Nooooooooo! Not rocks being thrown into windows! Anything but rocks being thrown through windows!

That's like, almost $200 worth of damage....oh, noooooo, make it stop, it's so horrible whyyyyyyyyyy?!?! Bahhhh, it's so senseless, whaaaa, goddamnit, somebody put a stop to this madness!

8/4/2014 12:02:53 AM

8/4/2014 12:36:46 AM

Do they have 18 holes?

8/4/2014 1:55:11 AM

per cent

8/4/2014 9:16:59 AM

Israeli official calls for concentration camps in Gaza
http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/141870/israeli-official-calls-for-concentration-camps-in-gaza

Quote :

"Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, Moshe Feiglin, has called for the use of concentration camps for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”"

Quote :

"In his letter, Feiglin urged Netanyahu to “turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians,” in reference to a Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed by in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel."

Quote :

"“Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem,” he said."

Nobody in Palestine is going to sign a "declaration of loyalty" to Israel. Israel knows that and that'll give them the full reason to exterminate innocent people under the guise of them being members of Hamas or Hamas-sympathizers.

[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 11:42 AM. Reason : ]

8/4/2014 11:37:59 AM

I asked before, but for those of you who think Israel is in the right, put yourself in a common palestinians shoes. What would you do if another country was occupying your country, had a huge military presence, wouldn't let you leave your country that isn't bigger than the size of Raleigh, and was bombing the shit out your neighborhood and had killed your family members and friends? Would you fight Hamas? Or would you fight Israel?

8/4/2014 11:46:04 AM

I sure as hell wouldn't fight Israel. Luke was able to take down the Galactic Empire, but this is no movie, and the small guys usually don't win. Plus I'll bet the farm the Palestinians don't have many midichlorians, so they can't really count on the force helping them much.

Hamas on the other hand, can stop launching rockets and stop the hostilities.

8/4/2014 11:51:16 AM

Israel is occupying Palestine illegally and commit illegal actions against them, their position is inherently offensive. Hamas actually did stop firing rockets for awhile, they even controlled more extreme elements and arrested those who fired rockets, but Israel did not stop illegal settlements or remove the blockade. The little guys often do win, but not by going toe-to-toe in a fair fight. You don't have to watch a movie, it's not like Afghanistan was a long time ago.

[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 11:59 AM. Reason : .]

8/4/2014 11:59:00 AM

^^So you'd really just throw up your hands and accept defeat? After your home was destroyed, your relatives and friends were killed, your country has been living under an embargo and blockade for years, you have no money to feed your family, you're not allowed to leave the war zone, foreign troops are running through your neighborhoods with guns and bombs are destroying houses all over the place? And you'd just accept it? Seriously, if the same thing happened to America, you'd just give up and welcome the occupying force? As an American, it seems like you'd get labeled as an unpatriotic coward who's rolling over to the enemy. I really have a hard time believing that you would accept this. I'd think you'd want to fight the occupying force.

Hamas can stop shooting missile, but Israel isn't going to stop occupying and embargoing the west bank.



[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 12:04 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 12:08 PM. Reason : ]

8/4/2014 11:59:19 AM

Quote :

"I sure as hell wouldn't fight Israel."

the hell you wouldn't. everybody here in 'Murica that's pro-gun would be calling to take up arms if an entity came and threatened their land/life/freedom.




[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 12:04 PM. Reason : sound familiar?]

8/4/2014 12:00:56 PM

we currently, today, probably at this very moment, have armed "patriot" groups patrolling the southwest because of illegal immigrants. imagine if those immigrants were kicking people out of their homes and taking over their ranches to build settlements, imagine if all of our borders were blocked and the calories in your food were literally counted before being let through, imagine if better-armed soldiers periodically launched air strikes to "mow the grass" and thin out the resistance when it got too loud. you would fucking fight.

