Quote :

"the timeline according to haaretz still said otherwise at 12:49"

the Haaretz timeline never supported your assessment...nor your claim that per IDF shelling was in response to those rockets.

Quote :

" I think there was also something in there about not advancing beyond the territory"

Ah maybe that was the stipulation...haven't read over details of the cease-fire yet.

8/1/2014 5:18:04 PM

they had the rockets at 10:00 and gunfight where the kidnapping happened at 11:19

8/1/2014 5:20:00 PM

Quote :

"Nobody is forcing the IDF to pull the trigger on UN schools filled with civilians."

Right. They can just sit back and let Hamas keep shooting at Israeli civilians with impunity, right?

Quote :

"And do you know why people like me would scream, "oh look at Israel, invading Gaza again in another act of aggression!" ???"

Because that's exactly what you would do. If Israel were to storm a hospital in Gaza with troops in order to get at the people who are firing rockets from said hospital, you would absolutely call it an act of aggression and criticize Israel for it.

Quote :

"So they value the life of their soldiers more than they do the life of Palestinians?"

Seriously, dude? Seriously? You're damned right they care about the lives of their soldiers more than the lives of other people, especially more than the lives of people who willingly harbor terrorists. Hell, the US feels the same way about its own troops. What, 5000 US troops die over 10 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, and "oh, it's too much!!!" We don't seem to give a fuck about the tens of thousands (probably much more) of civilians we killed in the process.

8/1/2014 7:29:17 PM

Quote :

"Because that's exactly what you would do. If Israel were to storm a hospital in Gaza with troops in order to get at the people who are firing rockets from said hospital, you would absolutely call it an act of aggression and criticize Israel for it."

Yeah, dude. I know. I even admitted that I would. And then I gave my reasoning for it immediately afterward. We're in agreement here. Israel has put themselves in this position by both simultaneously denying Palestinians the right to self-govern with full autonomy and not offering them citizenship within a larger Israeli state. Those in Gaza are in a stateless limbo. Sometimes they lash out with their VERY limited means. It's not all that surprising given their economic reality.


If your goal is to state that I would be outraged at a foreign army violating basic human rights and disregarding civilian law, then congrats, you got me. But I'm even more justifiably outraged at a foreign army wantonly killing scores of civilians. I frankly don't see why that's an issue, unless your aim is to paint me as some sort of sissy limp-wristed, faggy little baby that never lets armies have any fun.

Quote :

"You're damned right they care about the lives of their soldiers more than the lives of other people, especially more than the lives of people who willingly harbor terrorists"

I know this. They've demonstrated this. If this latest ceasefire was ended do to the capture of a soldier and killing of the others (not to re-open this debate), the immediate retaliation shows just how little they care about Palestinian life. This, however, directly opposes the words of Netanyahu, who goes in front of American news stations and says, "we don't want to hurt innocent civilians." Clearly, they don't care. 1,500 dead in three weeks speaks for itself.

Quote :

" Hell, the US feels the same way about its own troops. "

I don't think I need to prove my position on US foreign policy to you, do I? Pretty sure its well documented on this forum. Just check the "drones" thread. And even if it isn't clear, I'm sure you can correctly guess my position on this matter as well.

8/1/2014 7:58:21 PM

http://america.aljazeera.com/multimedia/photo-gallery/2014/8/photos-gaza-s-devastatedlandscapes.html

8/1/2014 11:42:08 PM

looks like they picked the wrong fight

you guys ITT are so cool and / or revolutionary

you should pick on the lone Jew some more

8/2/2014 12:13:17 AM

The IDF publicly stated for the world to hear and read that they would continue to seek out the tunnels during the ceasefire. The UN and US were ok with this because the main reason Israel wouldn't agree to the ceasefire previously is because a disengagement would give Hamas the opportunity to smuggle more weapons.

Militants were in fact in the tunnels and since soldiers were attacked and abducted it just proves they were right to be paranoid.

Times of Israel has been live-blogging the events since the hours leading up to the ceasefire. At first Hamas claimed to know nothing about the abduction and even went as far t say as Israel was making it up. Now they are saying that they did in fact issue the order, but they have now lost contact with the group that carried out the mission and that the soldier is likely dead.

From President Obama: "I think it’s going to be very hard to put a ceasefire back together again if Israel and the international community can’t feel confident that Hamas can follow through on a ceasefire commitment."

