That's a fair point to make, and I agree that the vast majority of politics is theater. However, there are real consequences to letting some of these people dictate policy. For example, here in NC instead of putting forth legislation to actually keep our state from becoming a shithole like the states that surround us, they'd rather focus on social regression and environmental devastation. There is no longer a middle ground so sane people to actually have a reasonable discussion.

7/27/2011 3:26:21 PM

Quote :

"so evidently Reid has a plan that has more cuts then Boehner. what's up with that?"

Given the imaginative math that Reid and Pelosi used to justify Obamacare as "saving money," you'll forgive me if I take any mathematical claims of Harry Reid with a block of salt. Yes, block.

7/28/2011 3:40:12 AM

republicans start of with the plan they want as thier plan and democrats start off with a compromised plan. Republicans then force the democrats to move to the right of thier original plan. Its a joke and its happened with healthcare, bush tax cuts and now this.

7/28/2011 10:11:19 AM

Now I'm confused, how could good leaders allow this? Also nothing changes if they do indeed kick the can again. We are still insolvent, still borrowing .40$ of every dollar we spend, and still printing $ till the end. Guns gold and silver till the end.

7/28/2011 12:05:52 PM

till the end

[Edited on July 28, 2011 at 2:45 PM. Reason : till the end]

7/28/2011 2:44:29 PM

I think we're in for Boehner tears tonight. One way or another.

7/28/2011 7:06:11 PM

7/29/2011 6:24:22 AM

^Yes we all know the only way to fix debt is with more debt. Why can't they just spend what they earn? There is 2.5 trillion in revenue, make it work clowns.

7/29/2011 11:46:22 AM

lets get the fuck out of the mideast. that should help

7/29/2011 1:10:47 PM

^This

7/29/2011 1:20:10 PM

The Tea Party nutjobs are definitely holding us all hostage right now.

7/29/2011 1:23:14 PM

But how can we protect freedom here if we aren't micromanaging every country on earth?

Quote :

"The Tea Party nutjobs are definitely holding us all hostage right now."

Not really. Continuing to take out more debt just means a worse crisis down the road. There isn't going to be a "good time" to start cutting, so we might as well get it over with. Both parties have their sacred cows, many of which need to be taken to slaughter.

[Edited on July 29, 2011 at 1:27 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2011 1:23:35 PM

Quote :

"There isn't going to be a "good time" to start cutting, so we might as well get it over with."

But there are "better times" to do the type of cutting we'll need to do within the next couple of decades. This is probably the worst time imaginable to start slashing.

7/29/2011 1:59:19 PM

Quote :

"Continuing to take out more debt"

Increasing the debt limit doesn't necessarily mean the country's debt will continue to increase out of control. If you want to stop incurring more debt, then adjust the budget. We get a new budget once a year, every year.

What increasing the debt limit by Tuesday will do is allow us to pay bills we've already incurred.

Of course, I'm not one of those people who believe all debt spending is bad.

I would agree with most that debt spending to blow shit up in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya is bad debt.

7/29/2011 2:08:41 PM

Quote :

"But there are "better times" to do the type of cutting we'll need to do within the next couple of decades. This is probably the worst time imaginable to start slashing."

The "better time" was 20 years ago. There will be no better time; things will only get worse. The United States is being crushed beneath the burden of it's debt. With every new wave of politicians, they will attempt to postpone the inevitable for 2-4 years.

7/29/2011 2:20:26 PM

Quote :

"The "better time" was 20 years ago. There will be no better time; things will only get worse. The United States is being crushed beneath the burden of it's debt. With every new wave of politicians, they will attempt to postpone the inevitable for 2-4 years. "

indeed sir

7/29/2011 2:33:18 PM

Do future cuts ever happen?

7/29/2011 2:41:10 PM

Quote :

"The United States is being crushed beneath the burden of it's debt."

