they won't stay home. they'll vote stein or johnson. not out of spite, though, because clinton is a terrible person and there are better people to vote for.

and as trump continues to shift left, he'll gain votes from them as well.

[Edited on April 26, 2016 at 9:52 PM. Reason : ..]

4/26/2016 9:52:02 PM

luckily for the country/humanity, there aren't enough Bernie Bros sitting out the election to counteract Trumps unfavorability ratings among every demographic other than old, white men

4/26/2016 10:40:15 PM

The fact that the republican establishment prefers Hillary over Trump should tell you a lot, but if you're already a Hillary supporter, you probably don't care anyway. I can't say a majority, but as a campaign volunteer, this comes up a lot and I can say a good chunk of Bernie's supporters won't be voting Hillary under any circumstances. This wasn't the typical primary where you are trying to figure out which candidate from the same ideology is the better choice. This was a primary with polar candidates. The thing is, Trump is even more hated nationwide so as long as Kasich doesn't make it, shes fine.

I'd never vote for either one but I almost rather see trump win just because we don't know what we'd get. Not knowing leaves that 5% chance that he could be the greatest president ever open. There are times when he sounds exactly like bernie and we know he's playing a big game so its still a mystery. With Hillary, you know you get the same ole shit you've seen the last 8 years AT BEST and then theres the chance that she goes full out neocon.

Trump has hinted at universal healthcare, nonintervention, fair trade and campaign finance reform throughout the primaries. I can't forgive him for his racism/xenophobia/bigotry but can't wait to see what he looks like when he shifts to the center for the general as hillary shifts to the right.

Its going to be interesting but I hope they both lose.

[Edited on April 26, 2016 at 11:03 PM. Reason : trump?]

4/26/2016 11:01:44 PM

^^ Exactly. Just like Hillary's PUMAs back in '08, a few might sit it out, but Hillary will get wayyyy more disillusioned Republicans since Trump will be there nominee, especially given her centrist/hawkish positions.

4/26/2016 11:15:02 PM

Quote :

"luckily for the country/humanity, there aren't enough Bernie Bros sitting out the election to counteract Trumps unfavorability ratings among every demographic other than old, white men"

the country better off with clinton? probably. the world? probably not.

but hey, US #1 right?

4/26/2016 11:26:19 PM

which of the two, between Trump and Clinton, is a loud proponent of torture?

and/or murdering the families of terrorists?

4/26/2016 11:41:04 PM

which of the candidates says we shouldn't take sides with israel/palestine so we can lead negotiations?

which of the candidates opposed the war in iraq?

which of the candidates wants us out of the middle east in general?

which is worse? rhetoric that may or may not be true? or an actual track record of promoting actions that have killed hundreds of thousands and displaced millions more?

i'm honestly not sure which of them would be better for the world as a whole, and that's pretty sad considering one of them is donald fucking trump

4/26/2016 11:49:29 PM

I'm not sure he actually meant any of that. Its likely all a game to win the republican nomination. He took all of the things they have been telling people with dog whistles, and said them out loud, stole their supporters, and might not actually believe any of it.

4/26/2016 11:50:58 PM

If the Internet was the real world every registered D who voted Sanders would be switching to Trump. Thankfully it isn't.

At the risk of being ostracized by the Sanders people on here I am slightly surprised it how much more accessible Clinton has been than Sanders appears to be. Being a millennial I have way more acquaintances who support Sanders but have seen far more people on my FB feed who have actually met and spoken with Clinton on the campaign trail. I sense within communities that may not be white and affluent that is a big deal.

Of course this is anecdotal and might mean nothing.

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 7:35 AM. Reason : ^ might. Could. Might. Maybe.]

4/27/2016 7:35:21 AM

Why are you surprised? The democratic machine is designed to do one thing: win elections. A lot of people much rather have politicians who come eat with them, play domdinoes, or" rawr rawr theyre gonna hear all of us", than politicians who actually push policy on their behalf. Nobody watches cspan, reads bills or pays attention to revolving doors.

4/27/2016 8:32:17 AM

How the heck are you going to win over those voters if you don't communicate your plans to them and tell them HOW it is going to help them.

I have zero doubt that Bernie's vision is far better for the lowest socioeconomic group but the problem is he didn't do nearly enough of a good job reaching them. He did a fantastic job throwing de facto parties for college and grad school kids though. That's on no one but his campaign..

4/27/2016 9:08:44 AM

Quote :

"Donald Trump is going to be president of the United States."

Quote :

"I'd never vote for either one but I almost rather see trump win just because we don't know what we'd get. Not knowing leaves that 5% chance that he could be the greatest president ever open."

and I'm the deluded one

tell me, if clinton is as far right of left as you claim her to be, exactly who is trump going to pick up with a pivot leftwards?

