 AM