8/4/2014 12:08:50 PM

I'll tell you what I wouldn't do:


I wouldn't throw rocks through a window. That's just unacceptable.

8/4/2014 12:34:05 PM

Quote :

".it was like Krystalnacht all over again."

meanwhile in Gaza...


and before someone criticizes me for being amti-semetic:
of course it's not okay to throw rocks through the windows of a business because the owner is Jewish. France is a terrible example of how to deal with a large young, disenfranchised, poor, largely male Muslim population who are angry at everything and its not surprising to me that it happened there

it's also shouldn't be unexpected that there is backlash towards Jews when you consider that Israel is officially a Jewish state who offers citizenship to any person who has a Jewish mother. that doesn't make it okay, but let's not go around pretending that it's Krystalnacht



[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 12:49 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2014 12:41:09 PM

Sorry I didn't have time to go into detail when I made the post.

Stones, hateful graffiti, death threats, burnings, theft... hundreds of Jewish businesses around the world now having to close down (hopefully only temporarily) and families being terrorized because of their religious affiliation.

This is a separate issue then the conflict in Gaza, and it doesn't begin to compare to the experience of Israelis or Palestinians, but people around the world are starting to treat individual Jews as if the entire thing is their fault.

I have personally not paid a single cent towards this conflict. I have not bulldozed any buildings, dropped any bombs, shot any bullets. So why is it that when I was passing through a downtown crossing last week, was I screamed at by people saying "Fuck the Jews," "Zionist bastard" "You're all going to burn for this" and so on and so on.

SO in response to a question asked on the last page, yes anti-Semitism has a lot to do with the world's response. It's why the death toll is nowhere near what it has been in Syria and yet no one seems to be talking about that the way they are about this.

8/4/2014 2:19:24 PM

Quote :

"So why is it that when I was passing through a downtown crossing last week, was I screamed at by people saying "Fuck the Jews," "Zionist bastard" "You're all going to burn for this" and so on and so on."

Probably because you were wearing a t-shirt that says "HEY I'M A JEW" OR "JEWISH PRIDE" or something along those lines. I mean, how else does a person pick out a random cross-walker for being a Jew?

[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 2:24 PM. Reason : ]

8/4/2014 2:22:39 PM

Yep, hating all Jews because of the actions of an elite few in the Israeli administration is wrong and is anti-semitic. But if you support or defend the actions of the Israeli administration, you're not exactly innocent. But that still doesn't justify being yelled at or having your business burned.

Not necessarily you, but many of the people who criticize anti-Israeli sentiment as anti-Semitic are the same people who swear up-and-down that all the hate for Obama has absolutely nothing to do with race (when some of it obviously does, just as some of the hate for Israel is fueled by hate for jews).

8/4/2014 2:28:19 PM

Quote :

"So why is it that when I was passing through a downtown crossing last week, was I screamed at by people saying "Fuck the Jews," "Zionist bastard" "You're all going to burn for this" and so on and so on."

Sounds like you're being collectively punished for the actions of a radical right-wing militant faction that purports to represent you. It's not fair, is it?



Look, hate crimes are real. Anti-semitism is ugly. But don't you think that the Israeli government is actually hurting you long term by continuing this offensive? Peaceful jews shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of the IDF. But a belligerent IDF doesn't help your cause. That's why it's important for you to be on the side of humanity.

[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 2:40 PM. Reason : ]

8/4/2014 2:34:02 PM

2 weeks ago I was in Charlotte for a wedding, was walking around downtown with my girlfriend (who is Israeli) and we heard a large commotion. We walked up thinking it was a Pride thing, because it was the same week of as several Pride parades in major cities and we knew Amendment 1 was under review. But when we got close enough o hear what was being yelled we both froze and were scared to talk a step in any direction. I wear a yarmulke and every eye was on me. It was terrifying. Then a week later, every single one of my coworkers received a threat (we work at a Jewishly-run organization) via e-mail saying "A year from now you won't exist, your congregation will be replaced by a glorious mosque, and Jews will be wiped from the face of the earth, for it is the will of Allah."

