Anyone held/have one of these?


Czech Vz. 58 rifles, typically $800, NOT an AK-47.

Opinions?

9/13/2008 1:14:07 PM

ttt

9/22/2008 11:51:16 AM

^^ The company I work for uses CZ58s for training. I havent had a chance to use one on the range yet though. What is really funny to me is that we can purchase brand new rifles from slovakian stockpiles for a fraction of the cost of a semi-auto version in slovakia.

9/22/2008 12:37:06 PM

I'm buying a Springfield XD soon.

I'm pretty sure I want the 4" model, but cant decide between 9mm, .40 or .45ACP.

I plan on getting my CCW in the next few months, but really dont see myself carrying this thing very much. It's just something I've always wanted to do, and think it'd be a good experience.

I'm mainly going to be just shooting it out at the farm, plinking....however I'd like it to have enough stopping power in case I ever need it for protection...

I havent read the rest of this thread (I did read saabturbo's), but what are your opinions on this?

9/22/2008 1:50:22 PM

45 all the way

9/22/2008 3:19:26 PM

shoot them all and decide for yourself.

9/22/2008 4:51:33 PM

^^^ 9mm dude. I only own 9mm's in my semi-auto handguns (My revolver is a S&W 642 Airweight chambered in .38 Special). With good ammo, the 9mm is similarly potent to the .40S&W and .45ACP, plus it costs WAY less to shoot walmart target ammo. Expect for the price to go up $5 for .40S&W and $10 for .45ACP for each box of 100rds of WWB FMJ practice ammo. It adds up quickly and for nothing. With the 9mm you get significantly higher capacity compared to a .45ACP and anyone that tells you a 9mm is weak hasn't done any research.

Let me dig up my other post in here concerning the 9mm vs. .45ACP "debate." Note that if you want to see the effects of various 9mm, .40S&W and 45ACP loads go to http://www.brassfetcher.com and click "Old Website." Here's my old post in here:

I recommend the 9mm simply due to cost alone. Target ammo is much cheaper than .40S&W or .45ACP (At Walmart, 100rds of WWB will cost you $10 less for 9mm compared with .45ACP), so for me I can shoot more often. Defensive ammo is also cheaper for 9mm when you buy it at the right places. In a store it's going to be INCREDIBLY expensive though, so watch out for that. When it comes to defensive ammo, all of those calibers are plenty adequate if you can hit your target. I am a huge 9mm fan, don't let the 9mm haters talk you out of it either. With quality defensive ammo, the 9mm can expand to over .7" and penetrate 12"+, which is plenty and will easily kill someone if you can hit a target.

I use the lightest bullet that is reasonable within a caliber when using standard length handguns. In the summer, with my Glock 17 I prefer to use 115gr +P (Or "+P+") JHP's. This is because most people don't wear many layers of clothing during the summer and lightweight high energy bullets tend to hit harder. They decelerate faster (Force = Mass x Acceleration) and carry more energy. I have talked with some gun magazine writers and LEO's, all of whom had studied thousands of real world shootings. They all agreed that the research seems to indicate that lighter/faster bullets tend to stop threats faster (They aren't necessarily more deadly, they just tend to stop the person more quickly). In the winter, with the Glock 17, I go to 124gr +P JHP's because I want to ensure that the bullet retains sufficient energy after passing through thick winter clothing.

With my Glock 26, which has a short barrel and develops less velocity, I prefer to go one step up in weight. So in the summer I use 124gr +P JHP's and in the winter I use 147gr +P JHP's. This is because with the reduced velocity I prefer to ensure adequate penetration rather than maximum energy being deposited to the target. This is just my preference, you may have totally different preferences. I believe that any of them will get the job done in 9mm as long as the round penetrates sufficiently and you can hit the target.

I recommend Double Tap ammunition in any of those calibers for self defense. They load Speer Gold Dot bullets (In some calibers they offer other bullets as well, such as Remington's Golden Saber and a few others) to higher velocities than Speer does and at half the price.

