Quote :

"The difference in talent between us and UNC or Duke isn't large, despite whatever scout says."

Do you care to back this statement up with some relevant information to back up your opinion? If not it is about as credible as the ohboyeee eye test.

Quote :

"(talent had nothing to do with either loss) "

That is bullshit and you know it. FSU has a significant talent advantage and you are blinded to that because all of the information you have read sucking off NCSU recruits as the next best thing since sliced bread.

So given the relevant information I have provided: NCSU lost to a more experienced, more talented team (per scout.com) on their home floor. Forgive me for not panicking and declaring the season over.

1/17/2011 12:05:18 PM

experience makes a huge difference. it doesn't matter how talented you are, if you're not comfortable in knowing what you need to do, you're just not gonna perform at your highest level.

it's been a long time since we've seen freshman get a lot of playing time here at nc state outside of jj hickson and julius hodge (besides hodge, sendek would hardly ever play freshman at all) and it's clear that a lot of people don't understand what comes with having a young team. we have 3 freshman getting the majority of our minutes and they're gonna look rough at times. it takes a while to adjust to the college game and college life and you're gonna see kids excel one night but disappear the next. right now, they're thinking too much instead of just playing ball and it may take them a while to get it to click. at times, on defense in particular, they look like they're more concerned with getting where they need to be on instead of just getting good ball pressure. this team has a lot of potential and we've seen flashes of brilliance at times, we just gotta get back to just playing ball and having fun out there.

1/17/2011 12:10:26 PM

Quote :

"FSU has a significant talent advantage"

No. No they don't.

Even if they did have an advantage, do you know what 'significant' means?

[Edited on January 17, 2011 at 12:14 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2011 12:13:19 PM

Quote :

"The talent argument is stupid."

1/17/2011 12:14:08 PM

I'm sure that all of UNC's players are completely deserving of their high ratings and McDonalds AA games.

Also, Ian Miller also just simply isn't a guy worthy of a 5 star ranking.

1/17/2011 12:17:16 PM

You would think the players would play with some heart knowing they are playing for their coaches job. Watching them stand around or do any of the variety of stupid shit that we've grown accustomed to over the past 5 years just doesn't make sense.

1/17/2011 12:31:38 PM

milkboner talkin about things being stupid

1/17/2011 12:37:25 PM

what's stupid is continually paying $5 just to have the "privilege" to bitch on tww.

1/17/2011 12:42:22 PM

I think Lowe would be a better coach if he allowed our players to actually play through their mistakes. I think a lot of the mistakes actually come from fear of getting benched. The fear of being benched I think causes them to be timid, stand around alot, and be uptight in general.

1/17/2011 1:09:23 PM

Quote :

"I'm sure that all of UNC's players are completely deserving of their high ratings and McDonalds AA games"

Rose colored glasses ITT

Quote :

" Also, Ian Miller also just simply isn't a guy worthy of a 5 star ranking."

I think it is very premature to declare Miller being unworthy of a 5 star ranking he has played a total of 135 minutes of college ball. It is pretty easy to imagine similar numbers out of Brown and Harrow if they were coming in as little used backups behind 4* and 5* experienced guards.

1/17/2011 1:12:53 PM

Quote :

"I think it is very premature to declare Miller being unworthy of a 5 star ranking he has played a total of 135 minutes of college ball."

he's already playing college ball, so it is in fact overly mature to evaluate miller as a high school prospect.

1/17/2011 1:18:47 PM

@Adder, are you really willing to say that Larry Drew should have been a McDonalds AA?

Larry Drew.

Quote :

"LARRY FUCKING DREW"

What about the Wonder Twins?

1/17/2011 1:21:35 PM

you really can't possibly believe all of this shit you post, BigEgo.

i mean, i'll grant you the wear twins, but cool your jets guy.

1/17/2011 1:26:42 PM

Wonder Twins but no Larry Drew?


Kendall Marshall also probably shouldn't have been a 5 star.

1/17/2011 1:30:10 PM

The talent "argument" is a moot point anyways, because it's Lowe's fifth year and he doesn't get anymore excuses.

Time to man up and put some W's on the board in the conference.

1/17/2011 1:32:39 PM

Quote :

"Kendall Marshall also probably shouldn't have been a 5 star."

