Haha I remember I was playing one time back at Foxwoods, and this one guy who had been playing really tight raised to like $10. I called with A2 suited, flop comes something like 489 rainbow, so obviously I whiffed on the flop big time. So naturally, playing against someone really tight I figured I should bet, so I threw out a pot sized bet. He thinks about it for a bit and calls, and the turn comes a J, so no help. Once again I bet the pot and once again he goes in the tank and finally calls. So now I'm in a $180 pot that I shouldn't be in and I figure I am way behind. The river is a deuce, giving me bottom pair, top kicker (whoop dee doo). At this point I am positive I am beat but I really thought the guy was weak so I once again took a huge stab and bet $200. The guy thinks about it forever and finally calls. Of course I figuredI was beat and I just about threw my cards in the muck when he said "Well if you have a pair you have me beat." As it turns out he was playing AK. We discussed the hand afterwards and he said he really thought I was just trying to buy the pot. It's amazing how right he was but how lucky I got.

2/15/2008 10:41:40 PM

I'd check call the river. You have to assume the guy would reraise with an over pair in that scenario.

2/16/2008 12:02:00 AM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/index.html?ie=UTF8&sellerID=AYSY5SFMYI65L

buy my books, kthnx

2/16/2008 1:09:01 PM

Quote :

"and this one guy who had been playing really tight raised to like $10. I called with A2 suited, flop comes something like 489 rainbow, so obviously I whiffed on the flop big time. So naturally, playing against someone really tight I figured I should bet, so I threw out a pot sized bet."

I believe your thinking on this hand is a bit flawed. If a tight player puts in a raise preflop I'm not going to be betting out on a flop where I myself have no pair and no draw. If I so happened to put still put out a flop bet and get called, there is NO way I am firing again on the turn (unless I pick up a piece of the board) and I would check fold.

2/17/2008 7:42:43 AM

^ What I got out of that statement was his thinking that a tight player would raise preflop with only a premium hand, meaning that when a low flop comes out like that, you can usually push them off of two overcards if you bet enough

Before I read the results I put him on AQ+, but not a pair with the difficulty he had calling each bet

However, if Feeble had bet a pot sized bet on the flop, and we saw either an instacall or raise, then you obviously need to stop firing at this one

2/17/2008 5:11:05 PM

Had an interesting hand a moment ago:



POKERSTARS GAME #15355977547: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/02/17 - 17:28:04 (ET)
Table 'Altaj II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Patch.com ($228.40 in chips)
Seat 2: mambreno ($251.60 in chips)
Seat 3: sihuynh ($420.30 in chips)
Seat 4: scarface315 ($293.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Nickdavo22 ($331.70 in chips)
Seat 6: noidroid ($219 in chips)
noidroid: posts small blind $1
Patch.com: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to noidroid [Ad As]
mambreno: folds
sihuynh: folds
scarface315: folds
Nickdavo22: calls $2
noidroid: raises $10 to $12
Patch.com: folds
Nickdavo22: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [Kc 9s Jd]
noidroid: bets $18
Nickdavo22: raises $18 to $36
noidroid: calls $18
*** TURN *** [Kc 9s Jd] [2s]
noidroid: checks
Nickdavo22: bets $20
noidroid: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [Kc 9s Jd 2s] [2d]
noidroid: bets $151 and is all-in
Nickdavo22: calls $151
*** SHOW DOWN ***
noidroid: shows [Ad As] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
Nickdavo22: mucks hand
noidroid collected $437 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $440 | Rake $3
Board [Kc 9s Jd 2s 2d]
Seat 1: Patch.com (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: mambreno folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: sihuynh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: scarface315 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Nickdavo22 (button) mucked [Qh Ah]
Seat 6: noidroid (small blind) showed [Ad As] and won ($437) with two pair, Aces and Deuces




Weird line by me, I know. The minraise on that flop was a cause for concern, I called with the intent of jamming a safe turn. I got what I wanted but then he bet really really small and I was concerned again, I'm unsure where I'm at but call anyway with no set plan for the river. I had the villain pegged as a donk, but wasn't sure to what extent. The river was perfect, I had conterfitted a somewhat likely flopped 2 pair. My bet sizing options were awkward for a bet/fold so I just shoved under the assumption that he likely had total air(that wasnt calling a small river bet) or a counterfitted 2 pait to cal with. I realized my line prolly seemed odd to him, so a possible hero call was another reason for shoving for more than the pot.