If anyone has lost count, Hamas has now broken 4 straight ceasefires.

8/2/2014 1:05:50 AM

Quote :

"Clearly, they don't care. 1,500 dead in three weeks speaks for itself."

I'd think they could do much worse if they wanted to, but that's just me The whole situation is just fucked up. Israel sucks, Hamas sucks.

8/2/2014 9:11:16 AM

Innocent people dont suck though and thats where israel is wrong. We are paying you to block the rockets. Why does anyone ever bave to die? Just ignore hamas and they will eventually be powerless.

8/2/2014 9:52:19 AM

The operation is just about over. From the Times of Israel live blog:

Quote :

"19:14 Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and colleagues now firmly set on unilateral end to the conflict in the next few days"

Quote :

"19:37 An unspecified number of IDF troops are pulling back from their positions in the Gaza Strip and taking up posts just inside the border with Israel, Ynet reports. According to earlier reports, the troops were being pulled out of Khan Yunis, in the south, and Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip."

However...

Quote :

"Hamas, for its part, says it can rebuild the tunnels, still has rocket capabilities, and has its command structure and leaders unharmed."

Quote :

"20:07 A Hamas source quoted by Channel 2 says “we won’t necessarily cease fire” if Israel does. The report comes amid IDF withdrawals from areas of the Gaza Strip and rumors that Israel will unilaterally end its operation in Gaza, with or without a ceasefire agreement with Hamas."

They spent $100 million building tunnels already and who knows how much on rockets, so it sounds like they have no interest in rebuilding Gaza's infrastructure. They just want to focus on their arsenal. For each tunnel that was built, there could have been a school, hospital, shelter, relief aid, food, water... but instead they bought concrete and rocket launchers.

The Turkish prime minister also went on record saying that Israel will "drown in blood," so there's that.

[Edited on August 2, 2014 at 1:26 PM. Reason : -]

8/2/2014 1:13:57 PM

Can you blame them? Whats the point in spending money on buildings that will be destroyed in a few years anyway. Spending money on defense is much more productive realistically because the only way to reach peace is to legitimately threaten the general public so that they can apply enough internal political pressure to force a peace deal.

8/2/2014 4:09:03 PM

Looks like they just bombed a university:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/israel-strikes-university-gaza-city-20148283821707200.html

8/2/2014 4:16:12 PM

Hamas continues to tug at the heartstrings of many by focusing the media on the plight of the Palenstinians, and across our country, and for some like Mr. Jesus, it seems to be working.

It really sucks for the Palestinians. Kinda like many parts of France during WWII. The poor French were getting the shit shelled out of them for no other reason than having a third party invade their territory. I wonder if some in the world at the time (other than the Germans of course) were condemning Americans for the needless slaughter of the innocent French that were caught up in the conflict.

For those of you that think Israel is totally in the wrong, what would you have them do? Hamas continues to break cease-fires and they continue to tell whoever is listening that they don't have plans to stop. What should Israel do?

8/2/2014 5:08:59 PM

84 rockets fired by Hamas today, only 6 of them were intercepted.

If you still need proof that rockets are being launched from schools and hospitals, here's a video from Shifra Hospital. If it's too long for you, skip to about the 2:10 mark. This is from an Arab language network in France.



And here's a reporter talking about it afterwards:


[Edited on August 2, 2014 at 5:40 PM. Reason : -]

8/2/2014 5:39:59 PM

Israel doesnt need to do anything but defend. Allow aid to gaza. Let them fish. Upgrade the iron dome and sit back. The rockets are not a significant threat anyway.

8/2/2014 6:43:32 PM

Not in most of Israel, but in cities close to the border like Sderot they are. The sirens and alarms go almost all day and night. The people having been sleeping in their bomb shelters so that they won't have to move 5 times each night. Over 70% of children there are being treated for PTSD. Miscarriage rates and depression are also well above where they would be otherwise.

There isn't the same kind of destruction seen on the other side, but it doesn't mean the safety of those people should be ignored.

8/2/2014 7:41:40 PM

sounds like they just need to shut off the sirens

8/2/2014 8:06:28 PM

^Sure, they can stand there and watch the rockets explode down the street instead of having a 7-15 second head start to find cover.

The captured Israeli soldier, Hader Goldin, has ben concluded as dead.

