I saw a couple of used J.P. Sauer side by sides at the Bass Pro Shops in Montgomery, Al the other day. Does anyone know anything about them? They seemed pretty well made but they were selling for about $600.

8/17/2008 10:30:31 AM

\

Picked up a GSG-5 in 22LR for $499

[Edited on August 17, 2008 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

8/17/2008 10:50:33 AM

Oh man that looks like a fun plinker.

8/17/2008 10:53:56 AM

I've seriously considered getting one of those, just for the fun value, but instead decided to get a .22LR conversion kit for my AR. We'll have to go out to the range sometime and do a .22 fun day.

8/17/2008 8:21:48 PM

I use the .40 Short & Weak as my primary carry round. My G23 holds 14 155-grain Ranger SXTs. They step out at about 1200 and flatten out into a nifty little flower-petal talon thingie when they hit things. .40 has quite a bit mroe bump and snort than the 9mm though, and muzzle flip and recoil is noticeable.
In response to the post on the mighty 9mm.

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 9:38 AM. Reason : ;]

8/18/2008 9:28:41 AM

Who here has done trigger work? I've got a Savage Model 24 and the trigger is atrocious. I'd like to smooth out the pull and drop the pull weight. If anyone has any advice let me know or feel free to drop me a PM.

Thanks!

8/18/2008 1:26:36 PM

Quote :

"I use the .40 Short & Weak as my primary carry round. My G23 holds 14 155-grain Ranger SXTs. They step out at about 1200 and flatten out into a nifty little flower-petal talon thingie when they hit things. .40 has quite a bit mroe bump and snort than the 9mm though, and muzzle flip and recoil is noticeable. In response to the post on the mighty 9mm."

I've done a lot of research into it, including performing tests myself. I've also owned a Glock 30 btw. The fact of the matter is the 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP are all very similar in performance in terms of energy, expansion and penetration. The .45ACP does edge the 9mm out, barely, but the .40S&W is not much of a leap at all. I can believe the felt recoil is higher in your Glock 23 due to chamber pressure differences and the fact that the Glock 23 uses the exact same recoil spring as the Glock 19.

If you can provide me with non-biased evidence that shows a massive difference in performance between the 9mm and the .40S&W then fine. If it's one test, that wont cut it. I can show you tests where a certain 9mm round outperforms a certain .40S&W round. That isn't enough, I'm talking serious evidence that there is a BIG difference (ie - "quite a bit more bump and snort"). I've looked into quite a bit of ballistics testing and done some myself. The 9mm will easily expand to .7" and penetrate 12"+ with proper ammo selection. People who think the .40S&W is significantly more powerful than the current 9mm aren't basing that assumption off of facts or they have a different definition of significant than I do. For instance, if one is saying that gaining perhaps 50ft.lb. of muzzle energy is massive then yes, the .40S&W is "massively" more powerful.

IMO, the 10mm is a cartridge that would qualify as significantly more powerful than any of the three cartridges we're discussing and it's one of my favorite cartridges, but the .40S&W ("10mm short" y0 )is not worth the increased cost IMO. The .40S&W, 9mm and .45ACP are all in the same class of power as far as I'm concerned. They're "mid range" handgun calibers. All are acceptable with proper shot placement. With today's ammunition, the difference is truly negligible. I prefer to give up 50ft.lb. of muzzle energy for increased capacity, significantly decreased cost and slightly faster follow up shots. I've yet to meet anyone who thinks the 9mm is weak enough to let me shoot them in the chest or head with one.

I've read the stupid 1980's shooting where the 9mm fails, as well as some other random things that people bring up (Like testing from the 1930's and shit) that's not enough evidence for me. Thousands of real world shootings as well as ballistics tests indicate otherwise. Muzzle energy is a bit higher with the .40S&W and the bullet weight can be higher, but the difference in power is still small. All of these calibers are quite sub-par compared with a "real" caliber such as the .308 NATO or a nice 12 Gauge Slug.

Again, there is a difference between the 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. It's just not very big and all of them are adequate with proper shot placement. Note that I never said those other calibers suck, they don't, I just stated some advantages of the 9mm. I didn't form this opinion from random assumptions and things my "buddies" told me. I formed it from ridiculous amounts of research and communication, as well as actual testing. If you were to restrict me to FMJ's (As is the case with the military from my understanding), I would take the .45ACP every single time. But with today's technology, 9mm JHP's have incredible performance. ATK's LE website has a lot of tests using Federal's HST listed under the wound ballistics section. The HST actually seems to be one of the best rounds I've ever seen in terms of extracting the maximum potential out of a given caliber. They manage to make the difference in the 9mm and .45ACP quite large. Their .45ACP round actually expanded to well over 1" (I believe it was actually 1.1" and penetrated 12"+ ), while the 9mm round was only expanding to .7"+ with similar penetration. That kind of expansion in .45ACP isn't the norm, but the HST is a very nasty bullet. I have some in 9mm, the only bullet I really prefer to the HST is the Gold Dot due to the bonded core. I've had HST's do some weird stuff on me during my personal testing due to the fact that they lack the bonded core.