Do you have any evidence to support that? 10-year treasury bonds are only 2.95%, even with the broken-down debt ceiling deal making headlines.

There's nothing forcing us to confront our debt issues RIGHT HERE AND NOW, even at the expense of the economy, other than hyperventilating Republicans.

7/29/2011 2:53:50 PM

1.3% GDP this morning

7/29/2011 3:01:23 PM

That's high, historically. It's not slash and burn high, though.



Entitlements are going to consume us in the next couple decades, but howsabout we wait until we're not in a sputtering recovery before we start slashing stuff.

[Edited on July 29, 2011 at 3:59 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2011 3:56:32 PM

Because that time isn't going to come. There's not going to be a recovery anytime soon. No matter how many Ph.D economists and administration officials tell us we're in a recovery, we're still in a recession, and things are getting worse.

The gig's up, for real. Now we have to figure out how to return to legitimate growth, but it requires major changes in how the government operates. Hint: the solution won't come out of Washington.

7/29/2011 4:07:49 PM

Oh man-- I just remembered to whom I was talking.

When's the hyperinflation coming? Are you stocking up on gold coins and boxes of .223?

7/29/2011 4:51:51 PM

Remember when you were saying things are about to get better two years ago? Yeah, me too.

[Edited on July 29, 2011 at 4:54 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2011 4:54:22 PM

Given that I haven't yet resorted to cannibalism, I'd say my forecast was much more accurate than yours.

7/29/2011 4:59:04 PM

So, things have gotten worse, and continue to get worse, and somehow you're the one that's right?

You won't find a post anywhere where I say something like "we're going to have hyperinflation in the next two years." Why? Because hyperinflation isn't inevitable. It could be prevented. What can't be prevented is a default in some form - whether it's us printing the difference or simply not paying bondholders.

Now, I don't think there's a very good chance at all of us ending bond payments. If that happened, the bond market would obviously crash. People would be scrambling to get out of treasuries. Once that happens, the deficit would have to be immediately cut...or the Fed would have to buy bonds.

Feel free to point out the flaws in my reasoning.

[Edited on July 29, 2011 at 5:06 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2011 5:03:57 PM

The flaw is quite obvious: the US has an ungainly tradition of debt aversion. This is why we are having a political knock-down drag-out right now even though our actual debt is no where near a problem.

7/29/2011 8:18:44 PM

Debt and printing money to finance the debt not a problem, tell me more. I thought once debt levels reach a certain % of GDP it begins to impede growth. We have seen a internet bubble a housing bubble and now a debt bubble. The fed kept rates low to stem the losses from the internet bubble and jump start the economy with cheap $$. That money poured into housing. That went bust and the losses were transferred to to the public through printing $ , asset swaps etc. We have not seen a non bubble economy in 20+ years, all the while levering up through a flood of cheap $. I just dont see this getting better, in our current system. We have had GDP to debt ratios this high in ww2 but the $$ was spent on factories, energy , roads etc while producing the Tanks etc win WW2, things that made the post war boom. Shoveling $$$ at banks and covering losses does nothing for the real economy. How do you expect a consumer driven economy to survive when the debt engine is deflating? The expansion of monetary base has not sparked severe inflation, it has been offset by the banks suffering deleverging. Banks are stuffing cash in their vaults so they can pretend to have the ratio requirements to not be insolvent. They have massive losses to cover even at the fairy tale prices they have them marked on the books. You' re telling me they can roll it again? I wanna know how, and do it with the debt engine insolvent and its workhorse the dollar smashed?

