i don't think there's been any evidence to suggest that jacob does exist in the alternate timeline, has there?

3/18/2010 1:42:11 AM

none?

and it doesn't even make sense

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

3/18/2010 2:54:24 AM

what?

3/18/2010 3:20:58 AM

Quote :

"I wonder if they will follow through with charlie being at sawyers station"

according to imdb, Dominic Monaghan has been signed on to play Charlie in next weeks episode. And the photos I found have him standing in Sawyers station with a gun drawn

[Edited on March 18, 2010 at 3:47 PM. Reason : asd]

3/18/2010 3:47:41 PM

i thought it was fairly obvious that it was charlie who was arrested on drug charges and at sawyer's station...but i guess you never know with lost. i'm hoping it's not b/c it really really sucks when things get that predictable.

3/18/2010 4:07:12 PM

^ haha, what gave it away? his brother being at the station?

3/18/2010 4:47:08 PM

i'm pretty sure that was walt's brother

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

3/18/2010 4:48:13 PM

Quote :

"I wish the flash sideways was a world in which Jacob didn't exist,"

going back to this....

3/19/2010 1:07:10 AM

can't troll me

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

3/19/2010 9:04:44 AM

All this Charlie talk is making me think about how he knowingly sacrificed himself for Claire and Aaron based on Desmond's vision that she would get on the helicopter and get off the island. That kinda pisses me off now that she's just an allegedly infected-by-evil crazy bitch. It seemed as if they were trying to break down her crazy walls with that scene b/t her and kate where she cries on Kate's shoulder, but that could just be more crazyness.

[Edited on March 19, 2010 at 9:10 AM. Reason : .]

3/19/2010 9:09:34 AM

Quote :

"i'm pretty sure that was walt's brother"

Bullshit that was definitely Vincent's brother.

Quote :

"according to imdb, Dominic Monaghan has been signed on to play Charlie in next weeks episode."

Enter mambagirl crying about spoilers.

3/19/2010 9:18:25 AM

This is not your island, this is our island, and the only reason you're living on it is because we let you live on it.

3/19/2010 11:48:02 AM

Quote :

"can't troll me"

i'm not trying to troll you. jesus christ, the trolling paranoia on tww is so fucking ridiculous.

i think it's perfectly reasonable that jacob doesn't exist in the alternate timeline. there's nothing that suggest that he does/ever did. none of the survivors could have been touched. sun and jin aren't married. locke wasn't thrown out of a building by his dad. sawyer was eight years old in the original timeline when his parents were killed, and he said he was nine in the alternate timeline. either it was a mistake on the part of the writers, or they did it deliberately. if he was nine, jacob may not have been able to visit him because the island could have sunk by then. jacob was probably gone before the time when he originally touched jack and kate, and hurley and sayid weren't touched til 2007.

3/19/2010 12:33:13 PM

I think it's a perfectly valid theory.

3/19/2010 1:25:36 PM

Quote :

"sun and jin aren't married."

I may have missed something here. They were on the plane together, and Jin was taken away by TSA, and then we didn't see Sun again (or at least i didn't) after that, and the next time I remember seeing Jin was when Sayid finds him tied up in the restaurant.

Plz fill in any blanks.

3/19/2010 2:09:43 PM

^ they weren't wearing wedding rings

3/19/2010 2:23:12 PM

^ that's all we know so far. I imagine the blanks will be filled in when we get the kwon flash-sideways.


I think Jacob not existing in the flashes is no more or less reasonable than him existing. Well to be honest, it's slightly more reasonable to think that he does exist. So far in the flashes, all of the same people still exist. It's just that their circumstances are just a little different. So if everyone else seems to still exist, why think that Jacob doesn't? It could be that he exists and just has no interest in the primaries in that version of reality. It's possible that like every other character so far, Jacob's situation in the alternate reality is just as different as everyone else's. Perhaps he's manipulating an entirely different group on a different island. - who knows.

Do you think Anna Lucia, Libby, Michael, Walt, Penny, Farraday, Eloise, etc. - VINCENT - don't exist either simply because we haven't seen them in a flash sideways yet?

But, maybe that's the difference in the alternate reality - Jacob isn't around to manipulate people.