[Edited on August 2, 2014 at 8:10 PM. Reason : -]

8/2/2014 8:08:39 PM

Quote :

"looks like they picked the wrong fight"

8/2/2014 8:18:30 PM

Quote :

"Hamas continues to tug at the heartstrings of many by focusing the media on the plight of the Palenstinians, and across our country, and for some like Mr. Jesus, it seems to be working."

-- rjrumfel

Quote :

"The Jews gradually are having to depend more and more on themselves, and have recently found a new trick. They knew the good-natured German Michael in us, always ready to shed sentimental tears for the injustice done to them. One suddenly has the impression that the Berlin Jewish population consists only of little babies whose childish helplessness might move us, or else fragile old ladies. The Jews send out the pitiable. They may confuse some harmless souls for a while, but not us. We know exactly what the situation is."

-- Joseph Goebbels, November 16, 1941




[Edited on August 2, 2014 at 8:36 PM. Reason : you were saying?]

8/2/2014 8:35:42 PM

I hope to God that is a troll post, to use Joseph Goebbels to make a point.

8/2/2014 8:46:48 PM

Lol ptsd. What a joke. Its infinitely safer to live in a border town than it is to live in tornado alley. The sirens and sheltering process are quite similar except there is no iron dome to intercept 95% of tornadoes.

8/2/2014 9:44:28 PM

mister jesusH should go into politics

really good foot in mouth moments are hard to come by

at least we can ignore him completely now

8/2/2014 9:45:56 PM

Also, if anyones counting. Hamas has killed 27 iaraeli civilians in the last 10 years with their rockets. Israeli jews are 30x more likely to be mirdered by other israeli jews than by hamas.

8/2/2014 10:01:06 PM

^^aren't you a substitute teacher at a community college?


Do you even care to argue the points of the comparison? Or does the mere mention of Goebbels immediately shut down debate?


[Edited on August 2, 2014 at 10:12 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2014 10:11:32 PM

hahaha, lets demean an educator because we mis-quoted a nazi

excellent

also your six day war homework is late

[fail]

8/2/2014 10:16:07 PM

Look man, I'm not demeaning any educators here. If you wanna grade papers and babysit under-achievers all day, that's your business.


I'm not comparing rj the user with Goebbels the nazi. I'm comparing his callous comment about "tugging at heartstrings" with Goebbels' equally callous comment about "shedding sentimental tears" for the "childish helplessness."

Both comments were said with one goal in mind: To end sympathy for the conditions of the oppressed. I would think that a self-described educator would be able to see that.


Did I compare this operation with the Holocaust? I did not.

Did I call rj a nazi? I did not.



You should go back to trying to intimate that I am somehow anti-semitic for being critical of the asymmetric military actions of a democratic nation and US ally. That's what all the cool-kids are doing, right?

8/2/2014 10:35:59 PM

you should really take your bachelors degree in accounting somewhere else

8/2/2014 10:49:34 PM

You can do better than that.


I genuinely laughed at your balsa-wood-shit-stick-rocket post.


The rest, not so much.

8/2/2014 10:53:11 PM

the fact is nothing youve said is an original thought

regardless of the correct / incorrect nature of your arguments they arent your own and neither are the conclusions youre drawing

we might as well be reading any generic anti-israeli blog that isnt skinhead in nature

its basically the same drivel that was thrown up after 9/11 about how the US 'deserved it,' or any western nation 'deserves it' when they 'overreact' in quashing a bunch of violent / under-equipped peons

we would be better off debating the creation of israel in the first place or discussing their gains in 1967 / the loss of those gains

we would be better off discussing the collective embarrassment faced by the entire arab world after israel spanked them so soundly / quickly

we would be better off discussing how this is actually an arab proxy war using 'the jews' as a strong-arm against muslim extremists

why are you cheering for hamas, hezbollah, iran, muslim brotherhood, qatar, and turkey

egypt, jordan, and saudi arabia are awfully quiet arent they

this thread is boring and i tire of generic talking points

im glad you enjoy jokes about balsa wood ill try to work that material in more often

[Edited on August 2, 2014 at 11:07 PM. Reason : o]

8/2/2014 11:07:14 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/03/israeli-soldier-thought-captured-is-declared-dead/

8/3/2014 2:14:39 AM

Quote :

"killed in an Israeli bombing after being kidnapped by Hamas"

Whoopsie daisy

8/3/2014 5:26:09 AM

I really recommend this book regarding the offensive strategies of the Hamas organization as it fully documents the use of human shields and the baiting of civilian deaths.