He snap called the river and I was sure I had run into a boat, then he showed A high because he was more of a donk than I had ever fathomed... lol

2/17/2008 5:55:56 PM

I fail...

Full Tilt Poker Game #5296761113: The Sunday Mulligan (39348691), Table 99 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:31:40 ET - 2008/02/17
Seat 1: david0603 (4,320)
Seat 2: mossified84 (3,030)
Seat 3: OnlyPlayRagz (625)
Seat 4: StakkinChiPs (3,660)
Seat 5: FastEddie267 (2,355)
Seat 6: baller11782 (3,922)
Seat 7: santog (2,773)
Seat 8: satara1 (6,360)
Seat 9: ChipSteela (2,690)
StakkinChiPs posts the small blind of 20
FastEddie267 posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to david0603 [Jd Jh]
baller11782 raises to 3,922, and is all in
santog folds
satara1 has 15 seconds left to act
satara1 folds
ChipSteela folds
david0603 has 15 seconds left to act
david0603 has requested TIME
david0603 raises to 4,320, and is all in
mossified84 has 15 seconds left to act
mossified84 is sitting out
mossified84 has timed out
mossified84 folds
OnlyPlayRagz folds
StakkinChiPs folds
FastEddie267 folds
david0603 shows [Jd Jh]
baller11782 shows [Ac As]
Uncalled bet of 398 returned to david0603
*** FLOP *** [2h Ts Kc]
david0603: nice
*** TURN *** [2h Ts Kc] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [2h Ts Kc 5d] [7d]
david0603 shows a pair of Jacks
baller11782 shows a pair of Aces
baller11782 wins the pot (7,904) with a pair of Aces

2/17/2008 7:34:34 PM

2/17/2008 7:53:48 PM

nice work there david

[Edited on February 17, 2008 at 7:57 PM. Reason : e]

2/17/2008 7:57:43 PM

I'm crawling back up...

Full Tilt Poker Game #5297061646: The Sunday Mulligan (39348691), Table 99 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:55:10 ET - 2008/02/17
Seat 1: david0603 (1,584)
Seat 2: mossified84 (2,210)
Seat 3: OnlyPlayRagz (1,105)
Seat 4: StakkinChiPs (6,135)
Seat 5: scam8 (9,503)
Seat 6: baller11782 (8,404)
Seat 7: Davidp18 (2,140)
Seat 8: satara1 (4,190)
Seat 9: ChipSteela (3,259)
scam8 posts the small blind of 30
baller11782 posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to david0603 [Qc Qh]
Davidp18 folds
satara1 folds
ChipSteela folds
david0603 has 15 seconds left to act
ChipSteela has been disconnected
david0603 raises to 180
mossified84 has 15 seconds left to act
mossified84 folds
OnlyPlayRagz folds
StakkinChiPs folds
scam8 folds
baller11782 has 15 seconds left to act
baller11782 raises to 676
david0603 raises to 1,584, and is all in
baller11782 calls 908
david0603 shows [Qc Qh]
baller11782 shows [Ah Js]
ChipSteela has reconnected
*** FLOP *** [3d 6h 9s]
*** TURN *** [3d 6h 9s] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [3d 6h 9s 7d] [5c]
david0603 shows a pair of Queens
baller11782 shows Ace Jack high
david0603 wins the pot (3,198) with a pair of Queens

2/17/2008 7:57:45 PM

I love fucking with the short stack. We were 2 from the bubble...

Vulcan 1500: ur nice
Dealer: Vulcan 1500, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act
Dealer: Regular time for player Vulcan 1500 has expired, TIME BANK has been activated
david0603: oh no, on the bubble
david0603: whatever shall we do...
david0603: soooo close to the money
david0603: can you taste it vulcan?
Vulcan 1500: im not calling
david0603: you're stalling?
Dealer: Vulcan 1500, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act
Vulcan 1500: is that what im doing
david0603: you tell me
Dealer: Vulcan 1500 has timed out - hand is folded

[Edited on February 17, 2008 at 10:09 PM. Reason : forgot to mention I just put him all in]

2/17/2008 10:09:30 PM

damn, so ive sold 5 books at an avg. price ~$13 so far.

not bad for being up for 2 days.