For instance, their 9mm 115gr Gold Dot reaches 1415fps and 511ft.lb. out of a Glock 17 (4.5" barrel) and costs $28/50rds. Local stores sell 20 Speer Gold Dots for the same price, so it's literally half the cost of Speer's Gold Dot while offering significantly higher performance. They use Starline cases and low flash powder too, so the overall package is incredible for the price.

People never believe me when I tell them that a factory 9mm load can exceed 500ft.lb. for some reason. But anyway, their .40S&W loads are similarly nasty, I can't find anyone else besides Buffalo Bore that can match their performance honestly. Plus, even Buffalo Bore can't match the prices.

They also offer an unbelievable .38 Special +P load for any of you snubby owners. It's loaded with a 125gr Low Velocity Gold Dot and reaches 1100fps and 336ft.lb. out of a 1.875" barrel (S&W 642)!! It's the highest power .38 Special load I've ever seen actually. Everyone I've talked to that has tried the ammo has agreed that it's excellent stuff and everyone that's chronographed it has found that it's either dead on or even under rated.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php


Here's the .38 Special round I was talking about:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_57&products_id=215


Here's the 115gr 9mm round I was talking about:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119


Other self defense rounds that I recommend off the top of my head in 9mm are:

Federal's 9BPLE (1300fps, $15/50rds, proven man stopper in many real world shootings)
Federal's HST (Any weight, +P)
Federal's Hydrashok (Get the 124gr +P+, note that it has significant muzzle flash)
Winchester's 115gr +P+ Ranger (1335fps and $20/50rds)
Speer's Gold Dot (Any weight, +P)
Remington's Golden Saber (Any weight, +P)
Extreme Shock's Enhanced Penetration Round

Again note that the best weight for you will depend upon your handgun, the time of year and other factors such as accuracy and feed reliability with a particular load. Reliability wont be a problem with any good handgun though, my Glocks have never once failed to feed, fire or eject with any round I've fed them actually.

[Edited on September 22, 2008 at 5:58 PM. Reason : ]

9/22/2008 5:54:51 PM

to your post i'd like to add, if you want to get proficient with your weapon, you need to practice with the same load that you would keep in there normally.

if you shoot gold dots, use gold dots for practice. all ammo has different characteristics. use one pistol, one brand of ammo and get good. muscle memory.

Quote :

"but really dont see myself carrying this thing very much."

yeah bigger pistols, like the XD 4", will be a pain to carry around, unless you are pretty big.

[Edited on September 22, 2008 at 6:05 PM. Reason : eh]

9/22/2008 6:04:03 PM

Agreed, but for fun, WWB is the heat. Reliable as hell and excellent pricing.

9/22/2008 6:05:26 PM

oh hell, for fun, anything will do.

9/22/2008 6:13:11 PM

cheaper ammo = more practice = you're more likely to hit your mark if you have to play for keeps.

At the gunshow in Greensboro they were selling 1440 sealed tins of 9mm for $200 OTD... thats under $.14 a round, I have never seen any other handgun caliber close to that price!

9/23/2008 7:32:55 AM

tnezami:

9/23/2008 9:31:15 AM

No thanks. Not looking for a revolver at the moment.

9/23/2008 9:43:45 AM

Quote :

"At the gunshow in Greensboro they were selling 1440 sealed tins of 9mm for $200 OTD... thats under $.14 a round, I have never seen any other handgun caliber close to that price!"

when i see really cheap ammo, i think corrosive for some reason. it's probably unfounded, but i can't dig it. now if they were gold dots or something, i would be down.

9/23/2008 5:45:14 PM

^ They weren't corrosive, it was new manufacture Barnaul FMJ ammo. The guy selling it has a rep for not buying or selling anything corrosive.

