Quote :

"All one ever needs to order at Mitch's is the Rodolfo's Feast "

it's more than a feast, more of a feat (HEYO)

Quote :

"no fucking way."

yep

we run deep

[Edited on April 26, 2011 at 1:23 AM. Reason : new page]

4/26/2011 1:22:11 AM

Stanhope is moving along..



[Edited on April 29, 2011 at 2:58 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on April 29, 2011 at 2:58 PM. Reason : .]

4/29/2011 2:57:53 PM

Just tried Hot Box for the first time recently. It was better than expected.

4/29/2011 3:14:52 PM

^Hotbox is pretty good, I have been once and will definitely go back

^^awesome picture, glad its moving along. That will be great for that area of H-Boro street. Hopefully they can add some new commercial space down there too and knock over some of the shit.

4/29/2011 3:37:52 PM

anyone know when Chipolte will open?

Also @calmac....if you get a chance to post any more pictures as Stanhope moves along it would be much appreciated. Is that from the UT parking deck?

5/1/2011 9:17:26 AM

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/05/09/1185492/getting-back-to-the-street.html

5/9/2011 9:27:34 AM

Quote :

"Other changes seek to improve the business climate. Lovett is working with N.C. State officials on a program to let students and staff use special cards, similar to debit cards, to make purchases off-campus"

Seems like I've heard this for ages

Quote :

"The city imposed limits on panhandling in commercial zones with a revised law that took effect in March. "Panhandling was a major issue," Murison said. "

Nice.

5/9/2011 10:08:29 AM

^I think the panhandling ordinance is going to help a lot of areas in and around downtown.

I still think lack of parking (or perceived lack or parking), and lack of nearby student housing are the main issues. Plus the street as a whole still has too many major gabs with no retail that make it less pleasant to walk and frequent than most college streets.

5/9/2011 2:37:29 PM

wait, no more panhandling? finally.

a guy asked me for cash so he could fill up his kerosene heater. it was early august!

5/9/2011 4:44:57 PM

how do they enforce the panhandling ordinance?

do they enforce the panhandling ordinance?

5/9/2011 4:45:06 PM

^I am guessing with police officers

5/9/2011 4:47:48 PM

^^robots

5/9/2011 4:52:41 PM

I like the talk about the new housing/retail developments. Should help the street along with the Stanhope Village project. Along with the Stanhope project they do need to clean up the other end of Hillsborough like the article said. I wish they'd included it in the recent construction, that area of the street needs it. Hopefully the other stuff like new businesses/restaurants at places like the building by Sadlacks, across from the Belltower don't take too long to finally happen.

5/9/2011 5:12:39 PM

Quote :

"Murison is working to lure visitors. An outdoor summer movie series debuts May 19 with "Bull Durham," which includes a scene filmed in Mitch's Tavern."

hell, I'll go to this. anybody have any details?

5/9/2011 7:27:00 PM

Will the stanhope project also be taking up the rest of the gravel parking back there? I drove by the other day and the initial build appears to only be on the back half of that lot by the train tracks. Hopefully they own that whole area and are building in phases.

5/15/2011 9:56:58 AM

I hear there's a plan for a 5 story office building on Hillsborough Street that would go where Cantina, Farmhouse, Katmandu, and The Brewery are. The ground floor would have spaces for new stores and restaurants.

Thoughts? Never really went to any of the above so I personally won't miss 'em. The buildings along there look especially rickety. IMO they can't possibly overhaul that part of Hillsborough fast enough.

6/25/2011 6:10:15 PM

Agreed that side needs serious overhaul. They would also benefit from putting apartments/condos that grad students or professors would want to live in.

6/25/2011 7:06:13 PM

i think we're building the area up far more than there is demand for those areas. there is so much empty office and housing space inside the beltline right now, why add more?

6/26/2011 9:40:08 AM

Rentals are in high demand right now and you'll always have student rentals.

6/26/2011 9:58:00 AM

Quote :

"they can't possibly overhaul that part of Hillsborough fast enough."

x100

6/26/2011 10:59:55 AM

With the Stanhope thing going up behind that area of the street, it would make sense to put something like that there in place of those buildings. Same goes for the Belltower Mart/School Kids Records building beside Sadlacks. Both of those stretches of buildings should be replaced as soon as they can.

6/26/2011 2:58:37 PM

Re-doing everything on that side of the road would be a huge +. I also remember hearing that the gov. was putting together a plan to work on that side of hillsborough street to make it more like the new portion.

