Sounds like a real conundrum

8/6/2021 9:16:49 PM

I’d have 2400 less in cc debt had i just not paid while this whole “moratorium” thing keeps going. But no I’m one of the responsible ppl /republican talking point

8/6/2021 9:27:26 PM

Sounds like a poor financial decision you made.

8/6/2021 10:09:53 PM

Would really suck if someone got something that you didn't sounds terrible

8/6/2021 11:29:47 PM

Afghanistan is a disaster for Biden

8/15/2021 11:12:42 AM

Interesting how Trump wanted to pull out of there and people lost their collective shit. Biden does it and it ends up being a disaster.

It would have been a disaster had Trump pulled out. I'm conflicted on the topic, given my lack of insider intel. I feel like we abandoned the Afghan people, but at the same time, after 20 years there, they should have been able to hold their own for more than 2 weeks.

I just wonder why they pulled out now instead of waiting until their fighting season was over.

8/15/2021 11:49:32 AM

^ I’m in the same boat as you I think. Without knowing what was actually done, we’ve been talking about pullout since Obama, it’s hard to believe there wasn’t a plan the Afghanis weren’t aware of after all this time. This would have been the outcome no matter who was president now.

Seems like such a huge waste of time money and lives on all sides. I do hope we try to continue diplomatic efforts, with the Taliban or whoever, to keep building schools and infrastructure in Afghanistan.

8/15/2021 12:05:24 PM

https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1426830942874767366?s=21

Does seem like whoever the Biden admin was listening to was completely and utterly wrong about the capabilities of the Taliban.

8/15/2021 12:12:05 PM

For posterity

“The Taliban is not the North Vietnamese army. They’re not remotely comparable in terms of capability. There will to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of the embassy from Afghanistan. It is not at all comparable.”

President Joe Biden, July 8 2021

8/15/2021 1:03:18 PM

The "abandoned the people" narrative isnt really backed up by all these cities falling without a fight. The US backed government and military were hopelessly corrupt

Getting out of Afghanistan was one Trump's few good "ideas". The optics are unfortunately quite bad but what were the options? We've been there 20 years and obviously accomplished almost nothing.

8/15/2021 1:34:34 PM

Photo with helicopter doesn't show people being lifted off embassy roof.

8/15/2021 1:57:21 PM

Biden/Trump/Obama/Bush Jr. all deserve blame, and I don't want to get into assigning percentages because it changes nothing.

Not at all surprised that it happened so quickly, and it's annoying to hear some of the excuses, but it's also annoying to act like there was ever going to be a pro-western stable government in a place like Afghanistan.

Scalding hot take alert: let China bilk/drain their mineral resources all they want. Both China and Islamic states share collectivist values, and that type of relationship could actually provide a bit of stability in the region (at least in the short term), but heads will inevitably roll once China's anti-religious/atheist stance clashes with militant jihadism.

8/15/2021 4:59:10 PM

^^

Yeah most ppl support pull out, most ppl knew this could end badly, I don’t think anyone would know it would happen so quickly. How does 2 trillion dollars spent not buy us more time?

I guess this is why ppl oppose wars. Wasteful, costly, and of questionable use. We should be avoiding all wars and we should be finding diplomatic solutions. If anything this highlights the importance of the Iran nuclear deal. It was a monumental accomplishment that needs to be rebuilt.

8/15/2021 5:01:22 PM

Depressing but realistic thread
https://twitter.com/LauraJedeed/status/1426689324284841987?s=19

Quote :

"Boy howdy am I having a lot of feelings about Afghanistan today I deployed there twice--once in 2008 and once in 2009-10 It was already obvious that the Taliban would sweep through the very instant we left And here we are today"

8/15/2021 7:06:05 PM

Why were some people thinking it would take months or weeks? I'm genuinely curious...

8/15/2021 7:13:16 PM

I would have assumed after 20 years and trillions of dollars, there would be “stuff” setup to stop this outcome… how did we have all those bombs and drones and civilian casualties and the Taliban still has an apparently well equipped and organized army?

8/15/2021 8:33:03 PM

^ that's a great point, but in turn, after 20 years, one would have hoped/thought that the citizens of Afghanistan would have utilized the resources we tried to "give" them to transition into an actual democracy...

Either way, I can't say I know enough about the conflict to really offer up much other than the fact that we never should have been there in the first place, it was a complete waste of time and energy, and the outcome comes as no surprise to me whatsoever.

