23 pages of goodness.

10/27/2011 11:18:24 PM

^Well, except for that whole "NC State could be 5th in our division" mess.

But to get back to V0LC0M's point, I agree that even though it's unrealistic to expect these guys to be right there in the second or third slot after the past few seasons, the parts are all there to field a team in the top 5 and even playing competitive games against those top 2 and 3 teams.

Hell, even Sidney was able to beat Carolina in '07. No reason why Gottfried with a much more talented roster (albeit, untrained and undisciplined from the past staff) can't at least be competitive. If we go through the Tobacco Road contests without completely embarrassing ourselves, I'll consider it an improvement.

10/28/2011 10:11:45 AM

what would you define as embarrassing ourselves?

10/28/2011 11:50:18 AM

winning less than 50% of all Tobacco Road games (home and away total), along one or more blowout losses to said Tobacco Road schools is embarrasing.

bascially, being chronically non-succesful in your own neghborhood is embarassing.

10/28/2011 12:23:00 PM

Quote :

"winning less than 50% of all Tobacco Road games (home and away total), along one or more blowout losses to said Tobacco Road schools is embarrasing."

Winning over 50% of our Tobaccos Road games with Duke and UNC consistently in the top 10 is pretty difficult....

10/28/2011 12:32:25 PM

A school with two national championships being 9th in the ACC is embarrassing.

10/28/2011 12:40:44 PM

^^ at some point that has to not be an excuse anymore. we're in a tough neighborhood, we get it. at some point we need to be relevant again. we'll get there, or we'll die trying..

10/28/2011 12:52:07 PM

One point of perspective-- while our all-time records against duke/unc seem pretty bad, they are better than every other ACC team.

in other words, we suck less!

10/28/2011 1:51:49 PM

http://youtu.be/ELVfDX32ms0

lol

10/28/2011 3:45:32 PM

RED SOCKS

+eleventy

10/28/2011 3:47:05 PM

should've gone with a double windsor

10/28/2011 8:25:33 PM

Did he poot on the treadmill?

10/28/2011 9:28:31 PM

Quote :

"A school with two national championships being 9th in the ACC is embarrassing."

NCStatePride, man, you weren't even born when we won our last championship. I didn't even know NC State existed. The world/school has clearly changed since then. I think it's a little unfair to expect another championship again just because we've had two in the lifetime of the school. It takes a lot more than that.

Just think about this: The incoming coach was probably one of the harshest critics of the team when he assessed it. When does that ever happen...in any sport?

You know why he said that? Because he knew people (maybe you are one of them) were going to have stratospherically high expectations, and he needed to let people know he understood the problems and was working them and to not expect winning a national championship his first season (even Roy "Droopy" Williams and Joe Girardi needed two years).

[Edited on October 28, 2011 at 10:13 PM. Reason : spaced out]

10/28/2011 10:13:28 PM

Quote :

"When does that ever happen...in any sport?"

all the damn time.

10/28/2011 11:10:30 PM

kdogg(c), I understand your point, and its not necessarily an uncommon one, but I would point to the reason why it has been so long since NC State was nationally relevant. NC State was last sitting on top of the conference back in 1989 before the onslaught of the UNC School System's involvement in NC State. Valvano and then Chancellor Poulton invited the NCAA to investigate the NC State basketball program because of the several allegations that a book by Peter Golenbock levied on NC State. The NCAA came down and found absolutely no NCAA infractions, though did note that it appeared that a player had sold a pair of shoes and another had sold a pair of tickets, failing to note that they were major NCAA infractions due to the circumstances and proof found.

What I'm getting at is the NC State essentially did nothing wrong, then was told by the fucking UNC School System that we "hadn't violated the law, but the 'spirit' of the law", so we begun our tailspin into obscurity. No one is claiming that because of our national championships we automatically deserve a bid to the NCAA tourney. What I am claiming, and you'll find many others claiming, is that NC State was perfectly capable of doing it before and we're capable of doing it again. What is unreasonable is to assume that just because of some self-imposed restrictions, with help from the UNC School System, we can never expect to be a respectable program again.

10/31/2011 8:20:19 AM

I wanted to reply to this, as well...

Quote :

"You know why he said that? Because he knew people (maybe you are one of them) were going to have stratospherically high expectations, and he needed to let people know he understood the problems and was working them and to not expect winning a national championship his first season (even Roy "Droopy" Williams and Joe Girardi needed two years)."