Here's somewhere to get some objective evidence on how the performance of various rounds in lots of different calibers compare:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html

Oh, btw, I will not read "box-o-lies" so if anyone links me there it will be a waste of your time. Their testing methods are beyond sub-par.

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 5:11 PM. Reason : ]

8/18/2008 4:46:54 PM

I agree with some of that except that you left out the .357 SIG cartridge. It out performs the 9mm and .40 on almost every level. It is also more fun to shoot. Personally I dont want to get shot with any of them.

8/18/2008 7:07:40 PM

Quote :

"Who here has done trigger work?"

i've adjusted Remington 700 triggers to have a very nice feel, but never a Savage.

I also just dropped my 1911 off at PDHSC to have the trigger and action worked.

Quote :

"Again, there is a difference between the 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. It's just not very big and all of them are adequate with proper shot placement. Note that I never said those other calibers suck, they don't, I just stated some advantages of the 9mm... f you were to restrict me to FMJ's (As is the case with the military from my understanding), I would take the .45ACP every single time. But with today's technology, 9mm JHP's have incredible performance."

Concur on all counts.





also, I've been at the rifle range (USMC) at work every day since Friday before last...I was practicing and qualifying up through Friday (qualified expert again), but today we were sighting in for tomorrow's pass/fail tactical shooting test (controlled and hammer-pair double-taps and failure to stop drills while walking and pivoting). Since it isn't scored, we were allowed to attach the ACOG 4x scope to our rifles today (I shoot an M4). From 300m in the prone, I shot a 4-shot group dead center in a group small enough that it was covered by a single 4" shot spotter. I don't know how much smaller it was, just that it was no larger than 4". This was also while aiming at a torso sillhouette target, rather than a small bullseye. I'm pleasantly surprised with the accuracy of the M4, and would like to see what it would do from sandbags, with a higher power scope and a small bullseye target to aim at.

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 7:29 PM. Reason : asdfads]

8/18/2008 7:27:48 PM

The savage 24 looks complicated as hell according to my gunpartscorp. catalog. I have used Kapp Ogburn ( inside pdhsc) with great results, he will work on old stuff but he has a big backlog. Take it and go talk to him. more than likely the work needed is just stoning some stuff smooth and polishing the pins, then lubing it with a good grease. That being said it has more pins and doodads to go flying into your carpet than a box of tinkertoys, so dont fuck with it. gunsmiths charge extra if you bring it in a ziploc ( ask me how I learned that gem) You will have to pay for alot of labor but not much for parts.

8/18/2008 8:07:59 PM

yeah, I'm in Alabama. I'm not going to Ogburn for this one.

I wanted to do it myself. Part of the reason I bought the 24 was as a project gun . . . complicated or not. I wasn't planning on doing anything major, just replacing some springs and polishing / stoning the trigger mechanism. I'm competent enough that I can deal with flying pins and doodads. That's what linoleum is for.

8/18/2008 9:02:03 PM

Quote :

"Again, there is a difference between the 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. It's just not very big and all of them are adequate with proper shot placement. Note that I never said those other calibers suck, they don't, I just stated some advantages of the 9mm. I didn't form this opinion from random assumptions and things my "buddies" told me. I formed it from ridiculous amounts of research and communication, as well as actual testing. If you were to restrict me to FMJ's (As is the case with the military from my understanding), I would take the .45ACP every single time. But with today's technology, 9mm JHP's have incredible performance."

I agree with all of that, and I wasn't trying to say that 9mm was inadequate in any way.
All I was really stating is that .40 generally is a bit more powerful and has more recoil than 9mm. Many people say it's not worth the extra cost and recoil over 9mm. I say I don't really care, as it's pretty much splitting hairs at that point. The small difference in muzzle energy is probably not noticeable by the recipient of either.
I'll say the same thing when people bring up the argument of .40 v .45.
I've never cared for the .357 SIG round, essentially because it's basically just a hot 9mm for double the cost and even more snappy recoil than .40.

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 10:09 AM. Reason : .]

8/19/2008 10:07:17 AM

Quote :

"I have used Kapp Ogburn ( inside pdhsc) with great results"

very nice guy.