8/15/2021 8:50:04 PM

Quote :

"I do hope we try to continue diplomatic efforts, with the Taliban or whoever, to keep building schools and infrastructure in Afghanistan."

haha, yeah right. We are not about to recognize the Taliban and give them legitimacy, or funnel money to them, and they are not about to build schools that conform even remotely to anything we would fund and put our name on.

[Edited on August 16, 2021 at 1:30 AM. Reason : sounds like the Taliban are paying off military commanders]

8/16/2021 1:07:53 AM

Quote :

"Biden/Trump/Obama/Bush Jr. all deserve blame, and I don't want to get into assigning percentages because it changes nothing. Not at all surprised that it happened so quickly, and it's annoying to hear some of the excuses, but it's also annoying to act like there was ever going to be a pro-western stable government in a place like Afghanistan. Scalding hot take alert: let China bilk/drain their mineral resources all they want. Both China and Islamic states share collectivist values, and that type of relationship could actually provide a bit of stability in the region (at least in the short term), but heads will inevitably roll once China's anti-religious/atheist stance clashes with militant jihadism."

It's not often that I agree with whole statements by you, but here we are

8/16/2021 10:50:48 AM

Quote :

"We are not about to recognize the Taliban and give them legitimacy, or funnel money to them"

remind me to check back on this in a year or two

8/16/2021 11:32:20 AM

Quote :

" Not at all surprised that it happened so quickly, "

Of course, most aren't surprised that the Taliban took over after we left, everyone was expecting that. I think everyone is surprised that they didn't have measures in place to safely evacuate allies, and especially US citizens.

8/16/2021 11:42:05 AM

Quote :

"I just wonder why they pulled out now instead of waiting until their fighting season was over."

Get out before the 20th anniversary of 9/11. For some reason there are people who thought that was important.

Get it done in time to be useful for the midterms (or maybe even get it done early enough that people forget about what a clusterfuck it is by the time the midterms roll around).

There was no valid strategic or international political reason to do it when we did.

Quote :

"Biden/Trump/Obama/Bush Jr. all deserve blame, and I don't want to get into assigning percentages because it changes nothing. Not at all surprised that it happened so quickly, and it's annoying to hear some of the excuses, but it's also annoying to act like there was ever going to be a pro-western stable government in a place like Afghanistan. Scalding hot take alert: let China bilk/drain their mineral resources all they want. Both China and Islamic states share collectivist values, and that type of relationship could actually provide a bit of stability in the region (at least in the short term), but heads will inevitably roll once China's anti-religious/atheist stance clashes with militant jihadism."

Agreed on all points.

Quote :

"I guess this is why ppl oppose wars."

I mean...what? People oppose wars for a long list of reasons, some of which are general and some are dependent on the war. All wars are necessarily wasteful and costly, but "usefulness" varies dramatically, as does support.

Quote :

"after 20 years, one would have hoped/thought that the citizens of Afghanistan would have utilized the resources we tried to "give" them to transition into an actual democracy"

Why would one have thought that? The essentially unruled piece of territory we call "Afghanistan" has no history of democratic institutions, and virtually no history of pursuing them. It barely has a history of government. Various waves of empire have washed over the region for a while, always eventually receding. Sometimes they leave a kingdom or emirate behind, but these have always been tumultuous and largely notional outside of the capital.

I bought into the notion of building a democratic Afghanistan...in 2001, when I was 16. No doubt for a few years after, as well. I've learned my lesson. It was never even a possibility. Maybe if we stayed there for ten generations and put far more resources into it than we had been.

That said, I don't object to the invasion itself. By all means, go in and shoot a bunch of Taliban, blow up their shit, and scatter whatever al Qaeda you can't kill. There is utility in demonstrating serious consequences for blowing up American cities. There's even value in taking a perfectly good excuse for a war and using it to test and learn. But having done that, leave. Blow up whatever materiel we can't bring back with us. Leave everyone with just the accurate memory of the United States military as an unstoppable force that carries all before it, rather than the (equally accurate) picture of an organization that is really bad at propping up unpopular puppet regimes.

Quote :

"I think everyone is surprised that they didn't have measures in place to safely evacuate allies, and especially US citizens."

Again, why? One of the most sickening parts of America's history in armed conflict is our seemingly compulsive need to betray our allies. See: the Kurds, various groups of Vietnamese, the Poles, the Czechs, any Native American group who ever sided with us, ever. The list goes on.

