^ Did it really take a nationwide outcry, or was it that the nation jumped the gun. I didn't see it in the articles linked, how long after the sept shooting was it before Dooley was arrested? It took a little over a month and a half to arrest Zimmerman. Dooley wasn't arrested the day of the shooting, and I haven't been able to find when he was actually arrested.

Also note that Dooley was charged with Manslaughter, not Murder 2.

Edit:

Correction (http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/About-HCSO/Press-Releases/Releases/2010/Sept/10-279.aspx) it appears he was arrested that day, and posted bail. Not something that was clear from the original links.

Still different charges, and honestly, the situation is different too, but yes he was arrested faster.

[Edited on June 6, 2012 at 12:56 AM. Reason : asg]

6/6/2012 12:53:54 AM

AHAHAHA

6/6/2012 1:46:41 AM

"Arrested faster" as in "At all"

6/6/2012 9:33:07 AM

I'm honestly stunned that some people are in disbelief about this. To actually be surprised or dubious at the suggestion of racism in the criminal justice system, in a Southern state no less, is astounding to me. Goes to show just how different perceptions are of our own country, within our country.

[Edited on June 6, 2012 at 9:41 AM. Reason : .]

6/6/2012 9:37:54 AM

You think they're actually surprised?

6/6/2012 9:47:57 AM

Quote :

"Like mama always said, the smart man always walks away from a fight. "

actually, didn't he run? what happens if the guy catches up? or corners you? or pulls a gun on you? What did Mama say about that?

6/6/2012 9:55:45 AM

Well at first he ran, then stopped and hit his weed pipe. With THC coursing through his veins, he transformed like the Hulk into a violent gangsta thug and decided it would be a much better idea to assault the fully grown man he'd seconds ago been fleeing from.

6/6/2012 1:35:09 PM

^ that would've been Str8Foolish of him

6/6/2012 1:39:43 PM

Quote :

"fully grown man"

5'8"

6/6/2012 2:35:04 PM

but the gun made him 7'9"

[Edited on June 6, 2012 at 3:00 PM. Reason : ]

6/6/2012 3:00:29 PM

i'm pretty sure at 26 he was fully grown.

6/6/2012 3:09:43 PM

especially when he fired that Bullet

6/6/2012 4:21:27 PM

It has been decided that this court will try George Zimmerman as a youth...

6/6/2012 5:20:21 PM

Quote :

""Arrested faster" as in "At all""

No, as in faster. Zimmerman was arrested, and charged with Murder 2, just not as quickly as you would have liked. Of course Dooley had 3 eye witnesses that saw him escalate the situation, thus discrediting a claim of "stand your ground", as opposed to Zimmerman, who has only one partial eye witness who saw Zimmerman getting his ass beat which lends credence to the claim of "stand your ground", especially given that the police brought him in for questioning, and did indeed, despite claims to the contrary, document injuries consistent with getting his ass beat.

6/6/2012 7:15:24 PM

Quote :

"No, as in faster. Zimmerman was arrested, and charged with Murder 2, just not as quickly as you would have liked."

A month later, after a national outrage and the DOJ threatened to do it for them. Sorry, the Florida Justice system gets no credit for this arrest.

Quote :

" Of course Dooley had 3 eye witnesses that saw him escalate the situation, thus discrediting a claim of "stand your ground", as opposed to Zimmerman, who has only one partial eye witness who saw Zimmerman getting his ass beat which lends credence to the claim of "stand your ground", especially given that the police brought him in for questioning, and did indeed, despite claims to the contrary, document injuries consistent with getting his ass beat."

Getting your ass beat is not proof that you were defending yourself. It's just as easily proof that someone else succeeded in defending themself. After getting chased down by an armed, fully grown man, if he so much as shoved me I'd fight back with everything I had, AKA, stand my fucking ground.

[Edited on June 7, 2012 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

6/7/2012 2:04:21 PM

Quote :

"If things did go according to Zimmerman's story, then Martin should've just kept walking away and not have turned around to to fight. Might still be alive today."

Sure, if things went according to how a man who has now lied to both the police and a judge, then, sure, Martin fucked up.

Quote :

"Logic fail. Fixed it for you."

Yeah, after you make a massive assumption that just happens to support your argument. Stick with the facts that we actually know: Martin went to the store for some skittles and Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin.

Quote :

"Exactly, like I said, I'm not going to play the guessing game. I'm only basing my opinion on the current evidence."