While were on the subject, why the prejudice against corrosive ammo? I shoot it all the time, all you have to do is pour hot soapy water down the barrel and gas tube, soak the bolt head and gas piston (if it has one) make sure you clean the chamber area, then clean normally.

9/23/2008 10:16:31 PM

^ thats why. I dont like to wash my rifles after shooting every time.

9/23/2008 10:18:43 PM

Quote :

"if you shoot gold dots, use gold dots for practice. "

FWIW, with Gold Dots in particular, Speer specifically makes the Lawman brand so that you don't have to pay the $$ for hollow-point but get very similar performance. Just make sure you're matching grain weights.


Speaking of grains, 9mm guys, what do you like to use? I listened to a guy pontificate for about 15 minutes yesterday on the fact that 147gr 9mm was shit. Opinions?

9/24/2008 2:59:48 PM

I carry 135gr Federal Hydra-shok's in mine. They shoot well, but aren't at all cheap to practice with - close to $1 a pop.

9/24/2008 7:32:47 PM

124 gr.

9/24/2008 7:49:53 PM

^^^ Bullshit. I do think you should use the lightest, fastest available bullet that will offer reasonable penetration in your firearm. This is from communications with various people, such as Jeff at Gunblast.com, who have stated this after studying hundreds of real world shootings. The lighter, faster bullets hit harder and tend to stop the attack more quickly. They aren't necessarily more deadly, they just tend to stop the attacker more quickly, that's all.

^ That's a good weight for year round use in a full size 9mm handgun. I like 115gr +P/+P+ in the summer and 124gr +P/+P+ in the winter for my Glock 17. I use 124gr +P/+P+ during the summer and 147gr +P during the winter in my Glock 26. The Glock 26 can't quite put out the velocity that the 17 can, so I prefer to guarantee sufficient penetration by going up in weight.

The point is, what ammunition you use is dependent upon the time of year, the type of gun, your location and what you think you'll need it to do (At the very least). People who say "This or that sucks, period" are almost always full of shit.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 8:24 PM. Reason : ^^ I use 135gr Gold Dots in my S&W 642 Airweight .38 Special.]

9/24/2008 8:20:06 PM

I snagged a deal at PDHSC, got a P-11 in 9mm(kelTec) with 4 9mm mags, all with the mag base/finger rest. Gun was unfired, came with a paddle holster, also had one of the old 40 S/W slide.barrel combos with it, as well as a .357 sig barrel for that slid. 4 of the 40 SW mags as well. $350 was the pricetag. Shot it this past weekend, broke it in good with 50 or so rounds of .357 and .40, and a couple hundred of 9mm. No fluff and buff done so far, just had to clan up 1 sharp edge the factory left on the slide. The slide would catcht he hammer if you lowered the slide down easy instead of letting it snap forward, slicked the one spot and all has been good.

9/24/2008 10:09:29 PM

Who does Saiga conversions other than Tromix (not taking conversions atm) and Red Jacket (4-6 month wait)?

9/24/2008 10:12:50 PM

Quote :

"People who say "This or that sucks, period" are almost always full of shit."

Agreed. This guy also had a low quality WASR on sale for $600 so . . .


The thing is, roughly 85% of handgun gunshot victims survive, and that is across calibers, so "stopping power" is marginal at best.

9/24/2008 10:22:31 PM

so, in this terrible economy i feel like dropping a grand on a new AR15 or M4..........any thoughts on the best brand for the money. I was thinking, stag or bushmaster. i am not a fan of DPMS as i had one once and it sucked.

9/24/2008 10:51:00 PM

http://www.del-ton.com they come to the Raleigh show.

your dpms was a victim of a bad mag and needing milspec ammo.

