BTW i'm not condoning my friends actions once pulled, i was just curious on the law. The only qualm I have is if legitimatly stopped at all 3 stop signs and the cop pulled him just to see if he could get anything.

5/19/2014 9:03:07 PM

I got pulled one time by a cop driving the opposite direction at night, he did a U Turn and pulled me. I knew I wasnt speeding as I had just pulled away from a red light. Thought maybe I had a light out or something. Guy walks up asks for my license then I ask him why I was pulled over. He said he saw that I wasnt wearing my seatbelt. I simply looked down at the large dark strap across my plain white shirt, looked back at him, looked back at the belt, back at him... he said thanks have a nice day and walked back to his car.

5/20/2014 8:50:45 AM

Except for ensuring ones kids buckle up, seat belt violations are fucking stupid.

One not wearing a seatbelt is not a public danger to other vehicle on the highway.

5/20/2014 9:00:37 AM

not wearing a seatbelt also makes you a danger to other people in the vehicle

5/20/2014 9:01:17 AM

So is playing with my CD player in traffic, driving while eating my McBurger, etc

5/20/2014 9:05:50 AM

and?

5/20/2014 9:12:05 AM

Quote :

"That's called police work."

So if you see a car driving at/just under the speed limit at 2:30am you will pull it to see if the driver has been drinking, even if the car isn't swerving or anything? That's police work?

Quote :

"In the past, I've seen wanted people driving, told them I stopped them for a tag light...confirmed the warrant and arrested them. I did it a lot with drunks too. It relaxes them, they think are they are just getting pulled for something stupid and that I have no idea they are drunk. I get them to talk to me (developing reasonable suspicion) and then have them step out. If I walk up there like billy badass and accuse them of drinking, they will just be dicks. "

So the drunks you pulled for a "tag light" you had suspected they were drunk because of their driving?

Quote :

"The only qualm I have is if legitimately stopped at all 3 stop signs and the cop pulled him just to see if he could get anything."

And boy did he ever get something! Restricted in this case, do you think the defendant will be able to get access to the dash cam footage which might show if he ran the stop sign?

^^ so is getting head from a hooker while driving. that too is not relevant.

5/20/2014 9:29:18 AM

I think the biggest beef we have here is cops pulling vehicles without probable cause. You can say that you never do that all ya want, but you have to admit that shit happens all the time.

5/20/2014 9:29:18 AM

I got a ticket for doing 30 in a 25. I was upset, but I fully cooperated with the cop.

5/20/2014 9:40:34 AM

Reasonable suspicion is the standard for traffic stops, not probable cause.

5/20/2014 11:41:46 AM

Ah so car pulling out of bar parking lot at 2:30am...I have a reasonable suspicion that the driver has been drinking, despite any evidence otherwise, so I'm allowed to pull over?

I was thinking probable cause to arrest I guess. My bad.

5/20/2014 11:53:17 AM

Quote :

"So if you see a car driving at/just under the speed limit at 2:30am you will pull it to see if the driver has been drinking, even if the car isn't swerving or anything? That's police work? "

Its much more complex than that, but at the same time, it isn't.

I have had over 100 hours of training in the detection and processing of impaired drivers and have investigated nearly nearly 200 incidents of impaired driving (thought its been awhile since I did this type of LE work).

Based on this training and my experience, I can articulate conducting a traffic stop on a vehicle when there is not a violation of traffic law present. This could include, time of day (2:30 am), proximity to drinking establishments, indicators of impaired driving that might not constitute a violation of traffic laws (slow to react to green lights, swerving inside of a lane, frequent use of the break*), etc.

*All these are scientifically validate cues that are admissible in court under State v. Bonds.

The same goes for drug stops; I've practiced it and have had it upheld in court. I have narcotic training, interdiction training, etc etc and have made xyz arrests for this drug, in this amount, etc.

Based on that, I could articulate making a stop on an out-of-town white driver (stranger to the area), in a predominately high crime, high drug neighborhood (this is a prong of reasonable suspicion) historically black neighborhood, during known high volume drug sale hours (time of day).

Now these are pretty simple examples and there is always more gray to wade through or cues that you might not understand, but that is what reasonable suspicion is.

5/20/2014 12:39:13 PM

Quote :

"Restricted in this case, do you think the defendant will be able to get access to the dash cam footage which might show if he ran the stop sign?"

Without a court case, you will need a FOIA. With a court case, you will need a subpoena pre-trial. Should be available during discovery should a trial be fixin to happen.