3/19/2010 2:26:46 PM

Quote :

"But, maybe that's the difference in the alternate reality - Jacob isn't around to manipulate people."

and i think that's perfectly reasonable considering what MiB said to sawyer about how jacob was constantly pushing the people he touched to the island, and decisions they made throughout their lives weren't actually their decisions. but then there's the whole thing about all of them being on flight 815 and interacting with each other anyway, so i don't really know.

3/19/2010 2:42:54 PM

Quote :

"Do you think Anna Lucia, Libby, Michael, Walt, Penny, Farraday, Eloise, etc. - VINCENT - don't exist either simply because we haven't seen them in a flash sideways yet?"

to me that seems like a bit of a stretch thinking that none of them exist. i think they do exist and for whatever reason, they just dont play a role in the alt-timeline events that we have seen thus far.

3/19/2010 2:43:11 PM

The idea came to me thinking about how sawyer was touched at the funeral and perhaps if jacob hadn't touched him then he would've become a cop instead of a con man, but the more i thought about it the less it made since. It doesn't explain why sayid wouldn't be married to whats her face because jacob came to them when they were together.

I think the flash sideways is just what will happen after the series finale. IE at the end some shit will happen and they will just end up on the plane again and its their way of preventing us from going "oh well what happens after the plane lands- possible spin off?"

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

[Edited on March 19, 2010 at 3:09 PM. Reason : i was also drunk at the time, hence my anti trolling remark.]

3/19/2010 3:06:58 PM

^^ i am confused by your statement good sir. Are you merely agreeing? I guess that does happen on tww occasionally.

It wasn't really a question that i was posing. It was more of a slightly smart-ass rhetorical question being used to make a point. That point being taking exactly what you said and then apply it to Jacob.

[Edited on March 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM. Reason : ^]

3/19/2010 3:08:06 PM

Quote :

"IT MADE SINCE"

3/19/2010 3:25:02 PM

Quote :

"I think the flash sideways is just what will happen after the series finale. IE at the end some shit will happen and they will just end up on the plane again and its their way of preventing us from going "oh well what happens after the plane lands- possible spin off?""

i would consider this a possibility, but damon lindelof and carlton cuse said the flash sideways thing was going to turn out to be very important. i think that would suggest that it'll be something far more significant than an epilogue.

3/19/2010 3:33:45 PM

^ thinking about it - assuming they go the reset route (which I hope they don't), i'd be cool with a "yeah, we reset everything - but we've been showing you what would have happened to the characters all of this season" situation - i think.

But I'd mostly like for them to not go the "reset" route. And I don't really think they will.

[Edited on March 19, 2010 at 3:48 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2010 3:44:22 PM

^ but if the bomb wasn't the reason why the island sank or what started the alternate timeline then jack and co. wouldn't have made it so they never crashed on the island. that was their intention, but for all we know some other event may have caused the alternate timeline.

3/19/2010 3:51:42 PM

I'm not sure I follow you exactly. let me know if this answers what you're getting at:

I think it's very possible that they set the bomb off and the flash-sideways we're seeing are the result of it.

I do have one big question that would thwart that idea - Roger and Ben were in their real time on the island at that point. How did they get off the island? Roger could have maybe gotten to the evacuation subs/boats in time, but what about Ben? I'm pretty sure he was still at the temple. But we know from the flash-sideways that they were on the island. And we know it's since sunk. So it's possible it was that version of them and they were able to leave.



But at the same time, I'm not sold on the idea of the bomb causing the alternate timeline, or that it even went off for certain.

But I was just saying that if that is what's going, it's some sort of "reset", whether it was caused by the bomb going off or something we haven't seen yet, I'd be OK with the flash side-ways being sort of an epilogue running concurrent with the climax.


And I guess I said that I don't think they're going the reset route - I recant that. It's definitely possible, and I like it just fine - it will actually fall right in line with one of my crazy lost theories from like 3 seasons back.

[Edited on March 19, 2010 at 4:38 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2010 4:37:01 PM

Quote :

"I think it's very possible that they set the bomb off and the flash-sideways we're seeing are the result of it."

i'm gonna use sawyer to explain why i don't understand how this would be possible. sawyer was 8 years old in 1976 when his parents died. if the bomb is what caused the alternate timeline to begin in 1977, how would that have created an alternate reality where an event that already happened would have happened later? i think whatever caused the split would've had to have occurred way before that. hell, it could've been locke interacting with richard in 1954. then again, widmore remembered locke from when he was a kid. i don't know. feel free to fill any holes in my logic.