2/17/2008 10:12:34 PM

dude i hate when the big stacks fuck with me when im on the bubble

Vulcan 1500: ur nice
Dealer: Vulcan 1500, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act
Dealer: Regular time for player Vulcan 1500 has expired, TIME BANK has been activated
david0603: oh no, on the bubble
david0603: whatever shall we do...
david0603: soooo close to the money
david0603: can you taste it vulcan?
Vulcan 1500: im not calling
david0603: you're stalling?
Dealer: Vulcan 1500, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act
Vulcan 1500: is that what im doing
david0603: you tell me
Dealer: Vulcan 1500 has timed out - hand is folded


wat

[Edited on February 17, 2008 at 10:19 PM. Reason : .]

2/17/2008 10:19:34 PM

lol

2/18/2008 8:51:13 AM

Quote :

"I believe your thinking on this hand is a bit flawed. If a tight player puts in a raise preflop I'm not going to be betting out on a flop where I myself have no pair and no draw. If I so happened to put still put out a flop bet and get called, there is NO way I am firing again on the turn (unless I pick up a piece of the board) and I would check fold."

See I fundamentally disagree here. Any book I have ever read, and from experience I have learned that a typical supertight player will fold if his hand has not improved.

Case in point, I remember when Turner and I went to Atlantic City together for our very first time ever in AC. We had been playing together for a few months at local tournaments and had done really well, so we figured we're ready for the "big time". Well, as it turned out the people we had been playing with were really really bad and we were definitely not ready for the big time yet. I think we both ended up dropping a few hundred on the weekend, plus a ridiculously expensive hole-in-the-wall motel room across from.... I don't even remember the casino.

Well to get to my point, I acually made about $75 my first night there (I only played an hour or two cause it was really late) and then the next day it started to unravel. I didn't make the money in a fairly big tournament, and then I tried limit at a $4/$8 table for the first time ever. Bad move Jim. I lost like $150 there real quick. So finally I sat down at a no-limit table and vowd to only play premium hands. I watched the table for about half an hour and saw "crazy play". I told myself I was only going to play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and maybe limp in with pocket pairs. Well, this kind of worked for a little while. I won a few small pots because nobody would play with me. I tripled up with KK against two guys with A-rag when I had a relatively small stack and they both called my preflop all-ins.

Then came a hand I will never forget. A dude raises under the gun to like $25. The guy was obviously on tilt and was a very bad player, but I was playing tight so it didn't matter. Anyway, he gets one instacall and I look down at QQ. I just call. Looking back, the super obvious play was a massive reraise, but I was honestly really worried about what they each had. Well the flop is 952 rainbow and the initial raiser pushed all-in for like $300. Initial caller instacalls again, so I am like wtf. I only have about $150 left in front of me and I don't want to lose anymore, so me being super tight decides after a while to fold the hand. I show the table and they are obviously amazed by my "stupid" play, which it was.

Well, long story short, the initial raiser had 95 offsuit and had hit 2 pair. The caller had JJ. So the hand should have played out, the douchebag raises, girl instacalls with JJ, I reraise or perhaps push with QQ, douchebag folds, JJ calls, and I win a $400 pot. But instead I am afraid of AA or KK the whole way, and end up -$25 instead.

So the moral of the story here is, a tight player can be pushed off any hand. Overcards that do not hit for sure. Big pairs... perhaps, if the pot size is right and you represent a set. The nuts... well most likely not. If you guys ever remember playing with Nitro that was his thing, bluffing into the nuts. Man I miss Nitro.

2/18/2008 11:50:20 AM

Agreed ^

2/18/2008 12:41:25 PM

^^ I agree. Often times I do the same thing when I'm playing super tight. I convince myself that everyone else usually has a better hand then me and when a situation like that comes up I fold when I'm ahead. I've had so many hands online where I'll have a high pocket pair and the flop comes like 3 9 10, two people push and I fold, only to see two Ax's with not even a pair each.

2/18/2008 1:44:48 PM

my point is that I believe it to be -EV to be double barreling a tight player who has put in a pfr when you have no pair, no draw. yes, you may be able to bluff him off sometimes, but I say -EV longrun.

2/18/2008 2:55:44 PM

Donking into the raiser is counterintuitive, and will only show an immediate profit against weak tight players. Any thinking tight aggressive player will read you for weakness and react appropriately.

2/18/2008 2:56:48 PM

Standard pre-flop..or who likes call-push nice flop?

Just a note...initial raiser has been loose AGG and has shown down cards w/ odd preflop lines (K7s from EP raising w/ > 15BB...etc...)