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 9:15 AM. Reason : .]

4/27/2016 9:14:25 AM

Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton?

"We're going to be working very closely with our friends in the Muslim world, which are all at risk for violent attacks."

"We will no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of globalism."

"We have been embroiled in several costly and protracted conflicts and the world has become more complex, unstable and dangerous"

"I will not send our finest into battle unless necessary -- and I mean absolutely necessary. And I will do so only if we have a plan for victory with a capital V."

On Russia & China: "We are not bound to be adversaries. We should seek common ground based on mutual interests."

"Some say the Russians won't be reasonable. I intend to find out."

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 1:39 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2016 1:37:21 PM

Quote :

"How the heck are you going to win over those voters if you don't communicate your plans to them and tell them HOW it is going to help them. I have zero doubt that Bernie's vision is far better for the lowest socioeconomic group but the problem is he didn't do nearly enough of a good job reaching them. He did a fantastic job throwing de facto parties for college and grad school kids though. That's on no one but his campaign.."

So are you saying people don't know bernie's platform because he didn't communicate it well? Are you referencing anything specific because thats sounds like a reference to ny daily news which means you are insinuating everyday people said "bernie didn't explain how he will use complicated laws to force the banks to break up, so i'm just going to vote for the candidate who supports the banks instead"

I do disagree with you though. Bernie reached out to the bottom 99% almost 99% of the time. He spent so much time on it that he was called a "1 issue candidate" and "plead guilty" to that being his one issue.

Quote :

" exactly who is trump going to pick up with a pivot leftwards?"

Everybody. People are not happy with government and are sick of corrupt political parties. Hillary is running as a representation of all of that. Not many people want to carbon copy the last 8 years.

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 5:04 PM. Reason : k]

4/27/2016 5:02:59 PM

Quote :

""We're going to be working very closely with our friends in the Muslim world, which are all at risk for violent attacks." "We will no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of globalism." "We have been embroiled in several costly and protracted conflicts and the world has become more complex, unstable and dangerous" "I will not send our finest into battle unless necessary -- and I mean absolutely necessary. And I will do so only if we have a plan for victory with a capital V." On Russia & China: "We are not bound to be adversaries. We should seek common ground based on mutual interests." "Some say the Russians won't be reasonable. I intend to find out.""

Great job picking quotes, out of context, that don't sound terribly unreasonable and then having us guess who said them!

4/27/2016 6:01:21 PM

they're all Trump and none are lacking context

all are from his speech today actually

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 6:11 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2016 6:09:36 PM

ok? so what was your point then? if I had guessed Hillary had said all them it would mean what exactly? what about if I said half of them were Trump and the other half were Hillary? what then?

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 6:17 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2016 6:16:37 PM

people were saying a Trump presidency would be bad for humanity. my point is that Trump is running to the left of Clinton on foreign policy. pretty far to the left actually.

apart from the torture comments which I'm assuming were rhetoric, but we'll see

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 6:35 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2016 6:34:28 PM

Why do you think talking about torture is so bad but actually torturing people while saying "torture is bad" is somehow good?

The way you respond to this question will define how you are able to support the democratic party on many issues.
http://america.aljazeera.com/blogs/scrutineer/2014/12/9/torture-illegal-thennow.html

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 6:51 PM. Reason : its the essence of the democrats]

4/27/2016 6:50:38 PM

Quote :

"people were saying a Trump presidency would be bad for humanity."

oh, no doubt, he would be.

Quote :

"my point is that Trump is running to the left of Clinton on foreign policy. pretty far to the left actually."

he's going to try and pander to the left now and appear more presidential, but people who've been deeply offended tend to have pretty long and vivid memories. i don't see many people forgiving him.

Quote :

"apart from the torture comments which I'm assuming were rhetoric, but we'll see"

maya angelou once wrote something like "when someone shows you who they are, believe them"...

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 6:53 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2016 6:53:25 PM

Quote :

"far more people on my FB feed who have actually met and spoken with Clinton on the campaign trail"

Outside of New Hampshire, this hasn't mattered in 50 years.

4/27/2016 6:53:27 PM

Quote :

" he's going to try and pander to the left now and appear more presidential, but people who've been deeply offended tend to have pretty long and vivid memories. i don't see many people forgiving him. "

damn that sounds strangely familiar.

4/27/2016 6:55:42 PM

i mean i get why people hate Clinton, but she's not offensive every time she opens her mouth.

4/27/2016 6:57:29 PM

I think an overwhelming number of voters don't know the policies of the person they are voting for.