He wasn't. He was a 4* as was Larry Drew. Wear Twins were also 4*. Painter is definitely better than they are right???

1/17/2011 1:36:06 PM

I should have put ever in that sentence. He's terrible.

Never said the wonder twins were 5 stars, but they were mcdonalds AA's and terrribad.

1/17/2011 1:37:10 PM

I wasn't using Mcdonalds AA as my comparison ranking so why are you bringing it up? Oh thats right because to bitch and moan about the Wear's and Drew being 4* doesn't sound nearly as impressive does it?

1/17/2011 1:41:04 PM

Quote :

"Kendall Marshall also probably shouldn't have been a 5 star."

and here we go. we're back to this argument again. you somehow have seen more high school basketball than people who do this for a living. going to a handful of tournaments (maybe? i feel like that's giving you too much credit) and reading a ton of packpride and wolfpackhoops doesn't mean you know how good kendall marshall is compared to everyone else in the class.

it's fucking scout.com, not the selection committee. they go around watching kids and make an evaluation, and people look at it for reference. their evaluation doesn't actually mean a single fucking thing, yet you want to argue very finer points based on a significantly inferior basis b/c you read on nc state blogs that guys get overrated b/c they've committed to unc.

i hate you.

1/17/2011 1:43:50 PM

I actually think Kendall Marshall is pretty good. He isn't crazy athletic, but he's a smart player, has really good court vision, and is a decent driver/shooter....like a slightly athletic Deron Williams (in college...Williams took a few years before he was dominate at Illinois). He's a fringe McDAA. Larry Drew, on the other hand, should have been borderline top 50....maybe top 75. Extremely overrated...I also think he might have some mental deficiencies....one of the dumbest point guards I've ever seen at UNC.

1/17/2011 1:50:54 PM

None of that matters. You are wasting your time arguing about stars and averaging them out to several decimal places.

It's either win, or pack your bags.

1/17/2011 1:52:22 PM

Quote :

"You are wasting your time arguing about stars and averaging them out to several decimal places. with a bunch of trolls. "

1/17/2011 2:01:30 PM

@simonn, I don't actually read wolfpackhoops/whatever the football version is. hate away.

@adder, just using it to support this hypothesis: UNC/Duke recruits always get the benefit of the doubt and a ranking boost, even if Roy/K is obviously missing by taking them.

@jbrick83, good shooters don't shoot 58% from the FT stripe. I'm only slightly exaggerating that Marshall is less athletic than me. He makes some good passes, but makes a lot of stupid passes (his TO rate is slightly worse than Drew's at around twice as often as Harrow's, and Drew's is terrible btw). I'll give Drew and Marshall this: they'd be much better PGs if they played in a system like what UC Berkley has than Roy's uptempo system.

1/17/2011 2:03:36 PM

Quote :

"I actually think Kendall Marshall is pretty good. He isn't crazy athletic, but he's a smart player, has really good court vision, and is a decent driver/shooter....like a slightly athletic Deron Williams (in college...Williams took a few years before he was dominate at Illinois). He's a fringe McDAA. Larry Drew, on the other hand, should have been borderline top 50....maybe top 75. Extremely overrated...I also think he might have some mental deficiencies....one of the dumbest point guards I've ever seen at UNC. "

I agree with this post. I have been surprised by Marshall's play. He was outstanding in the game against VT. Drew is an abortion which is surprising considering his dad is a NBA coach.

1/17/2011 2:08:39 PM

I like Marshall's game as well. Still kind of sad that his dad posts on IC and lashes out when people criticize his son.

1/17/2011 2:10:33 PM

^ i did not know this. What's his sn?

1/17/2011 2:13:33 PM

Quote :

"@jbrick83, good shooters don't shoot 58% from the FT stripe."

Lot's of decent shooters struggle with free throw shooting. I bet he'll be an above average FT shooter by the time he's done at UNC.

He is a 43% 3pt shooter and 50% fg overall. That is a pretty good shooter actually. He can hit the open three and has a good jump shot. He's a good player.

1/17/2011 2:17:03 PM

Ever the optimist, I'm really excited for the end of the season so we can finally close this nightmare chapter of NCSU basketball.