Seat 1: aceofpairs (1420 in chips)
Seat 2: redeyed003 (3852 in chips)
Seat 3: queen_v1 (9090 in chips)
Seat 4: drumraider80 (5540 in chips)
Seat 5: diezelpag (1715 in chips)
Seat 6: slowcheetah1 (7540 in chips)
Seat 7: AndyDinnin86 (4115 in chips)
Seat 8: c_dead_money (1390 in chips)
Seat 9: Jody723 (4460 in chips)
aceofpairs: posts the ante 25
redeyed003: posts the ante 25
queen_v1: posts the ante 25
drumraider80: posts the ante 25
diezelpag: posts the ante 25
slowcheetah1: posts the ante 25
AndyDinnin86: posts the ante 25
c_dead_money: posts the ante 25
Jody723: posts the ante 25
AndyDinnin86: posts small blind 200
c_dead_money: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to slowcheetah1 [Ah Ks]
Jody723: raises 800 to 1200
aceofpairs: calls 1200
redeyed003: folds
queen_v1: folds
drumraider80: folds
diezelpag: folds
slowcheetah1: raises 6315 to 7515 and is all-in
AndyDinnin86: folds
c_dead_money: folds
Jody723: calls 3235 and is all-in
aceofpairs: calls 195 and is all-in

2/18/2008 6:11:27 PM

How you gonna stop-n-go from the button? And AK is not the hand to do it with, especially against two people.

nm, I misinterpreted "call/shove nice flop".


Either way, shove is correct.





[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 6:24 PM. Reason : reading comprehension]

2/18/2008 6:20:17 PM

In the same spot with the following hands how would you approach it?

AQ
AJ
88-TT
JJ+

2/19/2008 1:55:19 PM

He had to call 3235 to win about 11K. Seems like he should call in any of those scenarios.

2/19/2008 2:02:10 PM

Obviously he did, w/ AJ no less.

But i'm wondering at what point would my push range be err... I guess -ev to his calling range?

2/19/2008 2:42:56 PM

I made a call like this recently with midrange suited connectors. It's hard to pass up your pot odds.

2/19/2008 2:45:58 PM

PokerStars Game #15316286745: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/02/16 - 02:08:40 (ET)
Table 'Cowell IV' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: JuliusLT ($136.30 in chips)
Seat 2: ladodend ($53.30 in chips)
Seat 3: Mr.Yancey ($14.65 in chips)
Seat 4: C-lean81 ($31.65 in chips)
Seat 5: ablee ($44 in chips)
Mr.Yancey: posts small blind $0.25
C-lean81: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ablee [Kc Kh]
ablee: raises $1.50 to $2
JuliusLT: calls $2
ladodend: raises $8.50 to $10.50
Mr.Yancey: folds
C-lean81: folds
ablee: raises $33.50 to $44 and is all-in
JuliusLT: folds
ladodend: calls $33.50
*** FLOP *** [2h 5c 3c]
*** TURN *** [2h 5c 3c] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [2h 5c 3c Kd] [Ts]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ablee: shows [Kc Kh] (three of a kind, Kings)
ladodend: mucks hand
ablee collected $88.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $90.75 | Rake $2
Board [2h 5c 3c Kd Ts]
Seat 1: JuliusLT folded before Flop
Seat 2: ladodend (button) mucked [Qs Qd]
Seat 3: Mr.Yancey (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: C-lean81 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: ablee showed [Kc Kh] and won ($88.75) with three of a kind, Kings

I pretty much rock...i can only play premium pairs.

2/19/2008 8:22:30 PM

Congrats

2/19/2008 8:53:25 PM

Quote :

"I pretty much am a rock...i can only play premium pairs."

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 10:49 PM. Reason : fixed it for you]

2/19/2008 10:49:37 PM

next time don't cost yourself $6 by not reloading to max buyin

2/19/2008 11:37:54 PM

don't hate on my superior PLAY

2/19/2008 11:40:40 PM

Oh you crazy TWW kids.

2/19/2008 11:51:45 PM

anyone want to play HU for rollz on Stars....holla

2/20/2008 12:47:51 AM

someone should take this kid up on his offer...I've seen him play

2/20/2008 8:35:29 AM

Quote :

"In the same spot with the following hands how would you approach it? AQ AJ 88-TT JJ+"

KK & AA and maybe QQ I'd call. Your objective is to get as many chips in the middle of table as possible and reraising all in could push the initial raiser out of the pot.