Yesterday I was walking down the street in a small town in California. A woman was standing alone on a street corner holding a cardboard sign that said "Free Palestine.". When I passed by her, she said, "Would you like to talk about it?". So we talked, had a great, civil conversation expressing our viewpoints and providing sympathy for the other.

The first two situations made me scared and angry. The third made me feel more open to ideas and change.

8/4/2014 2:41:23 PM

I don't think anyone ITT is going to say that it's okay to hate you simply because of your yarmulke, because that's wrong. I think some people here don't like you because of your defense of the IDF. I think religion is silly, but if you want to practice it, go for it. As long as you're not hurting anyone.

8/4/2014 2:51:48 PM

bdmazur, are you equally angry when illegal settlers throw rocks at Palestinians while guarded by the IDF?

[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 2:56 PM. Reason : because those Palestinians probably felt pretty angry too]

8/4/2014 2:56:15 PM

Quote :

"The first two situations made me scared and angry. "

Were you scared and angry because you were being collectively punished for the actions of the Israeli regime and IDF?

Quote :

"The third made me feel more open to ideas and change."

So are you suggesting that retaliation and collectively punishing a group of people may not be the best course of action to settle differences?

8/4/2014 3:27:43 PM

I was scared because I thought I was about to have a mob trample me.

I'm not ok with collective punishment. Everyone seems to think that if you're ok with one thing Israel does, you must agree with everything they do.

My stance is the Israeli government and military has taken it too far but they can't do nothing either. The only 2 things I hear from people is 1) Israel should ignore them because they aren't a real that or 2) Israel should annihilate them. I don't agree with either.

8/4/2014 4:10:55 PM

There's also the option of lifting the siege and giving them full independence of their land, sea, and air.

Do you think this government is seriously interested in ever giving up control of Gaza?

8/4/2014 4:17:46 PM

Quote :

"There's also the option of lifting the siege and giving them full independence of their land, sea, and air. "

The problem is that full independence likely means an escalation of attacks by Hamas. These would probably eventually die down, but at the cost of many Israeli lives.

It's a difficult proposition, to say the least, to trade some Israeli lives in the short term, for the possibility of "peace" years from now.

8/4/2014 4:25:19 PM

^this

8/4/2014 4:27:39 PM

If you don't lift the siege....the rockets will certainly continue. That much I can guarantee you.

They'll continue into they have independence, or until the entire strip is wiped out. Which one do you think the current government is more likely to commit to?

8/4/2014 4:33:19 PM

^I would love to see the IDF do a full disengagement and all the ports reopen and for Gaza to be able to build an airport.

But if the rockets keep coming at that point, and better weaponry because of the ports being open and people coming in and out unchecked, then what should Israel do at that point?

In other news:
http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

Quote :

"Captured Hamas Combat Manual Explains Benefits of Human Shields"

8/4/2014 4:39:43 PM

Gaza had an airport....


...But then Israel bombed it.










"Hey, look everyone, we've got an airpo............awwww, it's gone."




http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/articles/2014/7/25/dashed-dreams-howgazasshortlivedairportnevertookoff.html


[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 5:08 PM. Reason : ]

8/4/2014 4:45:08 PM

The rational approach is to accept the loss of some Israeli lives to increase the chance of long term peace.

The nationalist approach is that Israeli lives are worth more, and thousands of innocent Palestinians deserve to die to keep Israeli deaths to a few dozen a year.

The rational approach for Hamas is to stop firing rockets, and keep negotiating to remove their apartheid status.

The nationalist approach for the Palestinians is to believe the land is their birth right, and they should be in charge even if it means attempting to destroy Israel.

Seems like both sides are choosing to be nationalist.

8/4/2014 5:36:15 PM

Yes. But only one side has the capacity to see through that fervent nationalism. To say that both sides are guilty is to grossly understate just how asymmetrical this conflict has become.