8/19/2008 12:52:59 PM

this is the tenative plan for the GSG-5

8/19/2008 10:29:30 PM

Tacticooool .22LR

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 10:38 PM. Reason : Shit looks nasty son, if only it were an MP5.]

8/19/2008 10:38:12 PM

you can get a semi auto mp5. it's all old though. mp7 yo.

8/20/2008 4:47:23 PM

Quote :

"Who here has done trigger work? I've got a Savage Model 24 and the trigger is atrocious. I'd like to smooth out the pull and drop the pull weight. If anyone has any advice let me know or feel free to drop me a PM. "

http://www.cylindersmith.com/savage24/24trig.html

I've never done a Savage 24 trigger, but have done quite a few other trigger jobs.
Hopefully that link will give you some help.

Here are my words of advice from personal experience:
1-You need to understand exactly how the mechanism works before doing anything.
2-You really need to understand exactly how the mechanism works before doing anything.
3-Surface engagement of any part must always be positive. In other words [in common trigger mechanisms] trigger movement should not result in any sear movement that puts the sear in a position that is closer to disengaging.
4-Engagement surfaces must be perfectly perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the gun. That is difficult to do freehand. Not impossible, but difficult.
5-Most files are too coarse for trigger work.
6-High quality ceramic stones are the best tool.
7-Don't use a dremel, polishing compound, or sandpaper.

8/21/2008 1:08:10 AM

Quote :

"Who here has done trigger work?"

Ive had Ogburn put a Timney competition trigger in my 700

He is a great guy and on top of knowing his shit, and being patient, he wont try to sell you on something you dont need

8/21/2008 9:06:39 AM

Why didn't you put it in yourself?
A Timney is a drop in part, just pull the barreled action out and swap trigger assemblies.

8/21/2008 11:16:04 AM

Thanks for the link. I'm fully aware that this isn't a beginner job, but you have to start somewhere and this isn't a gun I'm emotionally attached to. I just thought it was pretty cool and I wanted a project gun, so this is it.

We'll see how it goes.

8/21/2008 11:29:56 AM

Quote :

"Why didn't you put it in yourself? A Timney is a drop in part, just pull the barreled action out and swap trigger assemblies. "

I had been contemplating a new trigger for awhile. It just so happened that the bolt release button was not allowing the bolt to be removed. As this was my first 700, I wanted a pro to examine things first...which turned out to be a good move. After pulling the rifle apart, Ogburn found that (insert factory-trigger-assembly-part-name-that-i-dont-remember) had been installed backwards or was bent. The rifle came from the factory like this, but apparently was not the first time he had seen something like that from a 700.

Since he was already taking care of the bad part issue (which he said he was amazed the rifle was even able to "hit the side of a house") I had him go ahead and do the trigger as well.

8/21/2008 6:15:46 PM

did you get the gsg-5 at PDHSC? they had 1 rifle length marked sold ont he wall when i went in, 1 'sold' pistol length, 1 still up for grabs.

8/21/2008 7:39:40 PM

Quote :

"you can get a semi auto mp5. it's all old though. mp7 yo."

Great weapons, but unfortunately nowhere near worth what you have to pay to get one these days.

8/22/2008 7:50:53 AM

i agree i'm not willing to part with upwards of 10k for one weapon. well maybe a howitzer or something, but nothing smaller.

8/22/2008 8:23:49 AM

http://www.cannonltd.com

A full scale 12 lb Mt. Howitzer is only $6,500 if you buy it with a carriage which'll run you another $4,200. So you're actually pretty close with $10k.


And lets be honest, it'd be a lot cooler to blast away Old Man Dreher style with this in your back yard than some stupid MP5:

8/22/2008 12:42:05 PM

uh can it shoot real cannon balls? functional?

8/22/2008 1:01:18 PM

yup, you've just got to make your own cannonballs or canister shot.

8/22/2008 2:12:57 PM

bcsawyer and I have pulled the cord on the new 32pound cannon at Ft. Fisher. Family legacy FTW

8/22/2008 4:58:12 PM

Quote :

"canister shot."

I like shotguns, and grapeshot out of an artillery piece is sort of the ultimate shotgun, lol. I'll have to get myself one whenever I have thousands and thousands of dollars to waste.

8/23/2008 6:23:20 AM

freakin grapeshot man, crazy stuff. takes too long to load. would be useless against a zombie army.

[Edited on August 23, 2008 at 10:39 AM. Reason : eh ]

8/23/2008 10:38:48 AM

both grapeshot and canister loads just as fast as round shot.