Everything else your odds are better against one opponent, so I'd shove if you were going to play the hand and hope you can isolate the shortstack.

2/20/2008 2:35:54 PM

Right.

But I guess my question is, considering the non shortstack is getting reasonable odds to call with a wide range of hands, at what point (or what range cutoff) am I actually losing value by pushing?

My pokerstove trial is up so I dunno.

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 3:47 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2008 3:30:07 PM

If I'm doing my math right, you're putting in 4460 for an overall pot of 10310 about 1/2.3. Just because he's loose doesn't mean he can't pick up a hand...and if two players have put all of their chips in the middle of the table you can be fairly certain that one of them has something.

If our loose playing friend calls with the popular QT suited and the shortstack calls with AX or low PP, you're anywhere between a 30%-35% favorite (or underdog) to win the whole pot w/ AJ os. So to answer your question, with the extra chips loose player would contribute, I would say it looks like the cut off point would be anything less than the hands you mentioned with AJ and 88/99 being borderline.

2/20/2008 4:44:30 PM

Your math isn't right.

2/20/2008 4:49:59 PM

you're right...missed the blinds and antes...oh well, close enough.

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 4:59 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2008 4:52:51 PM

I was thinking 88+, however, like I said I don't have any mathmatical software at the moment to figure equities.

2/20/2008 5:31:47 PM

What do you mean?

2/20/2008 6:16:48 PM

i'm showing aj+ and 88+, however i may take a different line with KK or AA.

2/21/2008 2:17:22 AM

What does that mean?

2/21/2008 9:38:33 AM

Quote :

"What do you mean?"

What I was getting at, was the point or range at which point he is making a break even or better move to call.

I re downloaded a trial of pokerstove and came up with the following range that would have been sufficient for the villain to make the call in that situation.

Basically by the pot he needs atleast ~31.5% equity to make a break even or better play.

Given that, and some approximate ranges of both the short stack and the person of interest, I was able to develop a range in which he would be at or near that equity to make the call.
________________________________
equity win tie pots won pots tied
SHORT STACK
Hand 0: 26.380% 24.86% 01.52% 11633307392 711393798.00
{ 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
ME
Hand 1: 40.796% 37.47% 03.33% 17533471369 1556817827.00 { AhKs }
PERSON OF INTEREST
Hand 2: 32.824% 30.24% 02.58% 14152168849 1207640817.00
{ 88+, A7s+, KTs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, ATo+, KQo }
____________________________________

So basically this range is the break even point for him, at least according to my calculations.
{ 88+, A7s+, KTs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, ATo+, KQo }

I find this interesting because in his spot, I would tend to not think such a loose calling range would be profitable in the long run (particularly in a 3 way pot).

[Edited on February 22, 2008 at 1:26 AM. Reason : .]

2/22/2008 1:25:21 AM

Quote :

"3 way pot"

Quote :

"Seat 1: aceofpairs (1420 in chips) "

You can't really worry about aceofpairs b/c even if he beats you, you'll still make money if you beat the other guy.

2/22/2008 9:53:38 AM

But shouldn't it be taken into consideration when considering odds for the other guy? Obv those extra chips matter to him in terms of the odds he will be getting to make the call.

2/22/2008 10:47:33 AM

Quote :

"31.5%"

From where do you get this?

2/22/2008 10:52:24 AM

Something else to take into consideration is if either of the blinds call your all in. They would likely have a power hand and you'd be in some trouble.
Also, if the loose player is making wild raises in early position he probably isn't taking pot odds into consideration at all...just playing what he considers to be a good hand

2/22/2008 12:49:25 PM

31.5% equity came from:

225 (ante) + 200 (BB) + 1200 (initial raise) + 1200 (caller) + 7514 (my AI) - 3260 (difference in stack between me and initial raiser) = 7079

(3260)/(7079+3260) = .315 = 31.5% equity in his hand

meaning he needs > 31.5% for it to be a valid call

Is this not correct?


Pretty similar to this analysis only i'm doing it backwards in a way to figure his range, rather than MY calling range:
http://www.pocketfives.com/0CBD61C8-5F88-4F1D-A998-A0814648B17C.aspx

[Edited on February 22, 2008 at 1:30 PM. Reason : .]

2/22/2008 1:29:26 PM

Where is the small blind in your equation?

2/22/2008 1:55:43 PM

Opps sorry, where I put 200 (BB), I actually meant 200 (SB), blinds were 200/400 ante 25.

2/22/2008 2:12:46 PM