6/27/2011 1:09:27 PM

gov.?? governor? government? either way, makes no sense

6/27/2011 1:29:18 PM

"government" "city of raleigh" "_________insert local municipality name here"

your choice, sorry for the shorthand, and thats your tax dollars @ work so I would hope it makes sense.

6/27/2011 1:45:28 PM

anyone have updated pictures of stanhope?

6/27/2011 1:53:13 PM

Quote :

"Rentals are in high demand right now and you'll always have student rentals."

what are you, on PCP? if you're talking about in highly populated dense urban areas, then yes. if you're talking about in Raleigh, NC where there is ample rental space due to under utilized growth from 2004 - 2007, then no.

6/27/2011 2:23:50 PM

I assume you're talking about the downtown condos that haven't sold.

True, the units downtown that are available for SALE are not doing so well. West at North, Quorum Center, and Bloomsbury Estates all held auctions to reduce excess inventory.

The units downtown that are available for RENT are doing quite well, even here in Raleigh. I hear 712 Tucker is pretty much 100% occupied and has a waiting list. Hue seems to be about 90% occupied (208 total units, 21 listed as available on their website.) And the rents for these places aren't cheap either - we're talking $1400/mo for 1-bedroom units with less than 1,000 square feet.

Because of the huge demand for urban apartments (Yes, even here in Raleigh) there are four other similar developments on tap, two right next to 712 in Glenwood South, one at Cameron Village, and one on Hillsborough Street (next to IHOP).

6/27/2011 2:43:26 PM

^ exactly.

6/27/2011 2:49:26 PM

hue was almost empty trying to sell units until they hired a management company and rented out, now its nearing full

6/27/2011 2:52:44 PM

Any realtor you ask will tell you that this is the best rental market that they've ever seen.

6/27/2011 3:20:43 PM

the revitalization and recent discussion largely has to do with mixed use spaces. Commercial renting spaces are nearly vacant in the area and any of these mixed use spaces will be under utilized just as the mixed use ones located downtown and in mixed use condos, as well.

if you want to make this a conversation about residential, even that is not "strong". There is ample demand for rental space but there is also ample supply. The future developments you discussed are 3 - 5 years away from development and are based on future growth projections. these projections may or may not come to fruition, meaning these projects could be canceled. A lot of the projects you're seeing now (chickfila cameron, stanhope) we're originally slated for a few years back and are just now happening.

sure there are lots of people looking to move in downtown at this point we are right under what i would consider equilibirum. some places have waiting lists, others don't. the reasons why places like tucker have waiting lists is because of those specific locations and residential type. other places that are located inside the belt line do not have the same strong response and have low rent volume. as such places located just a few miles away from glenwood and downtown, i.e. hillsborough, would not likely see the same response.

6/27/2011 5:05:49 PM

On top of this being an overall good market for rentals with high prices and high demand, there is a big difference between standard boring suburban apartment complexes, of which there are shitloads both inside and outside the beltline, and places in walkable urban neighborhoods. In fact, Raleigh just has a severe lack of walkable neighborhoods altogether, and there is an even more severe lack of new, modern apartments for rent in these areas, so this limited supply pushes the supply/demand curve way towards heavy demand. You're right that location matters, and this is why 712 Tucker and Hue can get away with charging $1400+ per month for tiny 1-bedroom apartments and still be basically sold out. I would argue that frankly, in spite of all its problems, Hillsborough Street is still one of the city's premier addresses and best walkable neighborhoods.

As for the commerical spaces, on Hillsborough Street, most of the spaces are occupied. There are some vacancies especially west of Dan Allen, but I would argue that's because of (1) the terrible condition of the infrastructure and buildings, (2) looming specter of disruption from future road reconstruction, (3) uncertainty regarding what's going to be torn down by the Stanhope Center redevelopment. Even in spite of this, plenty of the retail spaces here DO have tenants. Once those three issues are out of the way, plus plunk down probably 2000 residents in Stanhope Center once it's built out, then this neighborhood will take off.

[Edited on June 27, 2011 at 9:16 PM. Reason : No reason]

6/27/2011 9:12:10 PM

^^ I get what you're saying, but apartment units within walking distance of a major university are always going to have demand. Seasonal demand yes, but unless something drastic happens kids are going to keep going to State.

6/27/2011 9:23:03 PM

Quote :

"unless something drastic happens kids are going to keep going to State."

World War III

6/27/2011 9:47:47 PM

Or the zombie apocalypse

6/27/2011 9:48:47 PM

How dare you. Zombies should be able to go to college if they please.

6/27/2011 11:02:56 PM

I think BRAAAAINSS are already on the menu at Fountain.