8/24/2008 4:20:20 PM

do you have to load powder manually? does a prepacked charge exist?

8/24/2008 10:54:01 PM

If you're interested in modern competition with them, check this out - http://www.n-ssa.org/. I do Civil War Reenacting, so I know quite a few people that do this regularly. If you've never seen a live shoot, you're missing out.

8/25/2008 10:07:56 AM

^^ Powder came pre-measured in cloth bags. I don't recall if they had different increments as they do today, but the bag itself was rammed down the barrel, followed by the projectile of choice. Canister and grape shot both came pre-packaged:


canister:



Grape Shot:



IIRC, grape shot was a bit bigger, had longer range, and was more common in naval warfare where it did the double duty of anti-personnel and anti-material whereas canister was mostly a field weapon.

8/25/2008 2:03:06 PM

ToysRUs is selling Night Vision Scopes?

I wonder if it comes with a nerf adapter.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2850488&kw=2850488&f=Taxonomy/TRUS/2254197&sr=1&origkw=2850488#showReviews

freakin sweet. but not for $2800

8/26/2008 6:14:36 PM

Quote :

"Me and my buds are hardcore airsofters. We run missions like border protection, hostage rescue, assaults etc. We do this so that one day when this fine country calls on us to defend it we will be ready. There is no training like airsoft training, the military needs to send Delta to consult with us and we would own Iraq. Anyway this scope mounted to my A.S. M4 allowes me to steathly approach an objective under the cover of night [...]. When I initially bought this I was the first in my unit and I took out everyone. Now a few other guys have it also. But now I own the night. Pittsburg A.S. Beta Squad."

Quote :

"Got this for my son, thought it was [$], but hey, that's what company credit cards are for! lolAnyway, we mounted it to his nerf-mforgery, and he's the terror of the street! Blading people at 45 degrees and sticking those little nerf darts like a madman!5 stars? I give it 6!"

Quote :

"I put the cross-hairs on Big Bird from 200m on a completely starless night and he/she/it was none the wiser! Not to mention scopin' in on Ms. Piggy as she was gettin' wit da jiggy...if you know what I'm sayin'!"

8/26/2008 8:01:16 PM

So the trigger job on the Savage 24 went pretty well. I took a little height off of the sear, polished the face of the trigger and, aside from a tiny bit of creep at the beginning of trigger travel, the gun is considerably cleaner breaking than before.

8/28/2008 6:19:07 PM

pics?

8/29/2008 11:14:48 AM

No, not really. A slightly reduced and polished sear on a 30 year old trigger isn't worth taking pictures of when it is already out of the gun, much less after I've re-assembled the thing.

It looks about like this though:




This'll be a fun gun to bum around in the woods with after deer season is over and while squirrel is still in.

8/29/2008 3:30:36 PM

If you own a 1989 or older P226 Sig Pistol with serial # U0 or U1 and were thinking about getting the .22LR conversion kit, think again. It doesn't fit.

The newer ones with U3 and higher do fit.

The same with the 229 conversion, only the railed models are compatible.

8/30/2008 9:39:00 PM

I'll never use that information, but thanks!

8/30/2008 9:47:57 PM

I found a used, but still in very good condition, Sig P220 today with a Crimson Trace laser sight grip and Trijicon night sights for $650, which sounds like a good deal to me but I wanted to double check with people who know better. Is that a good deal or does it sound about what one might expect?

9/9/2008 5:11:31 PM

caliber? what condition are the CT grips in? Over time the soft rubber grips can disintegrate, so you'd want to check for that. Doesn't sound unreasonable though, if it is in really good condition and the CTs are too.

9/9/2008 6:28:17 PM

I bought my P220 with Trijicon night sights but no Crimson Trace laser sight grip for $550 in great shape if that helps.

9/9/2008 8:58:27 PM

CT might replace the grips for you if they are too far gone.

9/9/2008 9:02:15 PM

That sounds like a fairly good deal.
Used 220 with night sights would be around $600 in excellent condition. CT grips are freakin $250 new...so $650 in good condition sounds good to me.

Keep in mind, night sights use tritium, a radioactive isotope of hydrogen.
It's got a half life of around 12 years. If the 220 is 12 years old or more then the sights will only be half as bright, (or getting close to worthless in all but complete darkness).
So, if the gun is old then night sights shouldn't add much value.

[Edited on September 9, 2008 at 10:27 PM. Reason : My 17 year old 228 has night sights that are hard to see in total dark.]