5/20/2014 12:40:32 PM

I was pulled leaving a bar at night because I "came to a complete stop too long" at a stop sign, those were the officers exact words. i was sober so i stalled on the breathalyzer for as long as possible to waste his time, 2 other cars came and were disappointed when i blew a 0. fuck tha police.

5/20/2014 12:57:07 PM

Quote :

"I can articulate conducting a traffic stop on a vehicle when there is not a violation of traffic law present. This could include, time of day (2:30 am), proximity to drinking establishments, indicators of impaired driving that might not constitute a violation of traffic laws (slow to react to green lights, swerving inside of a lane, frequent use of the break*), etc. "

Right, but what I asked was with just the time of day and proximity to drinking establishment (0 signs of impairment), is that enough?

Quote :

"Based on that, I could articulate making a stop on an out-of-town white driver (stranger to the area), in a predominately high crime, high drug neighborhood (this is a prong of reasonable suspicion) historically black neighborhood, during known high volume drug sale hours (time of day). "

Yeah that makes sense. Actually I was stopped under that exact same reasoning while I was in high school. Cop actually followed me out of the neighborhood and didn't pull me until we got away from it...said he tries not to stop his car there cause they throw shit at him. I guess I didn't really stop my car there much either...

Quote :

"but that is what reasonable suspicion is"

Thanks...your explanation does add some more depth to it.

[Edited on May 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM. Reason : ]

5/20/2014 1:34:13 PM

Lessons Learned: SCOTUS has truly bastardized the 4th amendment and given cops the power to do nearly what they please, when they please when it comes to stopping, detaining, and searching citizens.

5/20/2014 3:37:01 PM

Quote :

"Right, but what I asked was with just the time of day and proximity to drinking establishment (0 signs of impairment), is that enough?"

no, but throw, say, weaving within your lane into that scenario and that satisfies the reasonable suspicion requirement.

(dwi attorney speaking, not a cop)

5/20/2014 3:38:47 PM

weaving == not going perfectly straight

I know this from personal experience.

5/20/2014 3:43:14 PM

haha damn

- time of day
- proximity to drinking establishments
- out-of-town
- high crime high drug neighborhood
- black neighborhood
- time of day

this set of parameters really narrows things down. I bet at just about any point in time the majority of the human population falls under one of these very general and ambiguous categories at any given point in time.

sounds like you have been trained to be able to pull anyone over at any time pretty much anywhere under most any circumstances, then pull some bullshit excuse out of thin air to justify it.

i'm very pro-LE, and am very thankful for their presence and keeping the populace safe. I've never had serious run-ins with the law and stay fairly straight laced, and maybe never given some obtuse reason why I should be pulled over. but i'm very surprised at that response, that LE can essentially fabricate anything, and that would then fall under reasonable suspicion. i'm baffled.

5/20/2014 4:35:19 PM

Quote :

"Right, but what I asked was with just the time of day and proximity to drinking establishment (0 signs of impairment), is that enough?"

I would say no. That would be more of a hunch which reasonable suspicion is more than a than that.

Reasonable suspicion is fluid, living concept. It changes with case law, officer training/experience, circumstance, etc. If you make one of those stops, you must continue to develop the RS or find probable cause. Once your RS evaporates, its done. That is why a lot of inexperience drug guys get in trouble. They make a stop on the highway for a minor traffic violation and never develop RS to conduct the drug investigation in addition to the traffic violation.

Quote :

"sounds like you have been trained to be able to pull anyone over at any time pretty much anywhere under most any circumstances, then pull some bullshit excuse out of thin air to justify it."

You will always make a better case with a clear cut violation of the law. I had a situation like this a couple of weeks ago. I believed that I had enough RS to make a stop for a regulatory violation based on my training, experience and specialized law enforcement authority. Lucky for me, I drive an unmarked, grandpa mobile and was able to call some of my peers and a supervisor to bounce the scenario off of them. They all agreed I had enough to stop, but I went ahead and continued to follow them into a shopping center. When they got out, I parked away from them and out of sight and approached on foot. I said hello and introduced myself and asked if they didn't mind answering a few questions. They consented and I developed PC to charge them. So while I had RS to make the stop, I made to interaction a consensual encounter.

[Edited on May 20, 2014 at 5:32 PM. Reason : ...]

5/20/2014 5:32:21 PM

Quote :

"Lessons Learned: SCOTUS has truly bastardized the 4th amendment and given cops the power to do nearly what they please, when they please when it comes to stopping, detaining, and searching citizens."

Quote :

"but i'm very surprised at that response, that LE can essentially fabricate anything, and that would then fall under reasonable suspicion. i'm baffled."