BULLSHIT. You've already assumed one thing and used that for your argument. Come on, we're not stupid.

Quote :

"Yes, I did. If I were in his shoes, that's what I would've done. At night, someone is stalking you in their SUV, it's dark. I'm actually running at this point. Who in their right mind would turn back and confront this stranger who's stalking them?"

Which is a damned good argument for that didn't actually fucking happen!

Quote :

"He should've ran."

That's funny. Others on here have said that he shouldn't have run, and that him running is what started everything. Which is it, folks?

6/7/2012 10:52:04 PM

Quote :

"A month later, after a national outrage and the DOJ threatened to do it for them. Sorry, the Florida Justice system gets no credit for this arrest. "

Given the so far weak evidence we've seen the state present, it's no wonder they didn't go to trial earlier. I wouldn't want to go to trial on such a crappy case either. As I said before, the "national outrage" was probably the worst thing that could have happened for this case, because it forced florida to play their hand, and if their hand is too weak, and Zimmerman is acquitted, he is legally immune from any further prosecution, including civil action, and the tax payers of florida (including Martin's family) are on the hook for his legal costs.

Quote :

"Getting your ass beat is not proof that you were defending yourself. It's just as easily proof that someone else succeeded in defending themself. After getting chased down by an armed, fully grown man, if he so much as shoved me I'd fight back with everything I had, AKA, stand my fucking ground. "

All true. Unfortunately, the state has to prove Zimmerman's guilt, he doesn't have to prove his innocence, excepting that he has to show that the elements necessary for self defense were present, and getting your ass beat is that element. With no other evidence to the contrary, all they have is Zimmerman's story that he was jumped.

6/8/2012 7:34:12 AM

Quote :

"All true. Unfortunately, the state has to prove Zimmerman's guilt, he doesn't have to prove his innocence, excepting that he has to show that the elements necessary for self defense were present, and getting your ass beat is that element. With no other evidence to the contrary, all they have is Zimmerman's story that he was jumped."

Good thing were not the jury and we're just people talking about what we think happened. Juries determine guilty or not guilty. We're talking about whether he's innocent to gfto of here with what the state has to prove.

6/8/2012 8:54:53 AM

Quote :

"Unfortunately, the state has to prove Zimmerman's guilt, he doesn't have to prove his innocence, excepting that he has to show that the elements necessary for self defense were present, and getting your ass beat is that element. With no other evidence to the contrary, all they have is Zimmerman's story that he was jumped."

Zimmerman's testimony itself is gonna get thrown out if he doesn't start acting credible in court sooner or later.

6/8/2012 11:03:25 AM

Stand your ground is a misnomer, it should be called "Last Man Standing"

6/8/2012 11:03:58 AM

Quote :

"Good thing were not the jury and we're just people talking about what we think happened. "

Indeed, which is why I wasn't talking about us, I was talking about the state and how they handled the evidence they had.

6/8/2012 1:17:07 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/06/man-claims-self-defense-in-fatal-shooting-of-neighbor/

So...based on the things that I know, I generally fall on the side of Zimmerman. However, based on what I know on this other situation, this other dipshit needs to go to the slammer for a long time, and gun owners should be spearheading his crucifixion in the court of public opinion.

6/8/2012 10:59:21 PM

^why? What's the difference. It seems like, based on what we know, that the same situation could have occurred in both incidents; an overzealous hispanic with a southern accent confronts and kills an unarmed civilian that was probably talking shit.

6/9/2012 8:55:51 PM

6/9/2012 9:03:03 PM

I support Rodriguez. He was carrying the weapon legally and there's nothing illegal about talking to your neighbor.

6/9/2012 9:11:13 PM

^^I'm serious, dude. What is the difference? This guy was outnumbered and one of the dudes said he was going to go get a gun. And at the end of the video, it looks like someone confronted him?


So, where is your line? Is it because Trayvon actually got a hit in?

I think both this guy and Zimmerman are probably guilty, and that stand your ground is a stupid law that allows for shitheads to act stupid, but I'm curious what changes the scenario for you.

6/9/2012 9:28:41 PM

to start with, he was at the dude's fucking house, and furthermore, very clearly instigated the confrontation

6/9/2012 10:20:41 PM

...and Zimmerman following Martin isn't instigating anything?

6/9/2012 11:01:37 PM

Fuck it, then, if this isn't obvious to you. If this is the sort of dumbass opposition that 2nd-Amendment supporters face, then I'll just say that I fully support castle doctrine/stand-your-ground laws that limit duty to retreat when there should be none, and that it's just a shame that Danaher wasn't more decisive and quicker on the trigger to smoke that threatening intruder to his property before the guy murdered him.