The constant refrain is to point to the Hamas charter, and say, "they want to wipe Israel off the map!" But the exact opposite is currently happening. Gaza is being wiped off the map right now.

8/4/2014 5:40:32 PM

We've seen Hamas stop rocket attacks and Israel didn't do the things they were supposed to

8/4/2014 6:57:08 PM

At what point did the rockets stop? Even when a ceasefire was supposed to be on there were rocket attacks.

We saw Israel pull out of Gaza in 2005 and that still didn't stop it.

[Edited on August 4, 2014 at 7:21 PM. Reason : -]

8/4/2014 7:20:47 PM

We've seen the opposite, too.

Again, only villains here ( referring to the factions, not joe gazan who just gets fucked by both sides.)

8/4/2014 7:24:57 PM

^^ Can you please stop saying that there was a pull-out in 2005? It's very much a lie by omission. You know damn well that the IDF still controlled the borders, sea, airspace, imports-exports.

That's not full disengagement. And the fact that you keep repeatedly and intentionally ignoring this HUGE detail leads me to believe that you don't really think that Gazans should be allowed to govern themselves.

8/4/2014 7:35:32 PM

I mean, Israel *did* pull out of Gaza in 2005. That's a fact.

8/4/2014 8:19:19 PM

^ its like you completely missed the 2nd half of ^^'s post.

8/4/2014 8:52:08 PM

I read the post, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel pulled it's military and settlers out of Gaza in 2005 *

*(all the biased add-ons pro-withdraw and anti-withdraw people wanna add)

Do you people want him to write a Wikipedia post with all of those points anytime he refers to that event?

8/4/2014 8:55:39 PM

I don't need him to do all that. I just want him to stop citing that example as proof that Gaza can't be left to its own devices. They've been under occupation for ages. The limited disengagement in 2005 was not some failed experiment in sovereignty. They've never been given the chance to be fully independent, and they probably never will be given that chance.

He keeps suggesting that Israel gave Gaza a chance at independence, and that they fucked it up by choosing to destroy Israel rather than building up their own civilization, and that's a gross mis-characterization of the facts.

8/4/2014 9:24:02 PM

Quote :

" But if you support or defend the actions of the Israeli administration, you're not exactly innocent."

It's telling that you don't apply the same logic towards supporters of Hamas.

8/4/2014 11:17:34 PM

Quote :

"I agree with this as well, but probably not for the same reason you do. If both sides truly want a peace deal and an independent Palestinian state, however, both sides need to acknowledge one another. The problem, as I see it, is that Hamas is a right-wing militant group. There's no denying that. But the Likud party is also a right-wing group, and their military-use is wildly lopsided. This gets ignored way too much. They have no interest in an independent Palestinian state. And honestly, the right-wing in Israel is willing to tolerate the balsawood-shit-stick rockets flying into their southern towns from time to time, because it gives them a reason to go in and beat the shit of Gazan's from time to time. And it's no coincidence that those leaders then see a bump in their approval ratings (Netanyahu is up to over 80%, last time I checked). Powerful leaders within the Israeli government and military view regular involvement in Gaza as "cutting the grass." They have no long term solution. And they certainly don't have a solution that involves Palestinian statehood. So even as this conflict winds down, we'll be back here in about two years, re-living this exact same scenario. The impetus to this latest round of violence was supposedly the abduction of three Israeli teens. They were killed (and that's awful), but the immediate blaming of Hamas was predictable, as was the disproportionate response and military raid. "

I think that there's very little chance of a deal as long as Hamas is running things on the Palestinian side. A deal between Hamas and a Likud-controlled Israel is probably even less likely.