This is why its so important that we have good people working in law enforcement. There are plenty of mouth breathers in my profession, that do the above. One of the reasons I'm leaving NC to go work in another State is the level of professionalism (or lack thereof) that I encounter in the field here. Not to say that there aren't some sharp, pipe hitting motherfuckers that work in N.C.

5/20/2014 5:35:34 PM

^^ What were the charges? Also what was your plan if they didn't consent to answering your questions?

5/20/2014 5:41:44 PM

Quote :

"This is why its so important that we have good people working in law enforcement."

*infinity

For every Restricted there are 38 assbag cops who give the profession the stigma it has. I had the joy of dealing with one of these in SC a couple of weeks ago...a total self-righteous type. I have noticed (in my personal experience) the educated ones tend to be far more professional and conscientious of the legal basis and case law that dictates their duties/abilities. It's the graduate-high-school-and-pass-the-BLET types that give people grief (again, personal experience).

Question: Whose responsibility is it to choose when/where/why to setup up checkpoint locations?

[Edited on May 20, 2014 at 5:50 PM. Reason : pregunta]

5/20/2014 5:48:22 PM

Quote :

"What were the charges? Also what was your plan if they didn't consent to answering your questions?"

I had a criminal charge and a regulatory penalty I was investigating; if they didn't consent, I would have told them they weren't free to leave. I had enough to make the case, but every bit helps.

Quote :

"Question: Whose responsibility is it to choose when/where/why to setup up checkpoint locations?"

Depends on the type, but usually someone who makes more money than I do.

5/20/2014 6:10:21 PM

Quote :

" I would have told them they weren't free to leave"

So how does that work? They wouldn't be under arrest, but they wouldn't be free to leave?

5/20/2014 6:25:54 PM

Quote :

"So how does that work?"

Terry v. Ohio.

With reasonable suspicion, a law enforcement officer can conduct a "Terry stop" or investigative detention to confirm or dispel that a crime has, is or about to occur. You cannot resist this, type of investigative detention (see. G.S. 14-223) and an officer can use force to initiate a "Terry stop."

5/20/2014 6:40:09 PM

And yes, I would cut a known TWW'er a break on a reasonable traffic violation. I've asked a few students I have stopped, but none of them would claim to be a member.

5/20/2014 6:41:46 PM

that is a great way to get current students to join TWW!

THIS DUDE WILL LET YOU OUT OF TICKETS IF YOU JOIN THIS WEBSITE!

5/20/2014 6:47:39 PM

Somebody has to save this place, once I bail out of the State, I might pull the plug on this and Site 2

5/20/2014 6:48:56 PM

Come on dude at least stick around on site 2.

5/20/2014 7:24:02 PM

To be fair if a cop asked me about the wolf web on a traffic stop I'd deny it. Because I would think they're using that for reason to search my car. REASONABLE SUSPICION.

5/20/2014 9:05:22 PM

Quote :

"One not wearing a seatbelt is not a public danger to other vehicle on the highway."

Like hell it isn't. If you have to violently maneuver your car you can be thrown from the seat, in which case your car becomes an unguided missile. Further, in a wreck your body can be launched from the vehicle and become an obstacle for other drivers.

5/20/2014 10:18:01 PM

Quote :

"Except for ensuring ones kids buckle up, seat belt violations are fucking stupid. "

So if you get in a wreck and the person is killed instead of just suffering injuries bc of no seat belt, you are cool with vastly increased penalties?

5/20/2014 10:46:34 PM

Quote :

"weaving == not going perfectly straight I know this from personal experience."

or driving straight but the lanes weave because of shitty paving and line painting jobs. I've known a couple of people that got pulled for suspicion of DUI along the horribly painted/paved section of Wake Forest Rd. They were sober at the time, although both of them were heading TO the bar when they got pulled.

5/20/2014 10:56:15 PM

Quote :

"One of the reasons I'm leaving NC to go work in another State is the level of professionalism"

Back to VA?

5/21/2014 8:32:30 AM

Quote :

"to confirm or dispel that a crime has, is or about to occur. You cannot resist this, type of investigative detention (see. G.S. 14-223) and an officer can use force to initiate a "Terry stop."

But if the subject doesn't cooperate and you don't see a bag of cash in the back of the car or whatever, how long can you detail without arrest if you can't confirm or dispel?