I know some of you posters are much stronger than me and wouldn't mind suffering several more years of this, but I'm just too tired and I'm ready for a change.

[Edited on January 17, 2011 at 2:22 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2011 2:19:08 PM

Quote :

"I actually think Kendall Marshall is pretty good. He isn't crazy athletic, but he's a smart player, has really good court vision, and is a decent driver/shooter....like a slightly athletic Deron Williams (in college...Williams took a few years before he was dominate at Illinois). He's a fringe McDAA. Larry Drew, on the other hand, should have been borderline top 50....maybe top 75. Extremely overrated...I also think he might have some mental deficiencies....one of the dumbest point guards I've ever seen at UNC."

yea I agree with this. Everyone was hating on Marshall coming into the year but when I watch him play he's been pretty damn good for a freshman and one of unc's better players overall. Invoking Deron Williams' name is probably a bit much but still, he's a solid point guard, the type of guy we would've killed for the last 4 (20?) years. I wouldn't trade Harrow for him because I think Harrow has a bigger upside and Marshall's lack of athleticism is very apparent but that's also coming from a biased source. Marshall is a lot bigger and has actually knocked down some 3 pointers this year, he could easily end up the better player

with that said, of course unc/duke guys get overrated. larry drew is ass. paulus could do one thing well. shoot 3s. but it doesn't matter because they get so many of these guys. some of them end up overperforming their expectations (danny green) and others...well, if they stay in school because they suck they eventually make a big impact (zoubek during duke's title run. and just think how much it's going to blow to have to go up against henson and barnes next year)

1/17/2011 2:19:09 PM

Quote :

"Invoking Deron Williams' name is probably a bit much but still"

Everybody forgets that Dee Brown was "the man" at Illinois in the beginning. Deron Williams was as lower ranked recruit and had a pretty mediocre freshmen year...6 ppg, 42% fg, 35% 3pt, and 53% ft (oh wait, he must not be a good shooter because his ft % is low during his freshmen year....).

I guess I compare them because they are pretty much the same size and they do have similar games. Deron didn't start becoming an offensive force until later in his collegiate career and when he got to the NBA. And I swear he wasn't as athletic in college as he is now in the NBA.

I'll stand by my "Marshall looks like a slightly less athletic version of Deron Williams as a freshmen."

1/17/2011 2:35:46 PM

^^^^ I think his sn is mrtiger1

he also posts as MercedesBenz2010 or something like that

I think he only posts on the premium board though

1/17/2011 2:42:56 PM

So the rebuttal you guys have for taking a broad spectrum look at recruiting rankings to give a general talent comparison is to say they are overvalued at Duke/UNC. I am feeling magnanimous so I wont belabor that point to much (Although the Wears as 4* are really no bigger of a stretch than Painter). Do they get over valued as FSU recruits? How about V-tech recruits? Both those teams have a higher level of recruited talent according to scout. Somehow State got the only players that were undervalued? None of our players were over valued? Explain yourselves.

[Edited on January 17, 2011 at 2:49 PM. Reason : v nice failpost]

[Edited on January 17, 2011 at 2:51 PM. Reason : vv No response? I wish I could say I was surprised ohboyee.]

1/17/2011 2:44:04 PM

Dude, just give it up.

1/17/2011 2:47:38 PM

Every team in the ACC has more talent or experience than us. We should expect to be 0-16. Anything better than that is the bee's knees and due to coaching transcending those limitations.

[Edited on January 17, 2011 at 2:50 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2011 2:49:38 PM

It was funny this morning on the radio to hear all the UNC fans calling in talking about how their team lacked heart, how they always started off games slow and weren't prepared, how they lacked fundamentals, etc...also it was funny to hear Roy Williams in the post game presser saying he needed to be a better coach

1/17/2011 2:52:19 PM

^ yeah, it was nice to hear a coach own up to it, instead of our own coach who just continually says "the players have to execute", and "they're not listening".

1/17/2011 2:54:48 PM

but this is a coach with 2 national titles in the last 5 years! how can he even possibly coach any better?

1/17/2011 2:55:13 PM

shirley you're not serious

1/17/2011 3:05:49 PM

i like how roy seems to know that i know that he knows that he's not that good of a coach.