7/29/2011 9:24:38 PM

Quote :

"Freshman U.S. Rep. Joe Walsh, a tax-bashing Tea Party champion who sharply lectures President Barack Obama and other Democrats on fiscal responsibility, owes more than $100,000 in child support to his ex-wife and three children, according to documents his ex-wife filed in their divorce case in December. “I won’t place one more dollar of debt upon the backs of my kids and grandkids unless we structurally reform the way this town spends money!” Walsh says directly into the camera in his viral video lecturing Obama on the need to get the nation’s finances in order. Walsh starts the video by saying, “President Obama, quit lying. Have you no shame, sir? In three short years, you’ve bankrupted this country.” In court documents, after his ex-wife, Laura Walsh, asked a judge to suspend his driver’s license until he paid his child support, Joe Walsh asks his ex-wife’s lawyer: “Have you no decency?” "

http://www.suntimes.com/mobile/6720892-463/tea-party-rep.-joe-walsh-sued-for-100000-in-child-support

Fast forward to 2:20 mark

Quote :

"“I won’t place one more dollar of debt upon the backs of my kids and grandkids unless we structurally reform the way this town spends money!” "

7/29/2011 9:41:55 PM

Quote :

"Update:Walsh to Obama, I'll stop lying when you do."

7/29/2011 10:15:37 PM

7/30/2011 8:24:48 AM

7/30/2011 9:37:24 AM

Quote :

"Debt and printing money to finance the debt not a problem, tell me more. I thought once debt levels reach a certain % of GDP it begins to impede growth."

It does, but it isn't a problem yet in the sense that Greece has a problem. We Americans are suffering only from slower growth due to our debt, not an economic collapse, and we are probably a decade or more away from such. Yet, today, we are having fierce battles in Congress to reign in our debt, something Greece didn't have until after the debt induced economic collapse arrived.

7/30/2011 11:01:17 AM

http://www.youtube.com/user/RepJoeWalsh

7/30/2011 11:10:33 AM

Quote :

"We Americans are suffering only from slower growth due to our debt, not an economic collapse, and we are probably a decade or more away from such."

What case is there that debt is even slowing our current growth? Look at bond rates and the reserves businesses are sitting on. Or how the Fed is having trouble weening banks of what... 0.25%(?) interest on excess reserves.

7/30/2011 11:54:48 AM

As we come close to hitting the debt limit, the interest rate on treasures has fallen further. This is not money printed from the federal reserve, this is the nation's investment capital that is being dumped into treasuries at $1.27 trillion a year. Meanwhile, in 2010 the net private investment was only $177 billion. As such, of all the available savings, the vast majority of it is going to the government, depriving the economy more than it otherwise would.

7/30/2011 12:18:49 PM

Yes, investment is going to the government, but I'm arguing that with gov't only offering 0-3% interest and with inflation being 2-3%, it's not like it's robbing the private sector of investment. I seems as if if it weren't for the government, banks and businesses would be keeping their money under mattresses.

7/30/2011 1:05:06 PM

Quote :

"It does, but it isn't a problem yet in the sense that Greece has a problem. We Americans are suffering only from slower growth due to our debt, not an economic collapse, and we are probably a decade or more away from such. Yet, today, we are having fierce battles in Congress to reign in our debt, something Greece didn't have until after the debt induced economic collapse arrived."

Hahaha.

What would you cite as the main difference between the United States and Greece currently?

7/30/2011 1:43:19 PM

we sell debt. we are america and have our own exclusive powerful currency. we're nothing like greece and will never be.

7/30/2011 2:03:15 PM

Ability to pay off our debt.

Which wasn't going to come under doubt for a decade or two.*




*Until the Republicans gave people cause for concern.

7/30/2011 2:04:52 PM

Quote :

"it's not like it's robbing the private sector of investment. I seems as if if it weren't for the government, banks and businesses would be keeping their money under mattresses."

There is a wall near the zero point where banks have a compulsion to find lenders. Lenders have overhead, everything from employees to payments to depositors, they must lend their money to someone. The mattress is not and has never been an option. That they get to lend it all to the government is just fine to them. It is safe and pays something. But in this instance of a market failure, where banks are happy lending their money is not where it is socially optimal.

Quote :

"What would you cite as the main difference between the United States and Greece currently?"