[Edited on August 16, 2021 at 3:45 PM. Reason : ]

8/16/2021 3:40:55 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/15/afghanistan-military-collapse-taliban/

Quote :

"The spectacular collapse of Afghanistan's military that allowed Taliban fighters to walk into the Afghan capital Sunday despite 20 years of training and billions of dollars in American aid began with a series of deals brokered in rural villages between the militant group and some of the Afghan government's lowest-ranking officials. The deals, initially offered early last year, were often described by Afghan officials as cease-fires, but Taliban leaders were in fact offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons, according to an Afghan officer and a U.S. official. Over the next year and a half, the meetings advanced to the district level and then rapidly on to provincial capitals, culminating in a breathtaking series of negotiated surrenders by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police, special operations troops and other soldiers."

Quote :

"The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan. Some Afghan forces realized they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial battlefield support and grew receptive to the Taliban's approaches. 'Some just wanted the money,' an Afghan special forces officer said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the U.S. commitment to a full withdrawal as an 'assurance' that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said."

Quote :

"The Doha agreement, designed to bring an end to the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, bringing into stark relief the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their tenuous loyalty to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid in six months or more. 'They saw that document as the end,' the officer said, referring to the majority of Afghans aligned with the government. 'The day the deal was signed we saw the change. Everyone was just looking out for himself. It was like [the United States] left us to fail.' The negotiated surrenders to the Taliban slowly gained pace in the months following the Doha deal, according to a U.S. official and an Afghan officer. Then, after President Biden announced in April that U.S. forces would withdraw from Afghanistan this summer without conditions, the capitulations began to snowball."

[Edited on August 16, 2021 at 4:24 PM. Reason : ]

8/16/2021 4:21:55 PM

Quote :

"That said, I don't object to the invasion itself. By all means, go in and shoot a bunch of Taliban, blow up their shit, and scatter whatever al Qaeda you can't kill. There is utility in demonstrating serious consequences for blowing up American cities. There's even value in taking a perfectly good excuse for a war and using it to test and learn. But having done that, leave. Blow up whatever materiel we can't bring back with us. Leave everyone with just the accurate memory of the United States military as an unstoppable force that carries all before it, rather than the (equally accurate) picture of an organization that is really bad at propping up unpopular puppet regimes."

3000 dead in the towers. 200000 dead in Afghanistan. Psycho shit.

8/16/2021 4:43:19 PM

Quote :

"Again, why?"

Optics, if nothing else. This shit looks terrible for America, US Military, Biden, etc. And I said citizens too. I don't think we'd go out of our way to help our allies, but I would have least though they would have planned this well enough to get out US citizens.

8/16/2021 4:46:29 PM

^^I think he is advocating getting in and getting out. I don't know the number killed the first 2-3 years vs the last 17-18 but...

Im no war advocate but wars will always have differences in casualties. I think it would be hard for any leader anywhere in the world to have 9/11 and just shrug.

^he meant why are you surprised they failed, not why are you surprised they didn't try (maybe they didn't try but I suspect they did and they were jammed up by bureaucracy and politics)

[Edited on August 16, 2021 at 4:52 PM. Reason : E]

8/16/2021 4:50:07 PM

Quote :

"Why would one have thought that? The essentially unruled piece of territory we call "Afghanistan" has no history of democratic institutions, and virtually no history of pursuing them. It barely has a history of government. Various waves of empire have washed over the region for a while, always eventually receding. Sometimes they leave a kingdom or emirate behind, but these have always been tumultuous and largely notional outside of the capital."

I'm not saying it-- I was just responding to moron and offering my rebuttal because some people are acting like this is the most surprising thing they have ever heard in their lives.


It's also why I said "a place like Afghanistan" earlier...

8/16/2021 5:10:37 PM

Quote :

"Im no war advocate but wars will always have differences in casualties. I think it would be hard for any leader anywhere in the world to have 9/11 and just shrug."

If you don't consider yourself a war advocate you probably shouldn't do apologism for the country doing the war. There's a reason why 9/11 happened and it's not because they hate our freedoms.

[Edited on August 16, 2021 at 5:12 PM. Reason : .]

8/16/2021 5:11:46 PM

Quote :

"3000 dead in the towers. 200000 dead in Afghanistan. Psycho shit."

Just out of curiosity, what is the precise ratio that would have been acceptable? Or at least not psycho? You a strict "eye for an eye" guy, or what?

Quote :

"There's a reason why 9/11 happened"

Please, explain to us all why 9/11 happened. Of course we all know it's our fault but I'm curious to hear the latest reasons why that's the case.

8/16/2021 5:41:48 PM

It IS all our fault. How is this controversial? The US funded and trained the right-wing terrorist predecessors of the Taliban to fight the socialists. The US destabilized the middle east, sometimes playing more than one side to do so. The US created a monster, poked it over and over again, and paid the consequences.