[Edited on May 21, 2014 at 1:32 PM. Reason : This is really interesting - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes]

[Edited on May 21, 2014 at 1:35 PM. Reason : Doesn't look like NC has a stop and identify law]

5/21/2014 1:23:00 PM

the how long part is in front of a few courts now

5/21/2014 1:35:34 PM

if you lose your license and get it back with limited privilage and/or breathalyzer thing and get pulled driving outside of operating hours how seriously do police usually take it?

same question for outside of location (like not directly to/from work - say you go to a friend's house downtown or something away from your direct route to work)

What if you have a good excuse like a funeral, job interview, looking at a house to rent/buy, etc.?

5/21/2014 2:20:52 PM

Quote :

"if you lose your license and get it back with limited privilage and/or breathalyzer thing and get pulled driving outside of operating hours how seriously do police usually take it?"

I guess how seriously police take it determines whether you get charged with driving while license revoked, but if you get charged you're pretty much fucked. the law was changed in december to punish people driving when revoked for impaired driving more harshly. DAs generally will not negotiate down from DWLR, which for an impaired driving revocation is a class 1 misdemeanor, and the judge almost certainly will not grant you a PJC, which you need to avoid losing your privilege and extending your suspension.

5/21/2014 4:38:38 PM

will i get in trouble if i break the law but i have real good excuse like i'm too stupid to get a ride or call a cab

5/21/2014 4:40:28 PM

Quote :

"if you lose your license and get it back with limited privilage and/or breathalyzer thing and get pulled driving outside of operating hours how seriously do police usually take it? same question for outside of location (like not directly to/from work - say you go to a friend's house downtown or something away from your direct route to work) What if you have a good excuse like a funeral, job interview, looking at a house to rent/buy, etc.?"

I would arrest you and take you before the magistrate who would rip up your driving privilege in front of you. It has only happened once or twice.

Quote :

"will i get in trouble if i break the law but i have real good excuse like i'm too stupid to get a ride or call a cab"

Of course not.

5/21/2014 4:56:28 PM

I wonder what the false positive rate is for traffic stops i.e. the police pulls someone with "reasonable suspicion" only to determine that they had done nothing wrong and since they didn't break any traffic laws they don't get a ticket.

5/21/2014 5:31:38 PM

do you ever profile any specific types of vehicles for stops?

5/21/2014 5:35:30 PM

Quote :

"I wonder what the false positive rate is for traffic stops i.e. the police pulls someone with "reasonable suspicion" only to determine that they had done nothing wrong and since they didn't break any traffic laws they don't get a ticket."

Happens all the time. Person was in the area to buy drugs, but never scored. Or they scored and ate the evidence or the dealer wouldn't sell. They were drinking, but not impaired or they just suck at driving.

Quote :

"do you ever profile any specific types of vehicles for stops?"

No. Criminals drive all sorts of vehicles.

5/21/2014 5:42:19 PM

Quote :

"No. Criminals drive all sorts of vehicles."

The key is the type of rims, right?

5/21/2014 6:11:10 PM

That would be a bias. To be honest, I've made more cases stopping ordinary cars than donks.

5/21/2014 6:44:37 PM

Here's what most people don't get about donks. Most donk owners are pretenders, the guys that are really breaking laws (drugs etc) are smart enough not to drive a shiny look at me car. I've owned a 95 Donk Caprice for the last 3 years, I'm as far from a drug dealer as it gets.

[Edited on May 21, 2014 at 6:51 PM. Reason : Also my donk is for sale if interested]

5/21/2014 6:46:38 PM

I switched insurance policies in January. This past March I got a letter from the NC DMV requesting to submit proof of insurance. After procrastinating 3 weeks, I went to the online website which the letter listed as an option for submitting proof.

About a week later I got another letter demanding I submit proof of insurance. Figuring the letter was sent (I don't check my mail everyday) before my online submittal was processed, I ignored the letter.

Today going into the long weekend, I got a letter from the DMV stating my license was revoked due to failure to submit proof insurance.

Will I get in trouble for driving? I can not go all weekend and should not be punished due to the NC DMV's crappy online system. In my car I have proof of my up-to-date insurance coverage.

5/23/2014 6:58:40 PM

Quote :

"After procrastinating 3 weeks"

Quote :

"Figuring the letter was sent (I don't check my mail everyday) before my online submittal was processed, I ignored the letter."

Quote :

"I got a letter from the DMV stating my license was revoked due to failure to submit proof "

Quote :

"ill I get in trouble for driving? I can not go all weekend and should not be punished due to the NC DMV's crappy online system."

Do you wear velcro shoes?

5/26/2014 8:49:49 PM

I don't need a gun, I've got a donk.

5/26/2014 10:37:31 PM