Also, it gives a pretty good account of the history that lead to the founding of Israel. I read this book for the first time about 8 years ago, and was pretty impressed by the factual nature of it as opposed to it being more anti-palenstine propaganda.




[Edited on August 3, 2014 at 8:03 AM. Reason : l]

8/3/2014 8:02:17 AM

^Didn't you just read Jesus' post earlier regarding Goebbels? That book is just more propaganda!

8/3/2014 8:59:21 AM

The kidnapped soldier wasn't kidnapped

8/3/2014 9:15:49 AM

Gerbles does not have any credibility. That is the problem with Quintana's post.

8/3/2014 9:23:05 AM

Quote :

" Innocent people dont suck though and thats where israel is wrong. We are paying you to block the rockets. Why does anyone ever bave to die? Just ignore hamas and they will eventually be powerless. "

Innocents are targeted by both sides.

The Iron Dome system lets a lot of tickets through.

I don't think Hamas can really be ignored.

There are only villains here.

8/3/2014 10:10:12 AM

but if going after Hamas strengthens Hamas, isn't the better course of action to withdraw?

[Edited on August 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM. Reason : .]

8/3/2014 10:22:27 AM

Quote :

"The kidnapped soldier wasn't kidnapped"

What are you talking about? He was dragged through a tunnel and they found torn pieces of his uniform.

Quote :

"killed in an Israeli bombing after being kidnapped by Hamas"

Don't give a partial quote. You know how many lazy people read posted excerpts without checking the full article. Hamas said that it COULD have happened. They admitted that they gave the order to grab a soldier but then "lost contact" with the group. This was after pretending that they knew nothing about the situation.

8/3/2014 1:18:54 PM

And here are Hamas' allies and supporters:

Quote :

"Tareq Al-Suwaidan, a Kuwaiti Muslim Brotherhood leader, says on Hamas’s al-Aqsa TV on Friday that all Muslim mothers must raise their children to hate “the sons of Zion.” He also says that Jews are “greedy” for life, but his people yearn for death and martyrdom."

8/3/2014 1:26:42 PM

Quote :

"Give a partial quote. You know how many lazy people read posted excerpts."

Quote :

"I cannot continue to live and to be silent while the are being murdered. My comrades fell with arms in their hands in the last heroic battle. I was not permitted to fall like them, together with them, but I belong with them, to their mass grave. By my death, I wish to give expression to my most profound protest against the inaction in which the world watches and permits the destruction of the people."

8/3/2014 1:57:07 PM

Another UN school hit:

Quote :

" Strike on UN school in Gaza kills 10 The apparent Israeli strike on the facility comes as the ground operation in Gaza draws down absent a cease-fire August 3, 2014 7:46AM ET Updated 2:00PM ET A United Nations school sheltering displaced people in the southern Gaza Strip was hit Sunday by what a U.N. official said appeared to be an Israeli airstrike, as the military struck the Hamas-ruled territory despite signaling a unilateral winding down of its 27-day offensive..."

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/3/gaza-strike-un.html

Quote :

"Innocents are targeted by both sides."

This is true, and Hamas' strategy of firing indiscriminately provokes the asymmetric response we see. I'm not denying that. It's a horrible strategy and it puts innocents at risk.

Quote :

"The Iron Dome system lets a lot of tickets through."

This is also very true, and the general consensus that Iron Dome is super-successful has been grossly exaggerated in US media.

Quote :

"I don't think Hamas can really be ignored."

I agree with this as well, but probably not for the same reason you do. If both sides truly want a peace deal and an independent Palestinian state, however, both sides need to acknowledge one another. The problem, as I see it, is that Hamas is a right-wing militant group. There's no denying that. But the Likud party is also a right-wing group, and their military-use is wildly lopsided. This gets ignored way too much. They have no interest in an independent Palestinian state. And honestly, the right-wing in Israel is willing to tolerate the balsawood-shit-stick rockets flying into their southern towns from time to time, because it gives them a reason to go in and beat the shit of Gazan's from time to time. And it's no coincidence that those leaders then see a bump in their approval ratings (Netanyahu is up to over 80%, last time I checked). Powerful leaders within the Israeli government and military view regular involvement in Gaza as "cutting the grass." They have no long term solution. And they certainly don't have a solution that involves Palestinian statehood.