4/27/2016 7:03:16 PM

^^
trump isn't either if you've paid attention over the last couple weeks

he played the base. so did Clinton.

I'm not saying I'm voting for him (although I do appreciate a lot of what he said today). I'm just finding it difficult to say who would be worse for the US and the world long term.

4/27/2016 7:40:42 PM

you're pissed that Bernie's done. i get it. i think if you really think hard about it, you will probably be able to see why Trump is so much worse. maybe not now, but in a while

4/27/2016 8:24:01 PM

im really not pissed. i was actually pretty disillusioned weeks ago with how the campaign and online groups were being run. im banned from sandersforpresident, lmao

Im just saying , Clinton's foreign policy might be the worst thing about her for me. Trump, so far, wins this issue.

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 8:54 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2016 8:52:54 PM

I'm not sure how you can be serious. The entire rest of the world is absolutely terrified of Donald Trump and the US is going to be a laughing stock with a huge target on its back.

4/27/2016 9:21:44 PM

Thats the thing though. The people are tired of being the garbage men for the rest of the world while our country rots away. The things you think are good about hillary are actually all of the things the people hate about her.

The idea that they might have to fund their own defense is very terrifying.

[Edited on April 27, 2016 at 10:23 PM. Reason : Dont let the gravy train end]

4/27/2016 10:22:01 PM

Our country isn't rotting away, we're thriving, on the whole.

It's our poor and middle class that is rotting away though, and the people who are thriving tend to be older baby boomers who don't care, and they're content to let wealth accumulate to banks and corporations.

4/27/2016 10:24:59 PM

That mindset is also part of the problem. How the hell could you say we are thrivimg on a whole then say its "just the middle and lower class thats rotting away". Thats almost everybody and makes you the definition of "out of touch"

4/27/2016 11:14:59 PM

You're misunderstanding what i'm saying. The point was we're not rotting in the sense that we lack the substances we need to thrive. We have everything we need to thrive, it's just not where it needs to be.

Rot implies we are devoid of resources or lacking in resources, but we have the resources.

Trump and the GOP makes it seem like the middle class is withering because China and Mexico and free trade have sapped the average American of wealth. But we're wealthier (as a country) than ever, this wealth is just not flowing to the middle class.

4/28/2016 12:53:24 AM

You won't find revolution at the voting booth this November. Unfortunately it will be Hillary. I will probably vote Stein. Clinton is essentially an Oligarch and a Neocon. I have no party affiliation.

[Edited on April 28, 2016 at 11:10 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2016 11:03:02 AM

Quote :

"Im just saying , Clinton's foreign policy might be the worst thing about her for me. Trump, so far, wins this issue."

this is perhaps the dumbest thing you've said

[Edited on April 28, 2016 at 11:29 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2016 11:28:46 AM

<3

4/28/2016 11:40:53 AM

then again, he does know more about ISIS than the generals do. I guess I can see where you're coming from.

4/28/2016 11:48:15 AM

I'm anti-globalist. It shouldnt be hard to figure out why I prefer Trump over Clinton as far as foreign engagement policy.

4/28/2016 12:02:37 PM

Clinton is an american imperialist who believes in american exceptionalism. This is not guessing or conjecture, we know this not only because of what she has said but also because of her record while a senator and secretary of state

american imperlialism and exceptionalism are the ideological driving force behind all of our foreign policy blunders throughout the past decades, so it's not crazy to think that electing another neo-con will mean bad things for our foreign policy

[Edited on April 28, 2016 at 12:24 PM. Reason : .]

4/28/2016 12:20:58 PM

I will paypal you $5 if you can actually put together Trump's foreign policy in a coherent (and truthful) post.

bonus points if you can, with a straight face, explain how someone who wants to increase the military presence in the mid-east, who proclaims to "love war," and who wants to spark global economic warfare with a 45% tariff on chinese goods is "anti-globalist"



[Edited on April 28, 2016 at 12:37 PM. Reason : .]

4/28/2016 12:36:25 PM

listen to the speech he gave yesterday

4/28/2016 12:42:32 PM

To me the scariest part about Trump is he already on record saying he'd only nominate a justice to the SCOTUS that is approved by the Heritage Foundation. We are so close to finally having a liberal majority and he would fuck us fo decades socially. On top of that you could kiss any scant chance there would be of Citizens United being struck down.

Say what you want about Bill Clinton and Barack Obama's progressive credentials but the judges they got confirmed to SCOTUS have been progressive.

Bernie's legacy goes down in flames with a conservative court.

4/28/2016 12:48:27 PM

Good thing we have obama to nominate a liberal to the court...oh wait

4/28/2016 1:56:52 PM

Do you not understand politics? It was so clearly a move to make the GOP look like the bad guys and it worked.