Please point out to me anywhere I said Mark Gottfried should be winning us a national championship EVER, much less the first season. Please point to me anywhere where a major blogger or NC State sports community has passed any such expectations on Gottfried and his staff. Yeah, I think he's capable of really great things (Hell, he Alabama, the football-iest of football schools, ranked #1 in the nation at one time), but I have not seen anyone suggest that if he doesn't have us immediately in the top 2 running for the ACC title this year that we will be disappointed. I don't know if you're getting me confused with someone, or just trying to sound tough and/or knowledgable, but either way you're off base here.

10/31/2011 8:23:47 AM

10/31/2011 9:54:56 AM

Quote :

"http://youtu.be/ELVfDX32ms0"

Sleeping on the couch at the office instead of at home after being kicked out of the house and bed by the wifey? I guess old habits die hard.

10/31/2011 9:59:26 AM

I just want a lil R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I think we can get it and earn it this year.


III

10/31/2011 9:59:44 AM

NCStatePride, it's not necessarily that people expect him to do completely awesome things out the gate.

It's that, in our experience with NC State coaches, they only get a few seasons. What starts as completely understandable expectations quickly turns into "well, he's not putting us at the top of the ACC like we wanted, and it's year four... Time to hit the reset button, AGAIN."

People expect our teams to rise up out of the toilet like a big wolf phoenix, and no one seems to realize that it takes considerably more time than that to consistently win at a high level.

10/31/2011 10:23:03 AM

AstralEngine, I'm not sure where you are getting that we "set unreasonable expectations on a coach" from. The fact that you are saying "year four" gives me the feeling that you are making a comment based on your feelings of our football team or that you wanted Lowe to stick around because our basketball coaches stick around a lot longer than 4 years. Hell, Les Robinson stuck around for 6 years.

Actually, lets test your "we get a few seasons in then set unreasonable expectations" theory. Herb Sendek came in for the 1996-97 season. His first year's record was 17-15 (4-12 in the ACC). Second year was 17-15 (5-11 in the ACC). The next 4 years were 6-10, 6-10, and 5-11 in the ACC, including a 13-16 record overall in his fifth year. So by your standard, we threw him out on the street, right? No, we gave him 5 more seasons. He did make it to the Sweet Sixteen in 2005, but the next season he still went 10-6 in the ACC and only barely exceeded the previous year's overall record through making it to the second round in the NCAA tournament. After proving that Herb Sendek could "make the tourney" in '01-'02, we gave him 5 seasons to show improvement. He didn't improve, he stayed the same, so we fired him.

Sounds to me like we give a guy 10 years because he showed "a little improvement", then pushed him out when we found out he couldn't continue to succeed. So, who are you point to as an example that we give a coach 4 years, then show him the door when we aren't perennial champions? Are you actually going to attempt to argue that Lowe just needed more time and that our expectations of being higher than 9th in the ACC was unreasonable for a fifth year coach?

10/31/2011 11:38:15 AM

I'm not going to read your post because you didn't bold any words.

10/31/2011 11:41:46 AM

I don't read any post that's addressed to someone else. Seems like a violation of privacy.

10/31/2011 11:43:23 AM

Coach has a nice jump shot +2

10/31/2011 11:48:16 AM

^, ^^ Don't worry, it's not a very good topic of discussion.

---

If you guys haven't you should read some of the articles out there on Gottfried's coaching staff. Lutz is a pretty amazing coach in-and-of himself, and Moxley is one of the nation's top recruiters.

10/31/2011 11:51:27 AM

Quote :

"[Herb Sendek] didn't improve, he stayed the same, so we fired him."

10/31/2011 12:02:02 PM

Sure, Sendek got ten years and Amato got nine. But people, the lunatic fans, were calling for their heads for years before the administration finally got to them. Amato had... Three bad seasons between losing Phillip Rivers and being shown the door? Lowe needed to go, he did, but people were calling for him to get fired in year three. TOB took us to 9-4 last year for the first time in almost a decade, and now people want him to get fired, too.

It's like the fan base doesn't seem to understand that there is an up and down to success, especially if you're not at the top. We get coaches who get some ups, but at the first sign of a string of downs, people start calling for their heads.

10/31/2011 12:06:55 PM

Quote :

"The incoming coach was probably one of the harshest critics of the team when he assessed it. When does that ever happen...in any sport?"

It happens all the time. ALL THE TIME.