So even as this conflict winds down, we'll be back here in about two years, re-living this exact same scenario. The impetus to this latest round of violence was supposedly the abduction of three Israeli teens. They were killed (and that's awful), but the immediate blaming of Hamas was predictable, as was the disproportionate response and military raid.

Quote :

"There are only villains here."

Politically, yes. In reality, no. The high civilian death rate in Gaza is filled with about 75% innocent civilians. They have nowhere to run. They can't hide. They're fucking stuck. I know you weren't implying that they are guilty, but it's really easy to view this as a political struggle between two warring factions and overlook the volume of innocents killed. They most certainly are not villains.


But, just curious, has your position changed during this latest round of conflict? I suspect that it has. Just wondering.

8/3/2014 3:59:59 PM

So because some rockets make it through we're just going to completely ignore the facts on how many peopke they actuallly kill and use it as n excuse to flatten the region and murder thousands?

8/3/2014 4:06:08 PM

Quote :

"What are you talking about? He was dragged through a tunnel and they found torn pieces of his uniform."

Israel says that he was killed in battle in Gaza, soldiers of occupying forces often are



[Edited on August 3, 2014 at 4:22 PM. Reason : does Israel still have the policy of killing kidnapped people so they don't have to make concessions]

8/3/2014 4:22:19 PM

Quote :

"Does Israel still have the policy of killing kidnapped people so they don't have to make concessions?"

Yes, but I think most Americans don't fully understand the practice because of cultural differences. It might seem silly to a casually godless country like ours, but any noble Israeli would gladly prefer to be killed by his own countrymen rather than become a burden. You see, fascism may be misunderstood in the west, but it really works quite well in militaristic nations in times of war. Like I said, mostly just a misunderstanding of a ethno-cultural nature, really. Please try to be more open-minded.

A perfect example:
Israel taps phone calls of U.S. Secretary of State to President, others.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Report-Israel-tapped-John-Kerrys-phone-when-he-was-brokering-peace-talks-369864

They're trying to be just like us and cross that difficult cultural divide.

[Edited on August 3, 2014 at 4:43 PM. Reason : .]

8/3/2014 4:36:05 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

Thought this was a good piece, even if does come from HuffPo. it's a little biased towards being pro-Israel, but it doesn't let them off the hook, either. My favorite section:

Quote :

"1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved? Over 700 people have died in Gaza as of this writing. Muslims have woken up around the world. But is it really because of the numbers? Bashar al-Assad has killed over 180,000 Syrians, mostly Muslim, in two years -- more than the number killed in Palestine in two decades. Thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria have been killed by ISIS in the last two months. Tens of thousands have been killed by the Taliban. Half a million black Muslims were killed by Arab Muslims in Sudan. The list goes on. But Gaza makes Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shia, speak up in a way they never do otherwise. Up-to-date death counts and horrific pictures of the mangled corpses of Gazan children flood their social media timelines every day. If it was just about the numbers, wouldn't the other conflicts take precedence? What is it about then? If I were Assad or ISIS right now, I'd be thanking God I'm not Jewish."

8/3/2014 7:10:57 PM

Have not read the article, but can't argue with the quoted part too much.

8/3/2014 7:15:14 PM

^^ Is that even relevant, though? If the author is trying to make the argument that entrenched anti-semitism adds to the outrage by other nations....Then yeah, sure. That's probably true.

But does that matter? Just because there are far worse atrocities going on in the region doesn't excuse Israel's belligerence. Besides, as far as the American electorate is concerned, Israel is the only country that (supposedly) has a working relationship with the US. If Israel wants to be in the democracy club, then they should be held to the standards of their western peers. Being slightly less abhorrent then their war torn neighbours doesn't give them an excuse to oppress and bomb the shit out of their subjects.

And for the record, I was also outspoken about the US's involvement in Iraq. It was a huge mistake and completely destabilized the region, leaven thousands of innocents dead.

8/3/2014 7:56:59 PM

Takes up for israel by compqring them to isis

8/3/2014 8:43:01 PM

If you've been paying attention to what's been happening in Paris the last month, you would definitely agree that anti-semitism comes into play as far as people around the world paying attention.

Jews everywhere, regardless of affiliation to Israel, are being attacked because of what's happening in Gaza. Jewish shops had rocks thrown through their windows, a temple was bombed...it was like Krystalnacht all over again.

8/3/2014 10:54:57 PM