Bushmaster is decent, but they are bad about not staking carrier keys worth a flip, something that must be addressed very quickly.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 10:55 PM. Reason : and I took that damn break off the end, it bout deafend me. ]

9/24/2008 10:54:11 PM

i know the mag was bad, but the ammo thing pissed me off. who the hell wants to buy good 5.56 to target shoot when the bad shit is expensive enough

9/24/2008 10:58:59 PM

For 9mm my choice is 124gr Gold Dot +P

Changing the bullet weight to match the season is a good idea. I don't do it (that's why I stick to the 124gr), but it definately doesn't hurt.

The reason some people think 147gr 9mm bullets are inferior is because...well, it's because those people are stupid.
If you look at the ballistics, the 147gr is past the point of diminishing returns for muzzle energy.
The 9mm case doesn't have enough powder capacity to push the bullet fast enough to generate the same energy that the 115s and 124s have.
The equation for energy is biased towards velocity. If you're stupid enough to only take those numbers into account, then yes, the 147gr sucks.
Momentum would say otherwise.

Like Saab said, on those days where people wear really heavy coats during the time of year when people tend to put on a few more pounds, more momentum would be a very nice thing to have.

I've said it before; the top priority is [enough] penetration. If the bullet can't get to the vitals then it doesn't matter how much muzzle energy it has or how fast it's going.
I'll take a FMJ over a 115gr Corbon HP +P+ any day. Those suckers probably have the highest velocity and energy of any factory load, but don't penetrate worth a flip.

Stick with the Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, Ranger T, Hydrashok, HST, or even XTP and you'll be fine. If you don't know what bullet weight to get in any given caliber, then pick the middle of the road or sway towards the heavy side. Over penetration in most situations isn't going to hurt. Under penetration can get you killed.
Stay away from any of the mall ninja stuff.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 11:02 PM. Reason : PS - I love my Del-Ton. Get a Del-Ton and spend the rest of you $1k on ammo]

9/24/2008 11:00:13 PM

Quote :

"The thing is, roughly 85% of handgun gunshot victims survive, and that is across calibers, so "stopping power" is marginal at best."

Hence the reason I always tell people that the 9mm vs. .40S&W vs. .45ACP argument is retarded, with today's ammo the difference is basically negligible. If you're restricted to FMJ's, take the .45, but otherwise it just doesn't matter that much. For that reason, I go with the higher capacity and less expensive 9mm. A lot of those survival rates also have to do with shot placement. Most people's accuracy under stress with a handgun can easily become piss poor. Put a 9mm Gold Dot or HST properly into somebody's head or heart though and it's over.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 11:02 PM. Reason : ]

9/24/2008 11:00:32 PM

Quote :

"Most people's accuracy under stress with a handgun can easily become piss poor. Put a 9mm Gold Dot or HST properly into somebody's head or heart though and it's over."

I've never been in a gun fight, so I don't really know how I'd react.
But I am generally emotionally numb and imagine that I would be frantic for about 1/10 a second, everything will clear up, and I'd have complete control long enough to not die.

Ever see those cop shootouts where they'll empty an entire mag one handed at the bad guy?
If you look at their eyes they're never looking at their sights.
All they need is one second of control over their bodies and it'd be over.
They need more training. If every officer was a recreational shooter then I'd have more confidence in them.

9/24/2008 11:12:54 PM

i know i am

9/24/2008 11:14:52 PM

We need more of you.

9/24/2008 11:20:09 PM

^^^ I too believe that I'd hit the target, but it's a fact that your accuracy goes down. How much depends at least on your level of training, your proficiency and your previous level of "combat" experience. If you've had it happen before, your body will probably be more calm.

I can imagine that some people may go in the opposite direction though and freak out even more the next time after they've had one such experience. I would think that usually people with those personality types don't carry weapons though, but I'm sure it happens.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 11:21 PM. Reason : ]

9/24/2008 11:21:30 PM

Competative practical pistol shooting would help greatly.


it's fun too

9/24/2008 11:27:38 PM

The only bad thing is the retention reloads. Getting into that habit may get you killed in a short lasting gun fight. If it's prolonged and you have other people with you to cover your shit while you reload it might make sense. Although those situations are rare outside of combat or police work.