Gottfried said those things because he had no idea what to expect from the team and he didn't want people hyping his job or the team before he has had a chance to look at it and work with it thoroughly. He has said in multiple interviews since then that he believes the team has taken major strides and is very close to looking like an NCAA tourny team. Whether that happens or not, can't be predicted by anyone at this point. Gottfried knows what he's doing and he's being moderately quiet (which he should).

With the state of the ACC being as poor as it was last year, why is it unreasonable to expect a 5th rank at the end of the season? We've lost Javi Gonzalez, THANK GOD, who did more damage than he did help. We've lost a coach who was a great person but absolutely could not discipline his players let alone coach them. Gottfried's work ethic and training are MILES apart from Sidney. Look at Richard Howell's physical changes this year and tell me that Gottfried doesn't know what he's doing. These guys will be well conditioned if nothing else. There were so many problems last year, that it is almost impossible to say this will fix that and this person will change this on our team. However, from what I've seen and the attitude that Gottfried brings to the table, I just don't see how we could be worse than last year. I think it is entirely possible for us to finish in the top 5 or 6.

Quote :

"Final 2010-2011 Standings School / Conference / Overall North Carolina........14-2 / 29-8 Duke....................13-3 / 32-5 Florida State.........11-5 / 23-11 Clemson................9-7 / 22-12 Boston College........9-7 / 21-13 Virginia Tech..........9-7 / 22-12 Maryland...............7-9 / 19-14 Virginia..................7-9 / 16-15 Miami....................6-10 / 21-15 NC State...............5-11 / 15-16 Georgia Tech.........5-11 / 13-18 Wake Forest..........1-15 / 8-24"

Other than UNC and Duke locking the top 2 spots, I honestly don't see another team being a dominant 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. FSU has some depth returning so they will probably be up there. The same could be said about Clemson. Other than that, none of these teams are definites. 2 wins separated 5 teams last year.






[Edited on October 31, 2011 at 12:17 PM. Reason : .]

10/31/2011 12:07:31 PM

TWW Sports Talk is becoming the new Pack Pride

10/31/2011 12:23:41 PM

Quote :

"[Herb Sendek] didn't improve, he stayed the same, so we fired him."

you lost your credibility right there...

10/31/2011 12:23:54 PM

that's pretty harsh of javi.

10/31/2011 12:24:48 PM

yup

the guy just wasn't a smart player

Always committed stupid pointless fouls at the worst possible times
Turnovers
Bad passes


He was just not a good a point guard. Maybe that had more to do with Lowe than Javi but he just seemed to constantly make the same mistakes over and over again.

[Edited on October 31, 2011 at 12:33 PM. Reason : .]

10/31/2011 12:24:58 PM

he had some really good games, and actually won us a handful of games, mixed in with his bad games and silly mistakes.

imo, one of lowe's biggest downfalls was never landing a decent pg recruit (until harrow and then lewis). that might have made a substantial difference in the team over the last 4 years.

[Edited on October 31, 2011 at 12:53 PM. Reason : ]

10/31/2011 12:52:38 PM

his bad games were more plentiful than his good ones


I'm seriously not being sarcastic when I say this, but what game(s) did he win for us?

10/31/2011 12:54:35 PM

^i'm with you on that.

i don't recall which games. but i know he went off a handful of games. and i seem to remember him draining a buzzer-beater at least once.

10/31/2011 12:59:21 PM

ncwolfpack, BigDave41, Sendek's last five years he was 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 6th, 4th in the ACC meaning that he spent all of his final 5 years trailing Duke and Carolina. He also exited the NCAA tourney his last 5 years in the first or second round every year except one. His last three seasons he were 21-20, 21-14, and 22-10. Sounds like a coach that reached a level of moderate respectability then didn't improve so we pushed him out.

I'm not going to get hung up on the word "fired" because any way you look at it, he was "pressured" to leave. You can post emoticons or make comments if you want, but those are his results... continual mediocrity.

10/31/2011 1:00:30 PM

what fool said we fired herb?

10/31/2011 1:01:24 PM

Quote :

"imo, one of lowe's biggest downfalls was never landing a decent pg recruit (until harrow and then lewis). that might have made a substantial difference in the team over the last 4 years. "

Not to mention the general attitude of the team. When he landed Harrow, it's pretty well known that by that point the team didn't train or practice as diligently as Herb Sendek's team had and certainly not as much as Gottfried has been running them.

The recruiting was easy to see on the surface, but looking back and finding out more about the Lowe program, it sounds more like Lowe's downfall was the slack ship he ran.