Quote :

"I do have one big question that would thwart that idea - Roger and Ben were in their real time on the island at that point. How did they get off the island? Roger could have maybe gotten to the evacuation subs/boats in time, but what about Ben? I'm pretty sure he was still at the temple. But we know from the flash-sideways that they were on the island. And we know it's since sunk. So it's possible it was that version of them and they were able to leave."

roger cared too much about ben to have left the island without him. we know that roger and ben were on the island in the alternate timeline, and the only assumption we can make about it is that they arrived there in 1973 just like in the original timeline since there have been several events that mirrored each other in both timelines. however, we don't know how long they stayed. they could've left a year later, or possibly everything jack and co. did was in the alternate timeline, and roger took ben off the island after the nuke went off but before the island sunk. who knows.

and the reason i don't like the reset route and why it's not okay to me is because of what someone said earlier in this thread: why am i supposed to care? the people in the alternate timeline don't matter to me at this point, and if it turns out that they don't really have any effect on who's still on the island then it's just stupid. i'd rather see some open-ended sopranos kind of thing than a sorry attempt at closure like that. i have faith in the writers that it'll be way more important.

[Edited on March 19, 2010 at 5:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2010 4:59:37 PM

timeline A and timeline b is the alternate timeline

timeline A sawyer went to 70s of timeline B where they blew up the bomb.

Everything prior to the incident is the same in both timelines. Many things after the incident are different.

Timeline A jack, sayer, hurley, miles and co returned to present day timeline A after the incident.

3/19/2010 5:18:09 PM

Quote :

"i'm gonna use sawyer to explain why i don't understand how this would be possible. sawyer was 8 years old in 1976 when his parents died. if the bomb is what caused the alternate timeline to begin in 1977, how would that have created an alternate reality where an event that already happened would have happened later? i think whatever caused the split would've had to have occurred way before that. hell, it could've been locke interacting with richard in 1954. then again, widmore remembered locke from when he was a kid. i don't know. feel free to fill any holes in my logic."

I'm assuming you're referring to the article saying James was 9 when it happened in the alternate time-line?

A) how do you know what year it was that his dad killed his mom and himself? If you have a way of knowing, cool. All I know is that he was 8.

According to lostpedia, he was born in 1968 - Sawyer would have still been 8 in 1977, assuming his birthday isn't Jan 1st.

B) It was in 1977 that the bomb would have gone off (assuming it did), right? I don't know the month or date though.

So it's possible that if the killings hadn't happened by that point in 1977, that the bomb going off/ the release of the magnetic force/whatever may have caused the killings to be delayed a few months. Just like Locke is still in a wheel chair, but not from the same thing probably, so it probably didn't happen at the exact same time.

So there's a precedent for that. And assuming there aren't hard dates referring to the death of Sawyer's parents and the bomb going off, it could be very similar to the Locke situation - it still happened, just earlier or later in his life than what we were first told.


And to be honest, I personally don't think it was the bomb which caused the differences. I believe that if anything, setting off or trying to set the bomb off is actually one of the differences. I believe they jumped back to a different time-line period. And all sorts of things were probably different up to that point and they contributed to more changes - a domino effect. A lot of things were probably the same or similar, just like we're being shown with the flash sideways (jack is still a doctor, his dad died in austrailia - but he's not an acloholic, and he has a son. Sawyer's parents are dead, he's still lying to people for a living, but now he's a cop, etc). - Initially we all probably said, "oh, locke is still in a wheel chair." And that's true and the same on the surface. But it's different because the reasoning seems to be different. It's a seemingly subtle difference at the end of the day... but it is enough to change some things - like maybe his attitude toward his father from what we knew of island Locke.

Quote :

"however, we don't know how long they stayed. they could've left a year later, or possibly everything jack and co. did was in the alternate timeline, and roger took ben off the island after the nuke went off but before the island sunk. who knows."