Kind of like police who were occasionally get killed with brass in their hands. They were emptying the brass from their revolvers into their hands and then trying to pocket it due to repetitive training in that manner. Once they were running on instinct, their "muscle memory" took over..

Still, practice as often as possible, for sure. Just try to switch it up a bit and don't memorize bad habits if at all possible.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 11:32 PM. Reason : ]

9/24/2008 11:29:32 PM

Quote :

"your dpms was a victim of a bad mag"

mags are key with the AR series. More so, I think, than in other semi-automatic rifles. FWIW, I've heard nothing but good things about the new PMag by MagPul and it runs ~$15, which is substantially cheaper (and lighter) than the HK mags.


I was thinking about training the other day as well. I've got a really good range near my house with several steel target lanes and I've got a habit of setting up 3 or 4 and then seeing how quickly I can draw, shoot, move etc. Fun stuff. But then I realized that I was training myself to shoot every human silhouette I saw. In a reactive gunfight were I was falling back on instinct, this could be a bad idea. Just something to think about the next time you're at the range.

9/25/2008 8:07:20 AM

training
training
training

Fumbler-
although preaching about sight usage is useless in a situation where one so chooses to shoot from the hip (which i've been instructed on -minimally). i would say that most altercations necessitating the use of a handgun are going to be in very close quarters, which requires you to guard the gun, and use good shot placement (and muscle memory). I daresay that in this type of situation a person has enough time to relax.

thoughts?

[Edited on September 25, 2008 at 10:59 AM. Reason : -]

9/25/2008 10:59:11 AM

Quote :

"Who does Saiga conversions other than Tromix (not taking conversions atm) and Red Jacket (4-6 month wait)?"

Me.
It's ridiculously easy to do, and I happen to have two extra sets of conversion parts at my house right now that I was about to get send back to DPH - one of them can be yours if you want to do the conversion. All you'd need is a furniture set. Send me a PM, and I can pretty much walk you through doing it yourself, or even help you out if you need.

As far as DPMS AR's, I have no trouble with mine. I don't use the factory mag much, but I've never had issues with it when I did. I usually use USGI's with Magpul followers and ranger floorplates. I have one Pmag too, and it's a great little magazine for the price.

9/25/2008 11:43:14 AM

Quote :

"FWIW, I've heard nothing but good things about the new PMag by MagPul and it runs ~$15, which is substantially cheaper (and lighter) than the HK mags."

Pmags are great. I'd never buy another mil spec mag again.

Quote :

"But then I realized that I was training myself to shoot every human silhouette I saw."

I shoot in an informal IDPA style league.
Many of our courses have good guy and bad guy silhouettes. It's good training to mix that in.

Quote :

"Fumbler- although preaching about sight usage is useless in a situation where one so chooses to shoot from the hip (which i've been instructed on -minimally). i would say that most altercations necessitating the use of a handgun are going to be in very close quarters, which requires you to guard the gun, and use good shot placement (and muscle memory). I daresay that in this type of situation a person has enough time to relax."

I'd agree, but the situations i'm talking about are from far enough away to (in my opinion) get on target with the sights.

9/25/2008 12:05:43 PM

^word

I <3 IDPA (shot in Wilkes once... haha)

9/25/2008 12:13:43 PM

^^ Yeah, I wasn't referring specifically to IDPA or IPSC, just my personal training.

Do either competitions allow you to draw from an appendix holster?

9/25/2008 4:33:33 PM

the IDPA I shot only required that it be fully concealed

9/25/2008 4:37:26 PM

IDPA almost always requires concealment, and appendix holsters are not allowed. Depending on the club, they may let you shoot anyways, but not be scored.

All holster requirements are explained here: http://idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf


IDPA is fun stuff - been shooting it at PDHSC for a while.