We have the complete authority to print dollars, Greece does not have the authority to print Euros. The second cause is America has shown a strong historical ability to restrain spending and pay their debts when necessary. Not once in American history has the federal government defaulted. Greece defaulted a few times just in the 20th century.

7/30/2011 3:38:30 PM

Shouldn't we pay the money we owe? This money has already been committed.

What happens when you miss a credit card payment? Your mortgage?

[Edited on July 30, 2011 at 8:37 PM. Reason : ...]

7/30/2011 8:37:18 PM

Quote :

"Ability to pay off our debt. Which wasn't going to come under doubt for a decade or two.* "

oh, well then, no need to worry about it ever then. "Hey, honey, the bridge is out in a mile". "Fuck that, we still got a mile to go, FLOOR IT!"

7/30/2011 8:46:30 PM

^ Case in point. If you were Greek you wouldn't be mocking that position.

7/31/2011 1:57:34 AM

Quote :

"We have the complete authority to print dollars, Greece does not have the authority to print Euros. The second cause is America has shown a strong historical ability to restrain spending and pay their debts when necessary. Not once in American history has the federal government defaulted. Greece defaulted a few times just in the 20th century."

That's the right answer, but it's cause for alarm.

We essentially are defaulting every time we print money to cover our debts. As Kris has pointed out many times, we could pay off the entirety of our debt at any time, by simply creating the amount of money of needed.

The fact that you and others see reckless monetary policy as an "exit strategy" is troubling. When we pay bondholders with devalued currency, that's default, pure and simple. There's nothing else to call it; the bondholder is getting a haircut. The difference is that a "traditional" default would be honest. We'd look at the numbers, realize that there's no way of paying it off with the traditional austerity route, and say "sorry, we're not going to be able to pay up in full." What we're doing now is thoroughly dishonest, and I think it's going to blow up in our face.

7/31/2011 11:09:40 AM

Quote :

"The fact that you and others see reckless monetary policy as an "exit strategy" is troubling."

It's that it's an option. The difference between the US debt problems and those of Greece are like the difference between someone who owes someone that owes another person a lot of money and a man who owes his wife twenty "I love you"s. It's ridiculous that they are actually compared considering they are so different, and it's just plain dumb that the republicans think that they best way for us to get out of debt is to simply stop paying our bills.

7/31/2011 6:12:34 PM

We have plenty of revenue to pay "bills" with. It's the other shit that has to go. When they start talking about cutting military spending at all, you'll know that they're serious.

7/31/2011 7:08:31 PM

why not:

close 3/4 of our foreign bases

bring those troops home

build bases along our border for relocated troops

protect border, infuse money into our economy via construction, bring troops home, spend money at home rather than abroad

7/31/2011 7:32:41 PM

Quote :

"We have plenty of revenue to pay "bills" with."

I want to say "source needed" but It's not really even necessary. What you are talking about is fixing the budget, which is reasonable, but it is done at it's own time, what we are talking about now is paying our current commitments, which must be done. If you want to fix the budget, fix the budget, don't ruin our credit and just make our debt worse by squelching on payments we've committed to making.

7/31/2011 7:36:20 PM

^^ much of that is fine. but it doesn't fix everything. entitlements will dwarf military spending in 10 years and are projected to cost 50% of our GDP

Quote :

"don't ruin our credit and just make our debt worse by squelching on payments we've committed to making."

We shouldn't have any credit to begin with at this point. EVERYONE in power has shown time and time again that they don't care about the debt or the problems it WILL cause. Saying "let's get this done now and we'll fix the debt thing later" is like a crackhead saying "just give me some crack and get to the sobriety thing later"

7/31/2011 7:50:43 PM

Quote :

"why not: close 3/4 of our foreign bases bring those troops home build bases along our border for relocated troops protect border, infuse money into our economy via construction, bring troops home, spend money at home rather than abroad Build, rebuild and upgrade infrastructure."

7/31/2011 7:56:43 PM