10/31/2011 1:02:56 PM

Quote :

"one of lowe's biggest downfalls was never landing a decent pg recruit (until harrow and then lewis)"

imo lack of player development was his biggest downfall. when you're bringing back a good core of talent plus a Top 10 recruiting class and still sucking there's a problem.

10/31/2011 1:04:15 PM

i'm just saying, things might have been different if lowe had landed a big-time pg in his 1st or 2nd year, instead of having to start javi for 4 years.

10/31/2011 1:07:00 PM

he had Atsur who was a hell of a player and still couldn't do anything

Quote :

"Lowe's downfall was the slack ship he ran."

10/31/2011 1:09:31 PM

Quote :

"what fool said we fired herb?"

I used the word "fired", but I think it's pretty common knowledge now that Sendek just "left the position"... after the N&O was reporting that his family was getting death-threats from the NC State fanbase. Whatever...

By the way, more proof of the plateau that Sendek reached, the final seeds that he earned in the NCAA tournament were 7th (2002), 9th (2003), 3rd (2004), 10th (2005), and 10th (2006). He had one flash-in-the-pan year where he enters the NCAA tournament 20-9 and do a real good job capitalizing on it by getting knocked out in the second round by Vandy. I'll say it again with fairly high confidence that the numbers support the claim: Herb Sendek "was encouraged to leave" because he had hit a plateau and counted improve.

10/31/2011 1:11:53 PM

Quote :

"I'm seriously not being sarcastic when I say this, but what game(s) did he win for us?"

Duke. You seriously don't remember him beating Duke? Maybe you should just sit the rest of this thread out.

[Edited on October 31, 2011 at 1:37 PM. Reason : V He's talking about Javi.]

10/31/2011 1:19:53 PM

^If you read his post, it looks like he was talking about Sendek, not Lowe. Besides, I don't think beating one top 5 team is really "notable accomplishment" worthy. Sendek even upset some big programs during his tenure. If I'm not mistake, V0LC0M is referring to the fact that Sendek never made it to the final four despite going to the NCAA tournament for 5 years running. He never won an NIT tourney (or made it to the championship game) even though he went there 4 times, and despite making it to the ACC championship game 3 times (once his first season and twice in '01 and '02), he never won an ACC title.

...therefore, he didn't win anything. The fact that Lowe never even got that close to "winning anything" and that you have to bring up a regular season game as proof that he "won something" should be a telling fact of exactly where Lowe brought us.

10/31/2011 1:33:17 PM

he's talking about javi, not sendek.

Quote :

"he had Atsur who was a hell of a player and still couldn't do anything"

That season wasn't terrible for Lowe's first year. And we did beat a #3 UNC, #18 VT, #25 VT. And a #21 Duke and #24 Virginia to make it to the ACC Final.

Atsur was a good, seasoned player, but he really wasn't a great point guard.

[Edited on October 31, 2011 at 2:09 PM. Reason : didn't we only have 6 or 7 scholarship players that year?]

10/31/2011 1:49:54 PM

^Thanks for the clarification and while we're on it, I read your comment about the "solid PG" and to an extent I agree. If Lowe had a Harrow waiting immediately after Atsur, we could have had some better showings, but the "team" dynamic was SO BAD that it's hard to speculate on how things would have been different. Remember when Hickson was at State and everyone just stood around and watched him play?

10/31/2011 2:06:41 PM

Quote :

"It is an honor to have my pic on the wall alongside former pres george w bush at Lee's tailors in #Raleighwood "

-1,000

[Edited on October 31, 2011 at 10:23 PM. Reason : was kind of worried about that]

10/31/2011 10:23:20 PM

10/31/2011 10:24:01 PM

I, too, hate when people call it Raleighwood

10/31/2011 10:28:11 PM

We played all last season without a healthy, in condition Tracy Smith...which should make his loss a bit more manageable. I for one am not expecting big things this season, but I am expecting some growing pains, better conditioning/toughness, and some improvement. Hopefully we see more consistent play out of Leslie and Howell as well.

I think the biggest X factor will be our backcourt play, particularly our depth and lack of experienced or secondary ballhandlers. We could see CJ Williams get more minutes at the 2 and may be better in the UCLA offense when he gets back, but it isn't like he is going to bring the ball up the court (I'm not sure we can rely on anyone outside of Brown and Johnson to do that).

10/31/2011 10:54:41 PM