Are you unhappy with Sotomayer?

I'm sure a Trump nominate justice who passes through the Heritage Foundation will be a real progressive judge..

4/28/2016 2:15:56 PM

Quote :

"It was so clearly a move to make the GOP look like the bad guys and it worked."

Great. The country is a lot better off now that the GOP looks like bad guys to democrats. Mission accomplished.


No. Thats exactly why the democrats are a joke. When playing political games is such a high priority that it even spills into your SCOTUS pick, then you are obviously too focused on winning elections and not actually interested in a policy agenda.

I want someone whose goal is to improve the nation, not make republicans look bad.

Quote :

"Do you not understand politics?"

Yes and me along with most of the country are sick of it which is why bernie and trump have had the biggest appeal this cycle. This dance between the GOP and democrats that you call "politics" is not fooling us anymore. We want a real government. Some people want it so badly that they are willing to give trump a pass on all of his bullshit just to get a fresh face.

Quote :

"Are you unhappy with Sotomayer?"

Not really, She's was really just a continuation of Souter. Nothing to write home about. She once ruled that a police officer can't be fired for racist speech off duty under the first ammendment. Going against liberal judges. Obama should not be painted as some sort of liberal revolutionary.

Quote :

"I'm sure a Trump nominate justice who passes through the Heritage Foundation will be a real progressive judge.."

We just don't know. We do know that a lot of what he is saying is a lie, just like all politicians in elections. We have know idea what he will look like in practice. We know what Hillary looks like in practice though.

[Edited on April 28, 2016 at 2:33 PM. Reason : obmam]

4/28/2016 2:32:27 PM

The only other thing I'd add, especially in the realm of foreign policy is:

Consider the different environments that Hillary and Trump are each marinating in.

The GOP, both the politicians and a good many of its supporters, is a chorus of chest beaters, dick measuring, and acting TUFF. Trump would definitely be susceptible to some knee jerk conflict if the drumbeat was loud enough, he always has to be the "toughest" guy in the room.

With out a doubt Hillary is a hawk, but her feet are going to be held to the fire by the progressive wing of the party. Bernie has succeeded in pulling the party to the left, and there is an Army of people ready to say "we told you so..." If she tries an unjustified intervention. I 100% believe Bernie has created an environment that will require Hillary to show some restraint. It's a question of how powerful do you think this force is? Admittedly, maybe it's not strong enough, but at a minimum it gives the progressive wing a seat at the table, with trump progressives get nothing IMO.

4/28/2016 2:41:00 PM

there is no risk though. if people say "i told you so" then we go back to the alternative being an establishment republican who would do the same thing running against her in 4 years. there are no more bernies.

4/28/2016 2:43:04 PM

It's a long way to November. I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that Trump is as right wing as he claims to be.

I want to believe that his goal is to reel the far right toward the center.

[Edited on April 28, 2016 at 2:45 PM. Reason : .]

4/28/2016 2:43:41 PM

^ I don't get this. At some point it has to matter what he says, no? I mean he flat out said he would run any potential nominee through that foundation. Am I suppose to act on "feelings" that he might be lying like that's a good thing?

For what it's worth, I'm not saying this as some sort of defense of Clinton. I absolutely want Bernie to be the nominee. I'm simply not willing to throw away years and potentially decades by hoping most of what a sociopath is saying are fibs.

Quote :

"Going against liberal judges. Obama should not be painted as some sort of liberal revolutionary."

I wasn't saying he is. Actually my intent was to say DESPITE he and Bill's centrist policies they still did swing the court far more left than we have seen in a generation. I don't expect Clinton 2 to be any different. This is a major, major issue for me given the court structure and obvious current open seat.

** this actually probably deserves to be in a general election thread and not democratic primary tbh. It's more anti-Trump/Cruz than pro-Dem candidate.

[Edited on April 28, 2016 at 4:29 PM. Reason : X]

4/28/2016 4:22:53 PM

Quote :

"there are no more bernies"

Plz dude. Get a fucking clue.

Not only is Bernie not the first person to run an idealistic, leftist campaign in the Dem Party, he damn sure won't be the last. The country is swinging that direction, we already have some berniesque politicians building experience, politicians of all stripes are gonna start tacking that direction, new Bernies are just entering the political sphere everyday, and if progressive momentum continues (that Bernie has done an awesome job of firing up), and Hillary veers into hard conservadem land, she'll be challenged hard in 4 years and you need to be there with a list of your greviances.

4/28/2016 4:39:41 PM

JFK was also an idealist.

4/28/2016 4:45:11 PM