I don't really fault Israel for disproportionately ripping the shit out of Gaza when they're provoked. That isn't my beef with them; I'd do the same thing, probably with even greater severity. I don't believe in fair fights of any kind if I have the means to make it disproportionate. On the flip side, I wouldn't leave the Palestinians in such an untenable position to begin with. In short, I'd offer carrots of reasonable compromise, but the looming stick in the background would amount to me absolutely buttfucking their national souls.

Quote :

"Politically, yes. In reality, no."

Right, that's what I mean. I was referring to the two (plus their subsets) political sides, not Joe Schmoe on the street in Gaza. They are, as you said, most certainly not villains (although I question their election and support of Hamas).

Quote :

"But, just curious, has your position changed during this latest round of conflict? I suspect that it has. Just wondering."

Not really. My position is pretty constant: The Israelis and Palestinians are about equally right/wrong in terms of what they want. Hamas, specifically, is worse in terms of tactics in terms of how they approach the situation. The way Hamas uses human shields is despicable, and while neither side is perfect, I think that they are worse about fucking up compromises and olive branches when they're offered.

8/4/2014 11:26:39 PM

Quote :

"Can you please stop saying that there was a pull-out in 2005? It's very much a lie by omission. You know damn well that the IDF still controlled the borders, sea, airspace, imports-exports. That's not full disengagement. And the fact that you keep repeatedly and intentionally ignoring this HUGE detail leads me to believe that you don't really think that Gazans should be allowed to govern themselves."

The rest would have come. It was all part of the plan. But there wasn't enough time to move all those pieces before the bombs started going off again and Palestine was at war with itself.

You want he details? The disengagement was approved by the government in June 2004 but didn't start being enacted until August 2005 because they wanted to take the time to do it right (unlike the way the British and good ol' USA pack up and leave things a mess). Israel paid $870 million in compensation for Jews in Gaza who had to resettle, a major economic commitment. Then Hamas and Fatah were fighting each other until June 2006, so it was especially unsafe to release any type of control with no one actually being in charge of the government. By the time Hamas took full power, they were already on the "blame Israel for everything" campaign and the rocket attacks started almost immediately, and have not stopped since. dtownral seems to remember otherwise, just waiting to hear when that was supposed to have been.

8/5/2014 1:06:03 AM

Yep, that pretty much summarizes my view. I'm neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinian. I'm about as sympathetic/accusatory to/of the Palestinians as I am to/of the Israelis, but I have a decidedly negative view of Hamas, and much more due to their political/strategic level actions than due to their tactical actions (i.e., their screwing away deals pisses me off more than their lobbing rockets. I don't like indiscriminately lobbing rockets or their targeting of civilians, but I get that their side is in an untenable position, and without a lot of viable military options.

8/5/2014 1:20:03 AM

8/5/2014 2:06:59 AM

Quote :

"The rest would have come. It was all part of the plan"

lololololololol.....


...the plan has been, and always will be, to undermine efforts for Palestinian statehood. Don't get it twisted.

Hamas' was supported by Israel in the 80's as a way of undermining the PLO. Israel tolerated their religious fundamentalism because the it hurt Fatah. They tolerated this division because in-fighting always helps the occupying power. Now that they are in control of Gaza, they don't like them so much. (Side note: A major international power's intelligence agency supporting a radical in order to undermine another foe, only to later have that radical become the new foe.... that.... sounds.... vaguely familiar....)


Look, bd.. Has it not struck you as peculiar that this latest flare-up in this conflict comes right after Fatah and Hamas made strides toward a unity government?