My point with that is that the only way in my eyes that the flash sideways can possibly be an alternate time-line caused by the bomb* is if Roger and Ben were able to get off - since we know they both exist in the flash-sideways. And I have doubts about the possibility of that because even though roger may have been able to get off, Ben was at the temple as far as we know. So regardless of whether or not Roger would leave Ben... it's a little unlikely that Ben would have made it off in that scenario - so it's a major kink in that idea that the flash sideways is an alternate reality caused by the bomb going off. And what I specifically mean is that I think the bomb would have killed anyone who didn't evacuate in time. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But i figure anyone who didn't get off the island in time was toast. But assuming I'm right about the toast thing, that just means it's definitely wasn't the bomb that caused it.

* We don't know for sure the bomb even went off. For all we know, maybe the release of the magnetic force caused some changes which then snowballed. One thing that does kind of add up is that Roger had a bit of a turn around about caring for Ben once he was hurt. So that could make sense of their seemingly good relationship in the flash sideways.

Quote :

"why am i supposed to care? the people in the alternate timeline don't matter to me at this point, and if it turns out that they don't really have any effect on who's still on the island then it's just stupid. i'd rather see some open-ended sopranos kind of thing than a sorry attempt at closure like that. i have faith in the writers that it'll be way more important."

But they will matter in that case, it's what would have happened assuming the plan to change things did/does work. They were just wrong in thinking that they were going to change anything that happened to themselves. I like it because it's logical. It eliminates paradoxes if they were changing things but only on their time line.

I kinda get the, these aren't the people who we'e come to care about angle. But I think, assuming it's an alternate time-line caused by them, it presents an interesting topic. There's been a lot of talk of fate and how things should be and going back to make things right. That could put them in a situation where they have to choose to make things right for htis "alternate reality", but they get nothing out of it.

And keep in mind the whole Desmond thing. Desmond went back in forth in time much differently than everyone else. His mind went back and forth and sort of joined together so that he ended up in one or the other with knowledge of both. It's exactly how Faraday's rat's learned the puzzles which they were never taught and it's what is research was about. imo, they made too big of a deal of that for it not to be significant and not come back up (i'm actually going to be pissed if it doesn't). So that's a precedent for a mechanism by which the characters we've followed for so can actually end up in the reality of the flash sideways.

And who funded Faraday's research? --- Whidmore
Who just recently showed up back at the island? --- Whidmore


So, it's certainly possible that it could come back up. I'm not sure it will, but it's definitely possible.

[Edited on March 19, 2010 at 6:35 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2010 6:19:59 PM

I would like to restate that this opinion was generated at 130 am on st pattys day.

I'm astraladvent and I approved this message

3/19/2010 6:59:07 PM

Quote :

"I'm assuming you're referring to the article saying James was 9 when it happened in the alternate time-line? A) how do you know what year it was that his dad killed his mom and himself? If you have a way of knowing, cool. All I know is that he was 8."

the letter he carried around with him had a bicentennial logo on the envelope. that would've been from 1976 when sawyer would have been 8 years old. i'm almost positive he also made a comment to someone in 1977 (kate or jack, i can't remember) that the event where his dad killed his mom and himself had happened a year ago and that he could've left the island to stop it, but he didn't because he said you can't change the past. i think that also debunks the possibility of the killings not happening yet in 1977, right?

and i've always liked the theory behind the importance of desmond's time/dimension traveling, which is another reason why i agreed with you that it might come into play with the rest of the characters. that really seems like a much more acceptable way of the alternate timeline being important. if it is an epilogue i can't see that being a reason why the writers are all going into hiding after the finale since it would be a logical end to the story.

3/19/2010 7:25:15 PM

yeah, those dates seem to make sense and would squash any possibility - i think - of the bomb going off being the cause of the changes. There is still the possibility that it was a different time-line regardless of the bomb going off or not. -- but who knows at this point.


I would much rather the flash sideways come into play in relation to the desmond x factor scenario somehow instead of simply being a "this is what would would happen" kind of thing. Mostly, I just hope they tie into the plot some how.

3/19/2010 8:05:59 PM

I haven't read all these posts, but I don't see what this debate is about, honestly.