8/16/2021 6:00:11 PM

Oh boy, here we go again...

8/16/2021 6:18:20 PM

8/16/2021 7:14:45 PM

Quote :

"shouldn't do apologism"

Im not sure I did apologism? If you were elected president the day after 9/11 what would your response be? "oh this I valid payback for our poor foreign policy, nothing to see here".

Also I think you're doing apologism for 9/11? Are you pro planes into skyscrapers?

Quote :

" it's not because they hate our freedoms."

Quote :

"The US funded and trained the right-wing terrorist predecessors of the Taliban to fight the socialists."

So we helped them fight Russia and they got mad about that....and attacked us. Seems like maaaaybe it was a tiny bit about "our freedoms"

I think probably 80-90% of our foreign policy has been bad before and after 9/11. If alqaueda had bombed Henry kissinger or George Bush or something maybe you could make some argument but the people int in the world trade center don't deserve to pay for decisions they have little to no control over (they probably didn't even know about many since they were classified!). The afghan civilians also don't deserve to pay for the crimes of al qaeda.

8/16/2021 8:21:13 PM

Quote :

"So we helped them fight Russia and they got mad about that....and attacked us. Seems like maaaaybe it was a tiny bit about "our freedoms""

I have no idea what you're getting at here - we helped the mujahideen (predecessors of the Taliban) fight the socialist government of Afghanistan, which was being supported by the Soviets.

But anyways I agree that it's inevitable that a US president would respond in the same way as a terrorist organization (that the US, again, created).

8/16/2021 9:23:10 PM

Biiiiiiig jump between "We funded Mujahideen" and "That's why 9/11 happened."

8/17/2021 8:37:27 AM

^ It's not entirely inaccurate, though it is missing about 45 years of historical context.

8/17/2021 9:15:36 AM

Yeah, there's facts in there. I know full well we funded shitty fundamentalist mujahideen groups, many of whom we'd end up fighting after 9/11. But our funding for them isn't why 9/11 happened. You can make the case that it was a necessary condition for 9/11. I think you'd be wrong, but it's a case that can reasonably be made.

8/17/2021 10:26:20 AM

The precondition was our funding of terrorist groups. The driving factor was our support for Israel and their actions against Palestinians and Lebanese and our general policy of intervention and destabilization in the Middle East.

8/17/2021 11:52:06 AM

Calls for the 25th amendment are being made.

God I'm so sick of Washington.

8/17/2021 1:23:55 PM

Both sides, huh?

8/17/2021 2:45:33 PM

Quote :

"Calls for the 25th amendment are being made. God I'm so sick of Washington."

Stay off of Twitter for a while unless you just need something to hate-read at the beach.

[Edited on August 17, 2021 at 3:34 PM. Reason : .]

8/17/2021 3:34:39 PM

Rick Scott called for the 25th Amendment, not some randos on twitter

8/17/2021 3:39:46 PM

I don't even have Twitter.

8/17/2021 5:49:07 PM

oic

my bad y'all

carry on

8/17/2021 7:01:01 PM

Don't all the people calling for the 25th think President Kamala would implent some sweeping socialist regimes and mandatory LGBTQ+ curiculum in school, etc, rather than Biden's status quo? Sounds like they're just trying to rile up their base.

8/17/2021 7:25:26 PM

You just answered your own query.

8/17/2021 8:36:43 PM

hahaha

8/17/2021 8:55:36 PM

I'm not here to bash Biden. I would just like to know the answer to a simple question, and I'm sure there are some intelligence reports out there that have the answer.

Why did we evacuate Bagram before getting everybody out? I just don't understand this. Is it because we thought we would have access to the public airport much longer than we actually did?

And as far as the 25th amendment, I really really don't think that should be used unless there are extreme cases of someone not being able to do the job. Biden to me, is not there.

8/18/2021 1:26:16 PM

quote] we would have access to the public airport much longer than we actually did?[/quote]

Yes.

We thought we had the airport and relocated embassy and other operations there. If we thought it would fall as well, we would have left rather than setting up operations there at all.

8/18/2021 1:55:27 PM

The Biden admin just stole nearly all of Afghanistan's central bank holdings

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/18/business/afghan-central-bank.html

Quote :

"This action, which was taken by the Treasury Department, will put economic pressure on the Taliban as they seek to keep public services operating."

Making life hell for civilians in enemy countries, business as usual

8/18/2021 4:03:17 PM