Quote :

"Israel, which suspended peace negotiations in April when a surprise reconciliation deal was signed opening the way to the appointment of the new government, reacted angrily to the deal. The prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, chairing a security cabinet following the signing, told ministers: "Today, Abu Mazen [as President Mahmoud Abbas is known] said yes to terrorism and no to peace." The meeting voted to authorise Netanyahu to impose unspecified sanctions against the Palestinian Authority, adding that it would now hold the Palestinian Authority "responsible" for any attacks originating from the Gaza Strip..."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/02/palestinian-unity-government-sworn-in-fatah-hamas


That was in June. Gaza was invaded last month. Do the math, man. Do you seriously think this entire war started as a response to the killing of three Israeli teens? Seriously, man? Do you think that? You think Benjamin Netanyahu, a man who said this:

Quote :

"There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan"

Is interested in an independent Palestinian state? Man....wise up. Seriously.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/benjamin-netanyahu-palest_n_5598997.html


---------------


Oh, and by the way, don't do this:

Quote :

"http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/"

Nobody with a college diploma should ever use the official blog of an army as a source for reliable information regarding said army.


USA Army blog: The Iraq war went great!
CIA blog: Drones strikes only kill terrorists!
NSA blog: We only spy on bad guys!

Do you see how stupid that is? Please, do yourself a favor, and stop posting IDF propaganda.

8/5/2014 3:36:31 AM

Jesus man, calm the fuck down.

[Edited on August 5, 2014 at 9:37 AM. Reason : ^^ my favorite part of that is "the middle east will again be peaceful" LOL]

8/5/2014 9:36:12 AM

^^I'll take you for your word then. Now I can disregard whatever the White House tells me, since it came from the White House.

8/5/2014 10:21:01 AM

He said the army, which is a little more prone to spreading propaganda. Although you'd should probably take everything the White House tells you with a grain of salt and realize that they often "spin" the facts too. I'm sure you already knew that though.

8/5/2014 10:26:41 AM

The problem with putting israel in the us is that wed all go to hell because god wouldnt be able to figure out how to save us if the temple isnt built on the correct coordinates

8/5/2014 10:30:34 AM

And the former residents of Kansas would have to be rounded up into ghettos. Only a matter of time before they start launching rockets into Topeka and using farming tractors for terrorist rampages.

We gave $250million to Israel today. The emergency senate vote was 100-0. Democracy works.

8/5/2014 10:40:13 AM

Quote :

"Look, bd.. Has it not struck you as peculiar that this latest flare-up in this conflict comes right after Fatah and Hamas made strides toward a unity government?"

this is what this is all about, Israel can not tolerate a unified Palestine. they have not in the past, and will continue to not allow it.


---

Simply throwing your hands up and saying "everyone is a villain" is some closed-minded, black-and-white, retarded bullshit. There are reasonable people on both sides, even in Hamas. In fact, what Hamas is asking for is reasonable. Let's review their terms:

Lifting the siege:
The UN has even called for this since it is illegal under international law

Allow construction of a seaport or sea crossings with UN supervision and revitalized industrial zones:
This is not only reasonable, Israel has already agreed to it in the Agreement of Movement and Access (AMA).

Allow movement of goods between Gaza and the West Bank:
Already also stipulated in the AMA

Allow fisherman to fish up to 12 miles offshore:
This is less than what was already agreed upon in the '94 Oslo Agreements yet fisherman regularly have their boats and nets confiscated. Fisherman in Gaza are only allowed to fish in areas near shore that have been over-fished, and even that is very risky for them. When you control everything that goes through their borders, having access to fish is important as an industry and as a food staple.

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border and the Internationalization of the Rafah Crossing and its placement under international supervision:
Reasonable, international supervision should already be implemented here

Israel of course can not agree to these things because they will not give up control of the West Bank nor will they allow a Palestine to form a unified government. The terms of Hamas are reasonable and most have already been agreed to or called on by the UN, the re-release of prisoners freed in the Gilad Shalit deal is really the only new items and I would imagine could be negotiable if the other items are met. But the other items will not be met, Israel will not lift the siege and they will not relinquish control and allow a unified Palestine to exist.

There have been periods of time when Palestine has stopped rocket attacks and Hamas has arrested the few that continued them, that is a fact. Despite this, Israel has never held it's side of the multiple agreements nor have the accepted the UN's direction that their siege is illegal.

8/5/2014 10:44:22 AM