6/27/2011 11:10:34 PM

^6

You have the basics right but your logic is slightly disconnected.

Demand for all things are not equal because different products have different clientele. Some of the residential apartment rentals and condos downtown have a waiting list because they serve a broader demographic, say 21 - 34.

Conversely, apartments that are right across from train tracks, in front of a college, and across from stores such as Subway, PizzAmerica and East Village will not attract the same demographic and will be limited to those 19 -22, at best. Simply put, the demands do not intersect and are irrelevant to one another. High demand for living opportunities downtown does not equate to equal demand on Hillsborough Street. To further elaborate on that point, only a subset of the 19 - 22 demographic would typically demand the newly developed living space. Generally speaking, many people choose to move further away from campus in their upper class years and thus a significant portion of the 20 - 22 student body would likely choose to live elsewhere; this is why the residents of UT and Granville Towers are in the lower bound of that age range.

Two other points that I'll touch on briefly are that:

1) the demographic mentioned are not those who typically appreciate "walking neighborhoods" nor would a few new buildings give Hillsborough street that vibe since the night life around there is limited.

2) While the areas downtown are high rent, rents in that area have been fairly static over the past 3 - 4 years. For example, Oberlin Court has offered single bedrooms for 1200+ since its open. Significant demand would generate and increase in these prices. Static pricing indicates demand that is not overly strong.

[Edited on June 28, 2011 at 9:06 AM. Reason : spacing]

6/28/2011 9:05:02 AM

Quote :

"While the areas downtown are high rent, rents in that area have been fairly static over the past 3 - 4 years. For example, Oberlin Court has offered single bedrooms for 1200+ since its open. Significant demand would generate and increase in these prices. Static pricing indicates demand that is not overly strong."

You're basing this on one apartment building that is not downtown. Prices may very well be static at Oberlin Court because it is neither near campus nor downtown. Their demand has stayed the same, if not decreased there since numerous better options have opened in downtown.

6/28/2011 10:19:12 AM

So what you're saying is that demand downtown does not necessarily indicate that demand a few miles away (e.g. Hillsborough Street) would be equally as attractive. Because if you are, then you helped solidify my point.

6/28/2011 10:37:48 AM

No, I'm saying that you're presenting a very poor, if not downright idiotic argument based on cherry picked anecdotal evidence that doesn't even relate to the discussion.

Quote :

"Prices may very well be static at Oberlin Court because it is neither near campus nor downtown."

Regardless, I'm pretty sure that you're only posting more because you made a stupid comment and then got called out on it. Now you're trying to justify a poorly thought out and stupid comment with overly wordy posts that you hope will make you seem well educated on the matter. You can talk about demographic subsets all you want to and make up trends to go along with them, but it's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about.

6/28/2011 12:02:43 PM

People don't move away from campus after the dorms because they WANT to be further away. They move further away because that is where all of the less run down apartment complexes are. I would have absolutely jumped at the opportunity to be within short walking distance to campus and the Hillsborough street establishments if the apartments were decent and the price wasn't extremely high.

5-6 years ago about the only options for living really close to campus was to live in the run down Avent Ferry apartments or to rent a run down house on the Hillsborough side.

6/28/2011 12:22:47 PM

Quote :

"Just tried Hot Box for the first time recently. It was better than expected."

Man, I love Hot Box. I would eat there more if I wasn't focusing on BF % reduction right now, haha.

6/28/2011 12:24:47 PM

I would argue that Hillsborough Street is a better location than Oberlin Court, and this will be even more so after the infrastructure is overhauled. This is certainly debatable. Will they be able to charge $1500 for one-bedrooms, and still have a waiting list? Of course not, but $1500 rents and 100% occupancy will also not be required for profitability. If they can charge what Oberlin Court charges and achieve 90% occupancy then they'll probably be happy.

Being next to the railroad is not all bad in this case either, since this spot on Hillsborough Street will also be a very short walk from both a light rail station AND a commuter rail station per current plans. (Though these transit plans are about decade away, if they happen at all.)

The commercial/retail spaces are more of a question mark here, but I think it will do fine. Will they be 100% leased at completion and have zero turnover? No. Even if half of the spaces sit vacant for a year, as the rest of Hillsborough Street gradually redevelops it will fill in. It doesn't have to be an immediate slam dunk in order to be a success.

I also think that the apartments at Cameron Village will be a slam dunk. This will probably be in the same $1500/mo range as 712 Tucker. This will likely appeal to a somewhat older demographic than Glenwood South.

6/28/2011 1:18:03 PM

Any updated pics of stanhope. I will take a drive by there and take some soon.