9/9/2008 10:25:13 PM

Tritium is very nice in nuclear weapons too. It allows you to make them significantly more potent (Tritium-Deuterium fusion). Although I believe the tritium is actually formed during the fission process of Lithium-7 (Or even naturally occurring, un-enriched Lithium-6) in "dry" Thermonuclear Warheads, rather than being isolated beforehand and injected into the mix. The reason for this being that, as stated above, the half-life of tritium is very short and requires warheads that contain it to be serviced quite often to keep them viable.

That crazy eagle scout kid (David Hahn of "Commerce Township, Michigan") used tritium from gun sights as well as americurium from smoke detectors to use in his homemade "reactor." It was a block of lead with a hollow hemisphere cut into it, lol. He looks real good with all of those radiation sores y0.




mmmmmm, tritium boosted fusion (15Mt total; 10Mt "fast fission," 5Mt fusion I believe):

Quote :

"The Bravo test created the worst radiological disaster in US history. Due to failures in forecasting and analyzing weather patterns, failure to postpone the test following unfavorable changes in the weather, and combined with the unexpectedly high yield and the failure to conduct pre-test evacuations as a precaution, the Marshallese Islanders on Rongelap, Ailinginae, and Utirik atolls were blanketed with the fallout plume, as were U.S. servicemen stationed on Rongerik. Within 15 minutes after the test radiation levels began climbing on Eneu Island, site of the test control bunker, which was supposed to be upwind from the test and thus immune to fallout. An hour after the shot the level had reached 40 R/hr, and personnel had to retreat from the control room to the most heavily shielded room of the bunker until they could be rescued 11 hours later. An hour after the shot Navy ships 30 miles south of Bikini found themselves being dusted with fallout with deck radiation levels rising to 5 R/hr. navy personnel were forced to retreat below decks and the ships retreated farther from the atoll. As the fallout drifted east U.S. evacuation efforts lagged behind the plume. At Rongerik, 133 nm from ground zero, 28 U.S. personnel manning a weather station were evacuated on 2 March but not before receiving significant exposures. Evacuations of the 154 Marshallese Islanders only 100 nm from the shot did not begin until the morning of 3 March. Radiation safety personnel computed that the islanders received a whole-body radiation doses of 175 rad on Rongelap, 69 rad on Ailinginae, and 14 rad on Utirik. The Japanese fishing vessel Daigo Fukuryu Maru (Fifth Lucky Dragon) was also heavily contaminated, with the 23 crewmen receiving exposures of 300 R, one of whom later died - apparently from complications. This incident created an international uproar, and a diplomatic crisis with Japan. The entire Bikini Atoll was contaminated to varying degrees and plans for conducting test operations from the islands, including use of the firing bunker, had to be abandoned. All further Castle tests were controlled by radio link from the USS Estes. After this test the exclusion zone around the Castle tests was increased to 570,000 square miles, a circle 850 miles across (for comparison this is equal to about 1% of the entire Earth's land area)."

[Edited on September 9, 2008 at 10:59 PM. Reason : ]

9/9/2008 10:40:31 PM

Quote :

"That crazy eagle scout kid (David Hahn of "Commerce Township, Michigan") used tritium from gun sights as well as americurium from smoke detectors to use in his homemade "reactor." It was a block of lead with a hollow hemisphere cut into it, lol. He looks real good with all of those radiation sores y0. "

yeah, that's a crazy story. i didn't know it ate up his face like that, though.

if i'm not mistaken, he ended up enlisting in the Navy to work on ship/sub reactors.

9/9/2008 11:41:28 PM

Yeah, from my understanding his face looked like that recently (Photo was from 2007, but he built his "reactor" in 1994 at age 17), when he was arrested for stealing a bunch of smoke detectors from his apartment complex. They think those sores are from recent exposure, indicating that he's still trying to build reactors or is at least playing around with radioactive isotopes.

He did join the Navy and was put on the USS Enterprise (Nuke powered as you know), but he was not allowed to see the reactor (And we both know that's probably the only reason he went in).

It also says on his Wiki page that he later re-enlisted as a Marine.


I like how he got his mom's property designated as a Superfund Haz. Mat. site, btw:

Quote :

"The United States Environmental Protection Agency, having designated Hahn's mother's property as a Superfund hazardous materials cleanup site, dismantled the shed and its contents and buried them as low-level radioactive waste in Utah. Hahn refused medical evaluation for radiation exposure."

Another fun fact:

Quote :

"EPA scientists believe that Hahn may have exceeded the lifetime dosage for thorium exposure, but he refused their recommendation that he be examined at Fermilab, a nuclear science facility near Chicago."

[Edited on September 10, 2008 at 12:03 AM. Reason : ]

9/9/2008 11:56:44 PM

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9/13/2008 1:12:36 PM