6/10/2012 12:26:29 AM

the video you linked is totally obvious. I'm not arguing that.


Just wondering why you're on the fence/leaning toward Zimmerman on the other case. Is it because Trayvon got a hit in?

6/10/2012 1:15:53 AM

No, because the nature of Zimmerman's following isn't clear. Anyone can walk/drive around their neighborhood and keep an eye on anyone they want.

Now, obviously, following someone could rise to the level of threatening behavior or instigating a confrontation.

Fuck it, I don't feel like explaining this again. You've both been presented these very sensible arguments several times already, including by me.

6/10/2012 1:39:11 AM

ok, so you're giving zimmerman the benefit of the doubt.



that's fine. I was just suggesting that it is very possible that Zimmerman's confrontation was just as reckless and unnecessary as the other guys.

6/10/2012 1:44:10 AM

Right. I mean, at the very worst, I don't think it was as bad as walking into a guy's yard, waving a gun around and instigating a confrontation, then shooting him on his property.

But yes, Zimmerman may or may not have been culpable, and if he was at all, we don't know the degree. That's all I've ever said, really, other than if I was forced to just take a guess as to how things played out that night, I think that it was probably an unfortunate situation all around, with Martin rightfully irritated at Zimmerman rightfully following him, but with Martin wrongfully getting handsy and paying for it with his life.

...but sure, it's possible that Z was very wrong. I just get angry when people jump to that conclusion. This case is different, unless there's a LOT more to it we don't know. This one is pretty clear, in my mind.

[Edited on June 10, 2012 at 2:12 AM. Reason : ]

6/10/2012 2:09:07 AM

From the article you posted, it does seem obvious that Rodriguez instigated the situation. The call to 911 almost seems designed to provide justification for Rodriguez's (seemingly deliberate) provocative encounter.

I'll agree that Zimmerman's behavior doesn't seem quite as deliberate, which is why I believe Zimmerman should be facing manslaughter charges and not murder. However, I'm not so sure the two situations are fundamentally different. Both men deliberately introduced themselves into easily (trivially) avoided situations that did not require backing down from otherwise legal behavior (which is what stand-your-ground is intended to address).

It's not a great leap to say Zimmerman is in the wrong. Where you say '[Zimmerman] following someone could rise to the level of threatening behavior or instigating a confrontation', others say '[Zimmerman] following someone did rise to the level of threatening behavior or instigating a confrontation.' Statements like ' Martin wrongfully getting handsy' carry the implicit assumption that Martin in fact instigated the final confrontation (an unknown) and ignore reasonable interpretations of Zimmerman's behavior (i.e., it's reasonable to interpret Zimmerman's behavior as threatening).

6/10/2012 4:31:03 AM

Quote :

"Statements like ' Martin wrongfully getting handsy' carry the implicit assumption"

Note that statement followed the caveat that if I was forced to take a guess, I would put my money on what I described being likely. My real stance on the Z case is that we don't know what happened, it's very possible that he didn't do anything illegal or maybe even wrong, we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions against him, and in the worst plausible scenario, I think it's manslaughter at worst and definitely nowhere near as bad as the case I posted the link to.

6/10/2012 1:18:06 PM

Even saying it's very likely Zimmerman did nothing wrong is generous to Zimmerman.

We know Martin was doing nothing illegal or wrong.

We know Zimmerman did not see Martin posing an imminent threat to life or property when he chose to follow Martin.

We know Martin interpreted Zimmerman's behavior as threatening--something you acknowledge as not entirely unreasonable.

We know Zimmerman was given reasonable and prudent advice to leave.

We know Zimmerman was in no way impeded from leaving.

We know Martin ran away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman was still in his vehicle.

We know Zimmerman chose to leave the safety of his vehicle to persue someone he considered dangerous.

Wherever and however the final confrontation occured, we know Martin had just as much right to be there as Zimmerman.

Wherever and however the final confrontation occured, we know Martin had the same right as Zimmerman to stand his ground.

6/10/2012 5:26:05 PM

Quote :

"We know Martin was doing nothing illegal or wrong."

We know no such thing, and if fact, it is entirely possible that the first wrong action in the exchange was Martin confronting Zimmerman in a threatening way...and I think it is all but settled fact that Martin was wrong in physically attacking Zimmerman. The question is whether--and if so, how much--Zimmerman instigated the confrontation to begin with.