Clearly, 815 didn't crash because the bomb destroyed the field, preventing the plane from crashing. But something else also had to have altered their course because in the alternate timeline, many things are different from the original timeline even before the crash was supposed to happen. Something else altered time. For some reason, Jacob doesn't seem to be interfering with their lives as much in the alternate timeline.

Maybe I'm missing something...what exactly is being debated?

3/19/2010 11:26:23 PM

i don't know if i should respond to the post above this or not

3/19/2010 11:32:22 PM

Well, I asked you to explain the nature of this debate to me because I wasn't on the same page as you guys. I'm not sure the points you guys are debating. Respond or don't; still no need to be a douche about it.

3/20/2010 12:22:27 AM

Quote :

"I haven't read all these posts, but I don't see what this debate is about, honestly."

I haven't graduated highschool, but i can't figure out why you won't hire me, honestly.

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

3/20/2010 12:30:52 AM

Quote :

"Well, I asked you to explain the nature of this debate to me because I wasn't on the same page as you guys. I'm not sure the points you guys are debating. Respond or don't; still no need to be a douche about it."

haha i'm the douche, yet you asked me to waste my time summarizing a debate that you admittedly didn't bother to read. that's fair.

3/20/2010 12:39:55 AM

I read the first few and didn't understand what you guys were debating about, so, as a result, the next few posts didn't make sense BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS WERE DEBATING. I said as much. Then you acted like I was just begging for you to respond. So, yes, you're the douche for acting like a give a shit if you clarify or not.

3/20/2010 12:47:32 AM

Quote :

"I haven't graduated highschool, but i can't figure out why you won't hire me, honestly."

3/20/2010 12:49:35 AM

^ your inbox is green, guy

3/20/2010 1:02:27 AM

i was just thinking about how the island could've sunk in timeline B as a result of faraday not telling the others to bury jughead, and it may have detonated on the surface. then i realized a hydrogen bomb probably wouldn't sink an island and would probably wipe out dharmaville in the process even if it did. i hate this show.

[Edited on March 20, 2010 at 3:50 AM. Reason : .]

3/20/2010 3:50:11 AM

^^ So's yours. And I'm not your guy, friend.

3/20/2010 9:47:43 AM

back to lost...

3/20/2010 1:09:11 PM

I've actually read most of the posts on here since Season 6. When I said I hadn't, I was referring to the posts that this specific debate entailed. All I wanted to know was what argument you were making about what caused the alternate timeline. Are you saying that what caused the alternate timeline happened way before the bomb? And if so, in your theory, did the bomb even actually go off or did this event prevent Jack, Sawyer, Juliet, etc. from setting off the bomb? Are you saying that something happened that prevented them from going to the island at all (even in 1976)? It seemed like you guys were alternately arguing both sidees of it--that's what I was confused about. It seemed like you both thought something other than or in addition to the bomb caused the alternate timeline. I didn't want you to rehash what you've already written--I was just a little confused about the details of your theory. That's all I meant; I didn't think it was that big of a deal.

[Edited on March 20, 2010 at 1:49 PM. Reason : .]

3/20/2010 1:40:16 PM

i give this season a 3 out of 10 so far

3/20/2010 1:42:20 PM

Quote :

"Are you saying that what caused the alternate timeline happened way before the bomb?"

yes

Quote :

"i give this season a 3 out of 10 so far"

yeah that's about where i'm at. i'm just waiting for the HOLY SHIT moment whenever they explain the significance of the flash sideways and it makes season 6 awesome.

Quote :

""Everybody's kind of trying to figure out what it is," he says of the sideways. "Are they 'what if' stories? Is it an alternate reality? And all we've said is, 'This is the big mystery of the season. You think that you know what these things are, but we're not going to tell you. You have to keep watching, and over the course of the season, hopefully it will become more and more apparent.' ""

3/20/2010 2:05:33 PM

Alternate timeline has always existed

Nothing caused it to come into existence

This fact is indisputable

3/20/2010 2:13:01 PM

care to explain how it's indisputable? or are you just going to continue to speak in absolutes that you don't know for sure?

3/20/2010 2:15:57 PM

Geez, guy

3/20/2010 2:19:37 PM

***haven't read the thread***

was thinking that maybe the alternate timeline was if Jacob never 'touched' the other people on the mainland

3/20/2010 2:22:49 PM