1/17/2011 3:07:31 PM

Quote :

"He is a 43% 3pt shooter and 50% fg overall. That is a pretty good shooter actually. He can hit the open three and has a good jump shot. He's a good player."

I'll give him this, it's a little too early to put too much stock in any of those numbers since he only has like 19 FT attempts and 16 3PT attempts.

@Adder re: Painter vs. the wonder twins, Painter has a higher ceiling than either. None of the three are that great right now, however.

And @everyone re: Roy, I'm not even sure what's up with Roy. He seems to be well, human. He's missing on some recruit evaluations, and getting a few guys that don't seem to fit his style of play. I'm sure he has some greater plan I'm not aware of, and given patience will right the ship, but the man looks a LOT more human than he was just a few years ago. He's never been the greatest in game bench coach, but in every other part of the game he seemed to be a great, great coach (when you take off the red shades of course)

1/17/2011 3:26:47 PM

sidetracking the thread a little, but when's the last time a small forward really succeeded under Roy Williams and in his offense? Pierce?

1/17/2011 3:49:11 PM

^Danny Green not count?

1/17/2011 3:50:50 PM

i still say painter should have been a 3 star. there are plenty of raw big men that come out gold as upperclassmen and maybe painter is one of those but as it was, he was just TOO raw with not enough potential upside (ie, being 7 feet or having henson-like athleticism) to justify anything more. he only maintained his ranking because he was super hyped up when he was like 15

1/17/2011 4:10:38 PM

Quote :

"^Danny Green not count?"

yeah, he had decent junior and senior seasons.

he was pretty good senior year at the 3. 13 pt, 5 reb and 3 assists per game, but i wouldn't exactly call that excelling.

it was enough to get him drafted, though.

1/17/2011 4:32:16 PM

Danny Green was a complete all around player. He was an elite defender and contributed offensively. He was the college version of Shawn Marion, I'd say he excelled.

1/17/2011 4:39:06 PM

^^He had Tyler Hansbrough, Ty Lawson, and Wayne Ellington on that team. What did you expect his stats to be with those guys on the team?

He shot 85% from the stripe, and 42% from 3 with 77 made 3s. He was one of the most efficient players in the nation that year, played very well at both ends of the court, and was a key piece in that title run. Sure he wasn't a star, but it's really hard for any one player to shine brighter than the others on that team (some how Lawson found a way though)

1/17/2011 4:45:28 PM

Oh yeah guys Harrow played really fucking great last game.

Nevermind that he scored 15 of his 17 points with 10 minutes left when we were down 56-38.

Or 9 in the last three minutes when we were down 79-59.


He played like shit for the first 30 minutes but I guess it's okay because he got padders after the game was over.

Don't get me wrong I love the guy and I'm on record as saying he'll have a disappointing season this year before blooming into a star point guard. But let's be honest. He hasn't done anything against good competition yet this year. He can't shoot yet he shoots the ball almost everytime he touches it. It's pretty frustrating really.


And to be honest I'm getting frustrated with Lowe too. He played Howell a total of 17 minutes last game. This shit has got to stop. Tracy isn't the same player he was last year. He can't rebound, his defense isn't nearly as aggressive, and his moves are 80-90% as effective. We NEED Howell out there. Leslie is really coming around but he's not better than Howell yet. We NEED Howell's rebounding, scoring, and the mismatches he creates out there for us. We may need to try Leslie at the 3 and Wood at the 2 if Lorenzo Brown is this unready for the ACC.

Shake it up man, this lineup isn't good enough to win right now.

We will get better though don't worry. This is a tough early schedule for this young team but we also have the most room to improve as these guys get games under their belt.

[Edited on January 17, 2011 at 4:51 PM. Reason : a]

1/17/2011 4:46:45 PM

i'd take him, but having 1 decent year and 1 really good year =/= excelling to me, personally.

pierce is the only dude i can think of under roy who has played at that position in his system and really blossomed.

but, with that, i'll drop it and get back to mocking Sidney fucking Lowe.

1/17/2011 4:56:55 PM

I wonder if we have any realistic chance of getting Jay Wright away from Villanova? I don't know his contract situation but I'd love to have him.

1/17/2011 5:06:53 PM

no.

1/17/2011 5:08:04 PM