6/28/2011 2:34:25 PM

Quote :

"[per current plans. (Though these transit plans are about decade away, if they happen at all.)"

There is a large contradiction in your statement. I also don't think it is wise to price in changes that will not likely materialize. Additionally, the rents you suggest just are not likely on that part of Hillsborough. These are students, whose rent budget is far less than those of recent grads and young professionals. For a single or two bedroom you're looking at $600/850 max if you want to reach an equilibrium based on demographic demand. If places sit empty its nothing more than ineffective capital utilization since a smaller building could have been built at a lower TCU.

Quote :

"People don't move away from campus after the dorms because they WANT to be further away."

Then please explain why people move out of both Granville Towers and UT


[user]mr joshua[/user] i'm not sure what you're talking bout. I agree, James, that I did miss one part of your statement that I now notice since it is in bold but am not sure I follow the rest of what you said. Some of my posts have been lengthy but only because it has become evident I have to spell everything out because otherwise some jump to conclusions, just as you have. Oberlin court worked as a good example only because it has been around for so long and prices have remained consistent. Other developments closer to downtown have remained consistent in pricing as well, so if you wish to use those for comparison, then please do. Either way, it doesn't change the point that demand isn't too strong since pricing has remained stable. I believe that I have addressed in multiple ways why student demand won't be sufficient for growth. I would reiterate but I don't won't to be too "wordy"

6/28/2011 3:21:31 PM

Quote :

"For a single or two bedroom you're looking at $600/850 max if you want to reach an equilibrium based on demographic demand."

Really? In the past 3 months I've rented out two 2-bed/1 bath houses off of Hillsborough St to college students for $1300/month. In the house that I've been renting out the longest (on Bagwell Ave) I've seen rent go up 50% over the past 5 years.

Quote :

"Then please explain why people move out of both Granville Towers and UT"

Because both exist as an alternative to on campus housing, but are still basically day cares for 18 year olds. After a year of that most people want to live somewhere without an RA up their ass.

Quote :

"Oberlin court worked as a good example only because it has been around for so long and prices have remained consistent."

Prices are consistent there because it's a horrible development. It is not convenient to anything besides Wade Ave. Even Cameron Village is barely within walking distance. It simply is not competitive nor has it ever been in demand..

Quote :

"Other developments closer to downtown have remained consistent in pricing as well, so if you wish to use those for comparison, then please do."

I've got a condo on Boylan Ave downtown that I recently rented for 15% higher than I was able to rent it for 18 months ago (hell, I should have asked for more this time around since it rented in 2 days).

Quote :

"Either way, it doesn't change the point that demand isn't too strong since pricing has remained stable"

I've given you my share of anecdotal evidence (both near campus and downtown). Prove me wrong by citing something other than Oberlin Court.

6/28/2011 3:41:06 PM

Quote :

" In the house that I've been renting out the longest (on Bagwell Ave)"

Houses rent differently than apartments, even at equal square footage. then again, you know this. Additionally your homes on Bagwell, are clustered in a neighborhood area, not smashed right against campus. Of course your rents would be higher.

Quote :

"but are still basically day cares for 18 year olds."

Those places are hardly monitored. However, they may have an RA type person there, I can't really recall. I will look into this further.

Quote :

"Prices are consistent there because it's a horrible development."

In 2007 Tucker was ~$1300 for a mid-grade single bedroom. While I don't know the exact prices today I would bet money they are not much different, when adjusted for inflation. What I do know is that the pricing for 222 has remained fairly static and I do not believe it fits any of the failures you cited for Oberlin. Again, I think Oberlin is comparable in failures to those that will be on Hillsborough, less the clientele, which only further serves my point.

Quote :

"[quote]I've got a condo on Boylan Ave downtown that I recently rented for 15% higher than I was able to rent it for 18 months ago (hell, I should have asked for more this time around since it rented in 2 days)."

At what price did you rent? It would be impossible for me to compare your anecdote with other, available evidence without something more quantitative. That way I can identify the trends for other rents on the 3rd floor of the paramount and see if they rose in general or if you happened to rent yours below market value, in which case a 15% gain for you would be approaching value and not an indication of strength.

[Edited on June 28, 2011 at 4:44 PM. Reason : stuff]

6/28/2011 4:19:50 PM

shit, with prices like that, it makes me wonder why people wouldn't want to join a fraternity

rent is like $2000/semester and you get free meals and parking

6/28/2011 6:45:47 PM

The gay stuff scares off a lot of the less open minded people.

6/28/2011 7:07:08 PM