Quote :

" We know Zimmerman did not see Martin posing an imminent threat to life or property when he chose to follow Martin. "

Utterly irrelevant.

Quote :

"We know Martin interpreted Zimmerman's behavior as threatening--something you acknowledge as not entirely unreasonable."

Depends on the nature of the following. Confronting Zimmerman (though not physically attacking him) may or may not have been reasonable. We don't know exactly what Z was doing.

Quote :

"We know Zimmerman was given reasonable and prudent advice to leave. "

Utterly irrelevant.

Quote :

"We know Zimmerman was in no way impeded from leaving."

Utterly irrelevant.

Quote :

"We know Martin ran away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman was still in his vehicle."

Again, this leads into a question of the nature of Zimmerman's following.

Quote :

"We know Zimmerman chose to leave the safety of his vehicle to persue someone he considered dangerous."

For one thing, I don't really see how that's relevant, but at any rate, how do we know he considered him dangerous, anyway (up until the point that he was attacked/threatened)?

Quote :

"Wherever and however the final confrontation occured, we know Martin had just as much right to be there as Zimmerman. Wherever and however the final confrontation occured, we know Martin had the same right as Zimmerman to stand his ground."

Without a doubt--he certainly had every right to be there, and even every right to confront Zimmerman. I've said before that Zimmerman was totally reasonable in wanting to keep an eye on his neighborhood, and Martin was totally reasonable in not wanting to be surveilled. Now, the question (along with the nature of Z's following), becomes the nature of Martin's involvement in the final confrontation, and I think that most of the evidence there becomes pretty damning of Martin (although that doesn't totally absolve Zimmerman if he was a significant instigator of the whole thing, creating and aggravating a situation that Martin then mishandled).




and at any rate, all of that is way fucking different than showing up at a dude's house, starting a bunch of shit with him on his property, and then shooting him.

6/10/2012 6:17:25 PM

Quote :

"We know no such thing, and if fact, it is entirely possible that the first wrong action in the exchange was Martin confronting Zimmerman in a threatening way...and I think it is all but settled fact that Martin was wrong in physically attacking Zimmerman. The question is whether--and if so, how much--Zimmerman instigated the confrontation to begin with."

When Zimmerman began following Martin, Martin had not and was not doing anything illegal.

Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin runs away, Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle and continues to follow Martin and you're not sure if Zimmerman is behaving in a threatening manner? You're not sure if Zimmerman is creating or aggravating a situation? Most of those things you dismiss as 'utterly irrelevant' were all opportunities for Zimmerman to stop aggravating a situation that he himself created.

In Florida, reasonable belief in the immeninent use of force by another is grounds for using force yourself. How is Martin neccessarily wrong ("settled fact") in attacking Zimmerman (assuming he did) when Zimmerman continues to follow Martin, even after Martin runs away? You're litterally dismissing as irrelevent the entire sequence of events leading up to the final confrontation, all of which shape Martin's belief of Zimmerman's intent. Are you saying that any belief Martin may have had about Zimmerman intending to do harm is completely unreasonable and irrational?

6/10/2012 7:09:00 PM

Quote :

"and at any rate, all of that is way fucking different than showing up at a dude's house, starting a bunch of shit with him on his property, and then shooting him."

are we sure he shot the dude on his property? I saw a longer video where the guy claimed he was "200 feet away" when he was complaining about the noise level, but there may have been an edit in the video. So I'm not sure if he shot the dude on his property or in the middle of the road?

6/10/2012 7:39:00 PM

Quote :

""We know Zimmerman was in no way impeded from leaving." Utterly irrelevant."

Except its one of the the most absurdly relevant facts in this case. "Stand your Ground" requires that the situation not be instigated by the party claiming it. Trayvon tried to run away from the confrontation. Even assuming that Trayvon did initiate the fight, I'd say he has a much better case for SYG than Zimmerman. This, of course, is a bit simplified, but I don't feel like typing out a long drawn-out response.

(Apologies if this has been stated before.)

[Edited on June 11, 2012 at 12:15 AM. Reason : ]

6/11/2012 12:15:02 AM

Protip: If you're standing your ground against a criminal and he/she flees, be sure to give chase, thus ensuring "Your ground" remains within firing range of your assailant.

[Edited on June 13, 2012 at 12:14 PM. Reason : .]

6/13/2012 12:14:02 PM