[Edited on September 25, 2008 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2008 4:53:51 PM

Yeah, that's why I heard. I was told to simply change the way I carry so I could compete but I don't base tactical decisions around competition rules. That is the primary thing that keeps me from competing formally.

9/25/2008 4:55:43 PM

I can understand that. It always bothered me that IDPA was really pushed as being practical practice, but they exclude a large category of common carry guns (anything under 9mm - .380, .32, some .38spl loads, etc.) from their official competitions.

So, for competition I use a full size that I carry occasionally, and carry a P32 all the time because of size and convenience.

9/25/2008 10:00:12 PM

anyone have a CZ pistol? their cz-01's are nice. the 2075 RAMI is good too.

9/26/2008 1:12:08 AM

^ they are extremely good handguns, I own one a -75 fullsize, love it, its my primary handgun as it works as a defense and plinking gun. If it were a bit smaller it could CCW, but CZ does make smaller ones than the fullsize 75 I have, and I don't CCW.

For $300 more you can get a .22 kadet adapter that works very well (.22 adapters are famous for having 'issues', I noticed the Sig .22 adapters are having some, have had no issues with the CZ, using the cheapo walmart bulk .22 at that).

Czechs are pretty well known for their excellent firearms, and incidentally Czech firearms laws are very good, in fact Czech citizens can, with license and doctors notes saying you arent nuts, CCW!

You can get em in 9mm, .40, .45, safety, decocker, fullsize, compact, sub compact. They grip like a widebody 1911.

Oh, and for kicks, I stick to old school Federal 9BP in mine. Its been around awhile that scores points in my book. I'm not a fan of shooting +P since if you load +P for defense you should be shooting +P for practice. 9mm, if you don't do something stupid (like say use 147gr bullets) will penetrate just fine. Penetration is more important to me than hole size, thats why I choose 9mm in the first place. To the 147gr people: If you have a desire for a slower moving, heavier bullet, you should have bought a .45! Light fast bullets for 9mm, Heavy slow bullets for .45, stick to what your caliber is good at!

[Edited on September 26, 2008 at 4:26 AM. Reason : ]

9/26/2008 4:21:02 AM

The Federal +P+ 115gr 9BPLE is a proven round, that's for damn sure. It's very serious when fired out of full sized handguns during the summer months. I also love the fact that you can get them for $15/50rds.

9/26/2008 10:34:25 AM

the 9mm +P (or P+... i dont keep up with this ammo), are there handguns specified for this round? I've seen new .38's whose specs mention the capability to shoot the +P rounds, but none for the 9mm

9/26/2008 10:37:25 AM

As far as I know, there aren't any semiautos that are +P or +P+ "rated."
However, some manufacturers state that it's a bad idea to shoot them and a few manufacturers say it will void the warrenty.

Depending on how many over pressure loads you shoot and what model the gun is, you may want to get a more powerful recoil spring.
Generally out of most guns I wouldn't worry about a couple hundred +P between regular recoil spring changes.

BTW, if anyone doesn't know, +P generally means up to 10% more pressure above SAAMI spec.
SAAMI has specs for +P for only a few calibers (9mm, 38 spl, 45 acp, 38 super).
Any +P in any other caliber may or may not be 10% more pressure.
I'd be cautious when buying +P in any caliber that doesn't have a SAAMI +P spec (ie 40S&W).

There's no SAAMI spec for +P+. All +P+ means is pressure is above +P. A few +P+ loads actually don't have any ballistic advantage over other +P, so look into it before you buy.

[Edited on September 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM. Reason : ]

9/26/2008 11:32:46 AM

Quote :

" I'd be cautious when buying +P in any caliber that doesn't have a SAAMI +P spec (ie 40S&W)."

yeah if anyone wants more power from .40s&w, corbon is your answer. but like most .40 s&w rounds, the recoil is much much worse. it'll stop a bear though.

9/26/2008 12:38:50 PM